Jackson Carman At Bottom Of Depth Chart

[fredtoast]

(08-09-2021, 12:05 PM)XenoMorph Wrote:   IE drafting 3 guys doesnt help as much as if we signed some seasoned depth/ other to compete for starting spots. to go with a draft pick or 2.

Yoy mean like signing the 10th highest paid RT in the league?

[Frank Booth]

(08-09-2021, 12:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yoy mean like signing the 10th highest paid RT in the league?

Terrible value. Thankfully it’s a 1 year deal

[Luvnit2]

(08-09-2021, 12:04 PM)GodFather Wrote: So one example you have? Should I make the list of players who did get better with time? I think in the end my list will be longer.

You are the one making dumb claims and in bold (below). It took me 2 seconds to refute your ridiculous comment.

"That’s ridiculous. If a player is a day one starter from draft he will only get better in time"


I did not see the word may, just the word WILL!!! Make matter of fact statements and they need to be factual. This one was not.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-08-2021, 11:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Quit being nice

We’re in an argument here!

Wanted to leave on a good note last night. Now we can get back to it!

(08-09-2021, 11:37 AM)GodFather Wrote: For sure, love the Reiff pick up. Let’s hope this line is able to protect our biggest asset this season!

Think it will, happy to hear about D'Ante playing so good already and up to 320 pounds.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-09-2021, 12:42 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Terrible value. Thankfully it’s a 1 year deal

BS!!!

Extend Reiff if he plays well this season.

[GodFather]

(08-09-2021, 12:52 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You are the one making dumb claims and in bold (below). It took me 2 seconds to refute your ridiculous comment.

"That’s ridiculous. If a player is a day one starter from draft he will only get better in time"


I did not see the word may, just the word WILL!!! Make matter of fact statements and they need to be factual. This one was not.

You refuted nothing, I put more thought into what to order on a fast food menu than your comments quality.

[BengalChris]

(08-08-2021, 06:19 PM)Emeritus Wrote: This is Zacs team now and the owner said it with conviction. So lets not start this narrative. Its Zacs TEAM.

Oh, you were taking me literally. I was making fun.

I've wanted him gone after 2 wins. He's already overstayed his welcome as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Shake n Blake]

(08-08-2021, 08:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wow, sounds like we don't have a LT or a RT now...

Jonah Williams and Riley Reiff do not exist.

The line is comprised of 5 positions, Nate.

(08-08-2021, 08:15 PM)Joelist Wrote: This gets a bit boring. Carman is learning a new position and the coaches have said he is starting to get it. But many of the same bunch who were loudly advocating to draft Sewell just have to talk down Carman for some reason. 

What is boring is pretending people are saying Carman is trash when Luvnits poll proved that there's only 1-2 guys on here who actually think that way. The rest have simply expressed legitimate concerns that (a) we didn't do enough to improve the line and (b) that Carman is off to a rough start.

It's the other side that's flipping a wig over it. No one is saying the season is over, and no one is saying Carman is a wasted pick or any other hyperbolic nonsense. Outside of one guy. You guys are just doing that thing where you pretend people's opinions are far more extreme than they actually are, because it's easier to argue against an extreme and irrational stance.

[Hammerstripes]

(08-09-2021, 11:46 AM)tms Wrote: Are you from the straw man factory? We were looking for you. We were running out of supplies to protect our we-don't-ever-need-to-do-anything crops, and you came through like divine intervention. Nice to see.

Your two questions can sort of be grouped together. If motivation is not his problem, then he's not good enough. Would that not be worse? Given the depth of the draft class, we were promised somebody who would be good enough and somebody who would be slotted in there right now. Urgency was the word of the day. This wasn't a 'project' draft for us, we did not have that luxury. Our QB had had his knee theismann'd, and we were told that we would do everything in our power to protect him from this day forward (FA, draft and coach). Literally nobody was saying, "We're gonna snag a backup guard in R2 and see what happens a few years down the road"- there would have been fireworks. That was not the bargain. Nobody was talking about a backup IOL at his presser. So motivation would be the lesser of the two evils here. You don't want him not being good enough, as it would imply outright negligence in view of the "deepest draft class" in recent memory.

So ok, they chose Carman as their horse, now they gotta ride him. Camp started with the "you have to earn it!" rhetoric. Which is all well and good, even intuitive, but I don't hear such an emphasis being placed on "earning" it in... Vegas with Leatherwood, KC with Creed (and Trey Smith for that matter), NY with AVT, Denver with Meinerz, Zim with Wyatt Davis, on down the line, whether they're starting or not. This is professional football, after all. These draft picks needn't be reminded of having to earn it if they have their head screwed on straight. Hell, I don't even see them talking about that in Chicago with Teven, who hasn't taken a rep yet- or Borom, who's been his replacement. The mere fact that you're hearing about it over and over in Cincinnati is not a good sign. Of course it implies motivation issues.

Which is only reinforced by the fact that they played MICHAEL FREAKING JORDAN with the starters yesterday. Is that part of the master plan to protect Joe too? To move the same guy who literally apologized to Burrow for being bull-rushed so bad by J Allen that Burrow had to spend the next 8 months in recovery, just to the other side of the line? No, they're running out of wrenches in the toolkit and resorting to this. It's not like Carman is waiting behind Alan Faneca. You can't even argue they're showing him "tough love" since his rookie peer was out there with the starters on the other side. So feel free turn and look the other way if you want to, but it would just be more of the same. 

They needed a plug and play, we were promised a plug and play, and he's been anything but a plug and play. That's evident. He's sliding on the depth chart before playing in any games. That's also evident. So while I appreciate your straw men, you should save them for next April when they can be of better use. 

We were not promised a plug and play guy.  All I heard was that he would have a learning curve moving inside and that the long term plan would be that he could replace Reiff.  Nothing like that sounds like plug and play.  Why in the world would Carman be considered plug and play when he never played OG in college?

[*Nately120*]

(08-09-2021, 04:33 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Oh, you were taking me literally. I was making fun.

I've wanted him gone after 2 wins. He's already overstayed his welcome as far as I'm concerned.

 

Meh, I'll give him one more year but I will say that as soon as ZT won 2 games and got us in place to pick Burrow I was 97% sure that was going to be his greatest contribution to this organization.  

[BengalChris]

(08-09-2021, 06:22 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, I'll give him one more year but I will say that as soon as ZT won 2 games and got us in place to pick Burrow I was 97% sure that was going to be his greatest contribution to this organization.  

LOL

 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-09-2021, 05:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The line is comprised of 5 positions, Nate.



What is boring is pretending people are saying Carman is trash when Luvnits poll proved that there's only 1-2 guys on here who actually think that way. The rest have simply expressed legitimate concerns that (a) we didn't do enough to improve the line and (b) that Carman is off to a rough start.

It's the other side that's flipping a wig over it. No one is saying the season is over, and no one is saying Carman is a wasted pick or any other hyperbolic nonsense. Outside of one guy. You guys are just doing that thing where you pretend people's opinions are far more extreme than they actually are, because it's easier to argue against an extreme and irrational stance.

I getcha here Shake, it is just too early to know who is correct on whether they did enough or not.

D'Ante Smith and even Michael Jordan looked good when I recently watched them. Same with Trey Hill and of course Jonah.

This is good not bad. No point in saying they didn't do enough until we truly know. Pollack may not be a miracle worker but I 
guarantee he is better than Turner.

[fredtoast]

(08-09-2021, 11:46 AM)tms Wrote: Are you from the straw man factory? We were looking for you. We were running out of supplies to protect our we-don't-ever-need-to-do-anything crops, and you came through like divine intervention. Nice to see.

You clearly do not even know what a "straw man" argument is.  I used direct quotes you made.  I did not twist what you were saying at all.

(08-09-2021, 11:46 AM)tms Wrote: Your two questions can sort of be grouped together. If motivation is not his problem, then he's not good enough. Would that not be worse? 

There is a third option.  He just has to make adjustments to the NFL game.  

Interesting that a "draftnick" like you could not answer my question about how many second round rookies start opening day and how many of them "lack the focus for the NFL"?

Last years leaders in rushing yards (Derrick Henry), receptions and receiving yards (Stephon Diggs), and receiving td (Devonte Adams) all failed to win a starting job opening day of their rookie season.  So are you saying all of these guys lacked motivation?

(08-09-2021, 11:46 AM)tms Wrote:  Nobody was talking about a backup IOL at his presser.

No one was saying he was an automatic starter either.  Since you seem to have some memory problems here is the exact quote
Could you see Carman being the opening day starter at LG?

"I don't want to make any predictions. We'll see how quickly they can adapt to life in the NFL. I certainly think he's going to compete for an opportunity to be a starting player for us."

[Joelist]

Carman will be fine and will be our RG. Spain will be LG and XSF first off the bench. I suspect everyone is bored and taking a "depth chart" prior to the first preseason game WAY too seriously. And realistically with Burrow not suiting up this is as good a time as any to see whether Jordan has improved in any real way.

Now to me they need to set the first and second teams before the second preseason game so they can work together and gain cohesion.

[tms]

(08-09-2021, 06:13 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: We were not promised a plug and play guy.  All I heard was that he would have a learning curve moving inside and that the long term plan would be that he could replace Reiff.  Nothing like that sounds like plug and play.  Why in the world would Carman be considered plug and play when he never played OG in college?

Please ask them that! Don't frame it like I was ever for playing Carman inside- or playing Carman anywhere lol. I didn't want Carman at all. I'm just holding them to account for what they said. Of course there's a learning curve! But that was (allegedly) factored into the equation. I remember hearing 'them' say that he was more polished than Penei for playing one year at RG, before swinging him outside in year two. Fine. I won't argue.

The logic was that the drop-off from Chase to < insert R2 wideout here > was greater than Sewell to < insert R2 OL here >. Period, full stop, point finale. We could get a receiver to go over the top of the defense and a cog to reinforce the matador-esque line that put Burrow on the shelf, with our first two picks; and the OL was sooo deep that there were more than enough names from which to choose. Again, fine. Their call. Point being, we weren't looking for projects at either position. This didn't happen that long ago! It is absolute revisionist history to say that people would have been content with that . This is a team that won 4 games last year, and we were coming out of there with at least two new starters- come hell or high water.

Problem is, we couldn't even do that right. We went off the board in R2 for... god knows knows what reason... probably starts with "Fairfield" and ends in "High School"... and today, barely three months later, our R4 is slotted higher on the depth chart than said R2. Our R2 is already making headlines for all the wrong reasons. In fact, if things don't change over the next month, we'll be rolling with 4 of the 5 starters from last year. No matter how you look at it, that is scandalous.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-09-2021, 11:10 PM)tms Wrote: Please ask them that! Don't frame it like I was ever for playing Carman inside- or playing Carman anywhere lol. I didn't want Carman at all. I'm just holding them to account for what they said. Of course there's a learning curve! But that was (allegedly) factored into the equation. I remember hearing 'them' say that he was more polished than Penei for playing one year at RG, before swinging him outside in year two. Fine. I won't argue.

The logic was that the drop-off from Chase to < insert R2 wideout here > was greater than Sewell to < insert R2 OL here >. Period, full stop, point finale. We could get a receiver to go over the top of the defense and a cog to reinforce the matador-esque line that put Burrow on the shelf, with our first two picks; and the OL was sooo deep that there were more than enough names from which to choose. Again, fine. Their call. Point being, we weren't looking for projects at either position. This didn't happen that long ago! It is absolute revisionist history to say that people would have been content with that . This is a team that won 4 games last year, and we were coming out of there with at least two new starters- come hell or high water.

Problem is, we couldn't even do that right. We went off the board in R2 for... god knows knows what reason... probably starts with "Fairfield" and ends in "High School"... and today, barely three months later, our R4 is slotted higher on the depth chart than said R2. Our R2 is already making headlines for all the wrong reasons. In fact, if things don't change over the next month, we'll be rolling with 4 of the 5 starters from last year. No matter how you look at it, that is scandalous.

I will remember you said this when Carman ends up being our best Guard.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-09-2021, 12:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wanted to leave on a good note last night. Now we can get back to it!


Think it will, happy to hear about D'Ante playing so good already and up to 320 pounds.

Violence is never the answer, Nate.

Unless the question is, "what does v,i,o,l,e,n,c,e spell?"

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-09-2021, 11:20 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Violence is never the answer, Nate.

Unless the question is, "what does v,i,o,l,e,n,c,e spell?"

Depends on your opponent. 

[tms]

(08-09-2021, 10:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Interesting that a "draftnick" like you could not answer my question about how many second round rookies start opening day and how many of them "lack the focus for the NFL"?

I didn't answer your straw man questions because they are straw men. They are irrelevant. There are too many issues to unpack in your post, but you can go back to what I wrote earlier to find some clarity. I'd just be repeating myself here. 

The above is a straw man, tho. You need to know that. All the second-rounders in history (forget about the only ones you seem to know: namely those who play fantasy football positions) have nothing to do with our situation in Cincinnati, even less to do with our context heading into that draft and what we sought to accomplish in view of the talent available - - - and the specific urgency around our team - - - - - and what had been said throughout the course of the season in terms of what we planned to do. "We're going to draft and develop offensive linemen this year" is not a new strategy, it's not a strategy you should be impressed by. You better be fortifying your trenches every year. This is football ffs. If you're saying that they tried something new and made progress merely by drafting three linemen, a) you would be wrong; b) that's not what this is even about. They needed immediate help, and they promised to get immediate help. (Btw, I'd say your quote from Zac is as close as it gets to endorsing what I just wrote. Nobody's anointed a starter on draft day. But if the word 'starter' is invoked, you better believe that's what they have in mind.)

Either way, I gave you more than enough guys- OFFENSIVE LINEMEN- who are in camp for other teams right now and faring well. What's more, many of them have joined OLs far superior to ours, yet could still win starting positions by the time we reach September. It doesn't make us look good. And again, I could care less how long it took DERRICK HENRY to get on the field. It has as much to do with what we're talking about as comparing Jackson Carman to Javonte Williams: that is, not at all. Let's stay on topic.

[Passepartout]

OL is very important. Really they set the tone of the game. QB's, WR's, and RB's get a lot of attention. But the OL receives little credit but they are the x-factor on it.