(06-26-2018, 01:25 PM)cooper Wrote: we needed two offensive linemen and you dont take someone that is a top ten pick ( aside from quarterback) that is developmental
The Bengals knew there was a need for OL, but clearly they didn't think any of the OL in the draft were worth a top 10 pick. If they would have taken an OL in the top 10 in the 2017 draft, you'd have seen some people saying the Bengals reached way too far vs going BPA.
IMO the Bengals had a plan going into that draft...
Take a blend of BPA with elite traits that would be a need in 1-2 years but could afford to have them groomed for a year or two if needed.
I think it came down to John Ross or OJ Howard.
If Ross, the Bengals likely felt they had LaFell as a stopgap while Ross was groomed. If Howard, they had at least a year with Eifert as the lead guy.
They followed this same approach all the years prior with WJ3, Ogbuehi, Dennard, Eifert, and Kirkpatrick.
Wanting the Bengals to draft primarily based on need is just something that is most often wishful thinking because we know how they typically operate.
Maybe that changes though with this kind-of-new regime, as we've seen with the selection of Billy Price. It was a definite change from how they've typically approached the early rounds for years.
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Patience has paid off!
(06-26-2018, 11:29 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Needing to sharpen his routes (as I interpret as sloppy route running) and not having route recognition are two different things.
I interpret not having route recognition as not being capable of running more than a few simple routes or often running the wrong routes altogether. Someone can run sloppy routes but still be running the proper route as assigned.
So I'm with Xeno in that I haven't seen any reports stating he has trouble grasping a playbook and/or limited route tree experience.
Completely agree Ocho.
(06-26-2018, 01:26 PM)cooper Wrote: sloppy route running in the NFL gets you benched in the NFL
Gronk runs sloppy routes for heck sake and he just might be the best TE of all time.
John Ross will clean it up. He has no trouble with route recognition, he is a very smart football player.
(06-26-2018, 02:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Gronk runs sloppy routes for heck sake and he just might be the best TE of all time.
John Ross will clean it up. He has no trouble with route recognition, he is a very smart football player.
I don't think he is going to change his mind. I was asked to "ease up" on him so to speak. But at this point, there's no sense in arguing with him. He hates Ross. And he just keeps repeating himself.
(06-26-2018, 01:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The Bengals knew there was a need for OL, but clearly they didn't think any of the OL in the draft were worth a top 10 pick. If they would have taken an OL in the top 10 in the 2017 draft, you'd have seen some people saying the Bengals reached way too far vs going BPA.
IMO the Bengals had a plan going into that draft...
Take a blend of BPA with elite traits that would be a need in 1-2 years but could afford to have them groomed for a year or two if needed.
I think it came down to John Ross or OJ Howard.
If Ross, the Bengals likely felt they had LaFell as a stopgap while Ross was groomed. If Howard, they had at least a year with Eifert as the lead guy.
They followed this same approach all the years prior with WJ3, Ogbuehi, Dennard, Eifert, and Kirkpatrick.
Wanting the Bengals to draft primarily based on need is just something that is most often wishful thinking because we know how they typically operate.
Maybe that changes though with this kind-of-new regime, as we've seen with the selection of Billy Price. It was a definite change from how they've typically approached the early rounds for years.
Had they not taken a C early this year, I think I would have lost what's left of my mind.
(06-26-2018, 02:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: Had they not taken a C early this year, I think I would have lost what's left of my mind.
Probably me as well, but would it have really been that surprising if they decided to go with a different position and wait to address C later, which is what they were accustomed to doing?
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Patience has paid off!
(06-26-2018, 02:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Probably me as well, but would it have really been that surprising if they decided to go with a different position and wait to address C later, which is what they were accustomed to doing?
Completely agree with you. I was expecting them to pass on the top C's and get one in the 4th rd.
(06-26-2018, 02:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Probably me as well, but would it have really been that surprising if they decided to go with a different position and wait to address C later, which is what they were accustomed to doing?
I would have been surprised this year.
They clearly positioned themselves to pick a center this year, had the talent worthy of a first round pick and had solved their other most glaring problem by trading down.
Pretty nice piece of work there, and having done it I didn't see them taking a chance of missing out on one of the top 3 centers even if he may not have been (I don't know) the best player on their board.
They were lucky in that a good enough player was available, but figured out how to make good value decisions to make it all work.
(06-26-2018, 02:28 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: I don't think he is going to change his mind. I was asked to "ease up" on him so to speak. But at this point, there's no sense in arguing with him. He hates Ross. And he just keeps repeating himself.
dude..I hate nobody..I respectfully disagree with your opinion..Ross was a bust his first year due to his ongoing injuries and inability to learn the playbook..he was benched by the head coach..sorry you cant deal with facts..what is ..is
(06-26-2018, 01:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The Bengals knew there was a need for OL, but clearly they didn't think any of the OL in the draft were worth a top 10 pick. If they would have taken an OL in the top 10 in the 2017 draft, you'd have seen some people saying the Bengals reached way too far vs going BPA.
IMO the Bengals had a plan going into that draft...
Take a blend of BPA with elite traits that would be a need in 1-2 years but could afford to have them groomed for a year or two if needed.
I think it came down to John Ross or OJ Howard.
If Ross, the Bengals likely felt they had LaFell as a stopgap while Ross was groomed. If Howard, they had at least a year with Eifert as the lead guy.
They followed this same approach all the years prior with WJ3, Ogbuehi, Dennard, Eifert, and Kirkpatrick.
Wanting the Bengals to draft primarily based on need is just something that is most often wishful thinking because we know how they typically operate.
Maybe that changes though with this kind-of-new regime, as we've seen with the selection of Billy Price. It was a definite change from how they've typically approached the early rounds for years.
ross was an abysmal failure his first year..was even benched by the head coach..but...of course, the bengals had a plan( tell us more about your strategy sessions with the coaches and ownership)..quit making excuses..yeah they wanted a top ten receiver that did not understand the playbook
should have drafted down and gotten 2 offensive linemen
(06-26-2018, 02:59 PM)3wt Wrote: I would have been surprised this year.
They clearly positioned themselves to pick a center this year, had the talent worthy of a first round pick and had solved their other most glaring problem by trading down.
Pretty nice piece of work there, and having done it I didn't see them taking a chance of missing out on one of the top 3 centers even if he may not have been (I don't know) the best player on their board.
They were lucky in that a good enough player was available, but figured out how to make good value decisions to make it all work.
I was honestly mentally prepared for the Bengals to go a different position at 21 and then hope one of the top three centers fell to them at 46.
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Patience has paid off!
(06-26-2018, 03:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was honestly mentally prepared for the Bengals to go a different position at 21 and then hope one of the top three centers fell to them at 46.
LOL, you were better prepared than I. There would have been reports of an explosion and sink hole in West Chester if they had done that.
(06-26-2018, 02:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Probably me as well, but would it have really been that surprising if they decided to go with a different position and wait to address C later, which is what they were accustomed to doing?
Hell no it wouldn't.....it's why I was on pins and needles all the way until Price was announced. I thought it was over when Ragnow went to Detroit.
(06-26-2018, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: One knew the playbook and one didn't.
Why do you think the only way they could get the ball to ross was on a reverse?
Even if you believe Ross was utterly clueless, Marvin found a way to get the ball in Ross' hands at the very beginning of the season, and never did so again after he fumbled.
No more reverses? It doesn't take a genius to catch a swing pass or one of those quick throws to Sanu or LaFell that we've seen 1009 times. Shoot, for that one Ross wouldn't even have to run a route period.
Either Ross was too injured or he was in the doghouse. Probably a combo. I don't buy the playbook stuff. You can do easy stuff to get pretty much anyone involved. As we saw in game 1.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(06-27-2018, 05:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Even if you believe Ross was utterly clueless, Marvin found a way to get the ball in Ross' hands at the very beginning of the season, and never did so again after he fumbled.
No more reverses? It doesn't take a genius to catch a swing pass or one of those quick throws to Sanu or LaFell that we've seen 1009 times. Shoot, for that one Ross wouldn't even have to run a route period.
Either Ross was too injured or he was in the doghouse. Probably a combo. I don't buy the playbook stuff. You can do easy stuff to get pretty much anyone involved. As we saw in game 1.
If that is your position then don't let me ever hear you complain about Marvin "not holding players accountable" again.
Ross admitted he did not know the playbook. Shouldn't Marvin hold players accountable for that?
(06-26-2018, 03:06 PM)cooper Wrote: ross was an abysmal failure his first year..was even benched by the head coach..but...of course, the bengals had a plan( tell us more about your strategy sessions with the coaches and ownership)..quit making excuses..yeah they wanted a top ten receiver that did not understand the playbook
should have drafted down and gotten 2 offensive linemen
you either hate ross or love the hell out of him for you to be posting this much about him...
We got your opinion the exact same one 10+ times already..
(06-21-2018, 12:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Yeah, and what a big sample size that was. 2 targets and 1 fumble where the defender objectively got a perfect hit with his helmet on the ball. If this is what you consider evidence, you probably wanted to convict before the trial even started.
2. He wasn't allowed to participate in team activities until June 13th due to NFL rules (he had to wait for final exams). He was finishing 3 classes, so obviously he had less time time to cram his head in a playbook. Also, who said he didn't know it for "a whole year"? I've seen Ross imply he didn't know it when he arrived to the team. Not that he didn't know it deep into the season.
--------
I understand frustration over his rookie season, I really do. Who wouldn't be frustrated? That said, you have to look at everything objectively. He was obviously not 100% healthy, he got a very late start on team activities and immersing himself in the playbook - and this wasn't entirely his fault, it was just circumstances. Then you have a coordinator switch after 2 games last year... There was just a LOT working against Ross last year.
The 3 plays you mention prove zilch in the long run. With a full off-season and being 100% (knock on wood) - NOW is when we can fairly get a good idea of who he really is.
These are good points. And sorry I don't get on much right now, so posts are erratic in timing.
But I don't understand any of the hype on Ross. I could understand someone saying yeah he really f-ed it up, but he's got his $hit together now and we are hoping for the best but we really don't know what we've got with this guy.
He needs to do something on the field before I believe any of the hype or even a fraction of it. After last season, the onus is on Ross to prove he belongs on the team, not on me to believe he's going to be great.
Ross won't be great or even good until he actually is great or good on the field. Last season he was amazingly un-great.
For the 9th overall pick going into his second season he really needs to be damn good to live up to that pick.
Let's be objective about what he needs to do to earn a starting spot. What skills does he need to start at the #2 WR spot?
A. He needs to catch the ball.
B. He needs to run the right route correctly and be in the right spot at the right time.
C. He needs to block in the running and passing game.
D. Ball security.
A. I've seen nothing to suggest that he won't be decent in this area. LaFell is decent also.
B. Big question mark. In college, in the Pac12, defenses didn't have the tools to cover him so there was a wide margin of error. He might have gone up against only one or two above average defenses over an entire year in college. This won't be the case in the NFL where he'll have tight coverage and a corner all over him. The only routes where I believe he's got an edge on LaFell is on routes that require a lot speed to get to the right spot at the right time. Creating separation will be super important for Ross' route running given his size. Maybe he's learned from TJ.
C. An area of definite concern. If his blocking is weak then this could limit his use to 3 and 4 WR sets where he's in a spot where limited blocking is required. LaFell is decent in this area.
D. Overall I don't have much concern in this area. But I don't have a concern for LaFell in this area either.
So, think that LaFell will beat out Ross in training camp simply by being the better all around WR over those 4 areas, barring injury of course.
The good news for Ross is that none of the other young WRs have done much or stepped up either. So the main guy to beat is LaFell. Maybe Malone could make a run for playing time.
(06-21-2018, 07:02 AM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: I understand your concerns, and can't dispute them. I just hope he "shows up" this year and changes your opinion.
I hope he does too. If he shows up and helps us win then all is great!
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