Jim Turner comments

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-01-2020, 05:05 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I prefer the far less used, yet still pretty apt, Ketchuphead. 

Not a bad one either..... Ol Paul Heinz.....

[*ochocincos*]

(10-01-2020, 12:49 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I just checked Bobby Harts PFF score at it's 65 for the year.  Jonah, I believe was, 66.

Did PFF change their rating system?  Because the way it used to work was these would have put them smack damn in the middle of a "backup" grade.

I'm pretty sure 60-69 is backup, starter is 70-84, I think 84-89 is like Pro Bowl, and 90-100 is elite.  And I think anything under 60 is replaceable.

So unless something has changed, Bobby Hart is currently clocking somewhere around the level you would expect for 48th best RT in the league.

To the person who claimed it, how is that average, or slightly below?  He needs to be at like a 75-77 for that to be true, would he not?

They didn't really "change" their system.
A solid starter is considered 70-80. 80-90 is considered upper-tier. 90+ is considered elite.
Below 70 is considered room for improvement, but still a starter.
Below 60 is considered bad.

The player ratings are deceiving. You need to look at the run and pass protection breakdown, as they combine those into a single rating.


Bobby Hart is the NFL's 42nd rated OT.
Jonah is 38th.
With that said, only 32 have a rating of 70+, which means only half of the NFL's starting OTs are doing what's considered to be solid or better.

When looking closer at the breakdown....
Hart - 57.0 pass blocking (which is bad), 75.3 run blocking (which is good)

A big problem the Bengals have is only two OL (Williams, Hopkins) have a pass blocking grade above 60. They both have 70+ actually.
And only one OL (Hart) has a run blocking grade above 60.

So it's not that the ratings are changed necessarily, it's that performance is down across the league.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-01-2020, 05:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They didn't really "change" their system.
A solid starter is considered 70-80. 80-90 is considered upper-tier. 90+ is considered elite.
Below 70 is considered room for improvement, but still a starter.
Below 60 is considered bad.

The player ratings are deceiving. You need to look at the run and pass protection breakdown, as they combine those into a single rating.


Bobby Hart is the NFL's 42nd rated OT.
Jonah is 38th.
With that said, only 32 have a rating of 70+, which means only half of the NFL's starting OTs are doing what's considered to be solid or better.

When looking closer at the breakdown....
Hart - 57.0 pass blocking (which is bad), 75.3 run blocking (which is good)

A big problem the Bengals have is only two OL (Williams, Hopkins) have a pass blocking grade above 60. They both have 70+ actually.
And only one OL (Hart) has a run blocking grade above 60.

So it's not that the ratings are changed necessarily, it's that performance is down across the league.

Which is alarming, actually. What the hell has happened? You read things about the college offenses not preparing these guys, but then see elements of the spread in the pro game. I know pass rushers are much better these days, but that must mean ours suck! LoL. It's crazy to see just how bad blocking has gotten. 

[BengalFanInNJ]

What's Jonah's pass block grade?

[Yojimbo]

(10-01-2020, 04:48 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: I believe Hart has also faced the most passing plays of any RT in the league.

They've run nearly twice as many passing plays as the likes of the Eagles and Ravens.

I'm not saying that he's good btw, only that that's not necessarily the stat to make the point you are trying to make.

Two things:

1) If he’s getting so much experience at pass protecting, he should be getting better.

2) PFF grades on efficiency, so they do take into account number of snaps and Hart is only rated better than two OT’s in the entire league at pass blocking efficiency, Jaron Christian - WAS and Andrew Thomas - NYG

[WVUHomer]

(10-01-2020, 05:54 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Two things:

1) If he’s getting so much experience at pass protecting, he should be getting better.

2) PFF grades on efficiency, so they do take into account number of snaps and Hart is only rated better than two OT’s in the entire league at pass blocking efficiency, Jaron Christian - WAS and Andrew Thomas - NYG

Considering there were plenty of people who wanted Thomas, I find that surprising. I would have sworn Thomas would be better

[Yojimbo]

(10-01-2020, 06:09 PM)WVUHomer Wrote: Considering there were plenty of people who wanted Thomas, I find that surprising. I would have sworn Thomas would be better

Well, he is a rookie and I think he was considered a better run blocker than pass blocker. We’ll see where his pass blocking is after he’s a five year vet like Hart.

[KillerGoose]

(10-01-2020, 05:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: They didn't really "change" their system.
A solid starter is considered 70-80. 80-90 is considered upper-tier. 90+ is considered elite.
Below 70 is considered room for improvement, but still a starter.
Below 60 is considered bad.

The player ratings are deceiving. You need to look at the run and pass protection breakdown, as they combine those into a single rating.


Bobby Hart is the NFL's 42nd rated OT.
Jonah is 38th.
With that said, only 32 have a rating of 70+, which means only half of the NFL's starting OTs are doing what's considered to be solid or better.

When looking closer at the breakdown....
Hart - 57.0 pass blocking (which is bad), 75.3 run blocking (which is good)

A big problem the Bengals have is only two OL (Williams, Hopkins) have a pass blocking grade above 60. They both have 70+ actually.
And only one OL (Hart) has a run blocking grade above 60.

So it's not that the ratings are changed necessarily, it's that performance is down across the league.

I am currently working through the Eagles game, watching the All-22 film and this is what I have seen as well (in regard to Hart). He is a solid run blocker, and I have found myself surprised at how well he has done in his run blocking assignments. He is aggressive and moves his defender.

When it comes to pass blocking, however, he looks so weak. He struggles to plant his hands on the defender and he struggles with the bull rush. Early on, Graham was able to swat Hart’s hands away and get around him but Burrow was able to get the ball out quickly, so it didn’t go down as a pressure. I still counted it as a loss for Hart, however.

Also a note, I have seen two pressures so far that were allowed by wide receivers. In the first quarter, Burrow missed a wide open Tyler Boyd. He threw a duck and Tyler Boyd slipped trying to stop and turn around for it. This was because Auden state was kept in to block and was tasked with picking up a corner blitz. He missed the block and the corner got to Burrow before he could hit Boyd.

Later on, on the play where Burrow was nearly beheaded, he was originally under pressure due to Boyd being tasked with a block-and-release on the defensive end on the near side. The end obviously got around Boyd, forced Burrow out of his roll out and right into the interior pressure from Jackson.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

[*Synric*]

That is the thing the offensive guards are playing so badly it makes Bobby Hart look better. They need to attack the RG and RT positions in the offseason while also trying to have a competition at LG.

They also need to continue rebuilding their defensive line.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-01-2020, 03:04 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Jordan and whoever has replaced XSF whether that be Price or Johnson has made everyone look worse. 5 of the 8 sacks Sunday were on Burrow. Fletcher Cox was a monster he was supposed to be banged up.

Still don’t buy it was that many, but ok, what about how he’s getting hit after nearly every throw? It’s not just the sacks. They NEVER keep him clean.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-01-2020, 08:16 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Still don’t buy it was that many, but ok, what about how he’s getting hit after nearly every throw? It’s not just the sacks. They NEVER keep him clean.

If you watch closely, most NFL QBs are not "kept clean" on the majority of the their passing attempts.  OL talent is down in the NFL, and has been on that trend for several years.  Thank the HS and college game for the spread, quick hit offenses that allow their linemen to proceed to the higher levels without being capable of blocking in the traditional capacities.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-01-2020, 08:22 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If you watch closely, most NFL QBs are not "kept clean" on the majority of the their passing attempts.  OL talent is down in the NFL, and has been on that trend for several years.  Thank the HS and college game for the spread, quick hit offenses that allow their linemen to proceed to the higher levels without being capable of blocking in the traditional capacities.

Oh c’mon, other QB’s are not getting hit anywhere close to the amount Joe is right now. The QB’s that are lucky enough to face our DL certainly aren’t...

[Big_Ern]

(10-01-2020, 06:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I am currently working through the Eagles game, watching the All-22 film and this is what I have seen as well (in regard to Hart). He is a solid run blocker, and I have found myself surprised at how well he has done in his run blocking assignments. He is aggressive and moves his defender.

When it comes to pass blocking, however, he looks so weak. He struggles to plant his hands on the defender and he struggles with the bull rush. Early on, Graham was able to swat Hart’s hands away and get around him but Burrow was able to get the ball out quickly, so it didn’t go down as a pressure. I still counted it as a loss for Hart, however.

Also a note, I have seen two pressures so far that were allowed by wide receivers. In the first quarter, Burrow missed a wide open Tyler Boyd. He threw a duck and Tyler Boyd slipped trying to stop and turn around for it. This was because Auden state was kept in to block and was tasked with picking up a corner blitz. He missed the block and the corner got to Burrow before he could hit Boyd.

Later on, on the play where Burrow was nearly beheaded, he was originally under pressure due to Boyd being tasked with a block-and-release on the defensive end on the near side. The end obviously got around Boyd, forced Burrow out of his roll out and right into the interior pressure from Jackson.

Then he should just run block on passing downs. Won't be a worse result and at least he'll be the aggressor

[Au165]

(10-01-2020, 06:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: When it comes to pass blocking, however, he looks so weak. He struggles to plant his hands on the defender and he struggles with the bull rush. Early on, Graham was able to swat Hart’s hands away and get around him but Burrow was able to get the ball out quickly, so it didn’t go down as a pressure. I still counted it as a loss for Hart, however.

Hart guesses in pass blocking sets rather than relying on technique. What that results in is reps where he misses horribly and others when he guesses right that are manageable. Elite guys have set him up all year, essentially forcing him to guess wrong on each rep and making him look silly. He has guessed right a couple of times against elite guys like Bosa and Garrett and won the reps but they are few and far between.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-01-2020, 08:16 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Still don’t buy it was that many, but ok, what about how he’s getting hit after nearly every throw? It’s not just the sacks. They NEVER keep him clean.

Burrow has been sacked 14 times in 3 games.

Sacks allowed by the OL according to PFF (Washington Post has similar total but gave 1 more to Williams and 1 less to Johnson):
Williams - 1
Jordan - 0
Hopkins - 0
Johnson - 1
Hart - 2
Price - 1
-------------------
Total - 5

So Burrow is blamed for a majority of the sacks.

However, I've watched the games too and opponents are getting to him way too fast. Could he maybe throw away the ball faster to avoid a sack? Probably, but he wants to try to make a play. OL needs to be able to block more than 2 seconds.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-01-2020, 12:53 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: We have faced 3 Great Dlines relax. If Jags dominate us up front then I will be concerned. I actually think all 3 are better than Ravens as well. Fletcher Cox was an absolute animal last game. He was probably their MVP had they won.

I like you but this quote bothers me; I do understand where you're coming from and I'm not disagreeing with the point you made.  Here's my thinking:  It should not matter how great a defensive line is because it's up to the coaching staff to get players ready to face anybody.  The Bengals will never become a consistent playoff team again until the idea of being the best is inculcated in every player.  The great teams live for playing other great teams. 

[fredtoast]

Hart is not playing well. But people need to realize that the back ups could be much worse.

I am not defending Hart, but I don't know how many times I have heard the same line about multiple different Bengal players "the backup COULDN'T be any worse" when the fact is that yes, that back up could be worse.

[lone bengal]

We’ve blamed Alexander, Pollack, and Turner for the offensive line issues. And blamed Marvin, Austin and Lou for the defense Tobin is the one constant. In Turners defense what do you want him to say Hart sucks ? The Bengals probably didn’t want to pay a top free agent RT and Johnson blows so we’re stuck with Hart. Turner didn’t draft Billy Price he benched him and moved Hopkins to center which was a good move. Willams and Jordan are his guys and the Jury is still out on them and who even knows if Tobin made the call on those guys ? RG is a mess because we refuse to spend on guards and have so many other holes we can’t address every need in the draft. And to top that Glenn was brought in before Turner which is another headache he had to deal with.

[Shake n Blake]

Maybe Turner's job is on the line if Hart fails? I can't see any other good reason to defend his play. Maybe he thinks Mikey will be dumb enough to believe him.