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(08-26-2020, 02:43 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The kid's not from WI? If the case is ruled self defense then I don't know what their chances would be in civil court.
He's from Illinois, about 35 minutes south west of Kenosha. It's illegal in both states for him to have that gun, and I believe illegal for him to open carry in WI.
They arrested him and charged him with 1st degree (seems like a bad decision, 2nd or manslaughter) but they also got him for fleeing the state to avoid prosecution.
Even if he's found innocent, there's precedent to lose a civil cause. If it's self defense, I think they could still get the mom for damages for her letting him illegally own the gun and leave the state with it, saying that her neglect led to the deaths. It's a pretty big **** up on her part (assuming it was her).
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(08-26-2020, 06:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No.
Interesting.
(08-26-2020, 06:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Calm yourself. What if he was attacked and killed the first person in self defense? You're acting like all the facts are in on this case, they are not.
Nor do you and you were the first to offer a defense of "possible" self defense. I'm speculating as you did.
(08-26-2020, 06:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Who on this board has made either of those two claims?
I didn't say "on this board". The world of bad opinions and false facts exists beyond here.
(08-26-2020, 06:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your propensity to falsely accuse others of making vile statements is childish and it needs to stop.
As you say "I'll choose to ignore your personal attack".
(08-26-2020, 06:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Start with "personally" not lying about (or alluding to) what people on this board have claimed or said.
See above. The lady doth protest too much.
(08-26-2020, 06:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Uh, exactly. What would have happened if the dude in Portland who got field goal kicked in the face was armed? He probably would have shot someone when he was attacked.
The only person putting any spin on this story so far is you, so kindly try practicing what you preach.
I speculated as you did. Sorry it didn't fit, what do you call it, "narrative".
Sir.
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(08-26-2020, 07:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: Interesting.
Consistent.
Quote:Nor do you and you were the first to offer a defense of "possible" self defense. I'm speculating as you did.
The key word in that sentence is "possible". Given the violence that has become a common occurrence at these riots it's not exactly a far fetched possibility. It may not be self defense, but it's certainly not obvious that it was not.
Quote:I didn't say "on this board". The world of bad opinions and false facts exists beyond here.
Then actually state that instead of saying it in a way that could easily be viewed as you doing exactly that.
Quote:As you say "I'll choose to ignore your personal attack".
A request is not a personal attack. This is the third time I've had to ask you about this within the last week.
Quote:See above. The lady doth protest too much.
Please let me know what the right amount of calling out your propensity to deliberately misstate the positions of those you debate with.
Quote:I speculated as you did. Sorry it didn't fit, what do you call it, "narrative".
Sir.
It certainly didn't read that way, but I'll take your word for it. Apology accepted.
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One thing I will say is that the racists get to come out of hiding when this stuff happens and act like they are simply being "fair".
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Trump says nothing of the Blake shooting. Nothing about the 17 year old killer.
But...LAW AND ORDER!
Meanwhile:
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Ever thought to yourself “that thing I just said publicly at work should get me fired” ?
Neither has this guy apparently. Buy a ***** lifeline bro.
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(08-26-2020, 07:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan:No. Wrote: Calm yourself. What if he was attacked and killed the first person in self defense? You're acting like all the facts are in on this case, they are not.
Who on this board has made either of those two claims? Your propensity to falsely accuse others of making vile statements is childish and it needs to stop.
Start with "personally" not lying about (or alluding to) what people on this board have claimed or said.
Uh, exactly. What would have happened if the dude in Portland who got field goal kicked in the face was armed? He probably would have shot someone when he was attacked.
The only person putting any spin on this story so far is you, so kindly try practicing what you preach.
(08-26-2020, 07:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Consistent.
The key word in that sentence is "possible". Given the violence that has become a common occurrence at these riots it's not exactly a far fetched possibility. It may not be self defense, but it's certainly not obvious that it was not.
Then actually state that instead of saying it in a way that could easily be viewed as you doing exactly that.
A request is not a personal attack. This is the third time I've had to ask you about this within the last week.
Please let me know what the right amount of calling out your propensity to deliberately misstate the positions of those you debate with.
It certainly didn't read that way, but I'll take your word for it. Apology accepted.
"Posting history" keepers
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(08-27-2020, 04:13 AM)Dill Wrote: "Posting history" keepers
"What If" was one of my favorite comics growing up.
What if the cops didn't shoot a guy 7 times in the back, paralyzing him?
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Opinion piece from the veteran who mas attacked by the federal agents for talking to them.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/08/26/aclu-christopher-david-sue-federal-agents-dhs-beating-column/5634066002/
[/url]
Quote:OPINION
Navy Vet Christopher David: Why aren't feds protecting civil rights? We'll find out in court
My beating by these lawless officers was captured on video and has since gone viral. As the world saw, there was no reason for such violence.
Christopher David
Opinion contributor
[url=http://twitter.com/share?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2Fopinion%2F2020%2F08%2F26%2Faclu-christopher-david-sue-federal-agents-dhs-beating-column%2F5634066002%2F&text=Navy%20Vet%20Christopher%20David%3A%20Why%20aren%27t%20feds%20protecting%20civil%20rights%3F%20We%27ll%20find%20out%20in%20court&via=usatoday]
Thirty-six years ago, I walked through the gates of the United States Naval Academy as a midshipman. The academy forged all of us into one unit with the same goal and purpose: To support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
I upheld that oath with pride and honor during my eight years of service in the Navy. It was this commitment to the Constitution that made us all protect the rule of law and strive to make our country better. I had always believed that when taking the oath of office, everyone else believed as we did when we took ours.
But I was very wrong.
Last month, while attending Black Lives Matter protests in Portland, Oregon, I witnessed federal officers attack protesters outside the Hatfield Courthouse. I, too, was violently beaten and tear gassed by federal agents — all because I had the nerve to ask the federal officers why they were not honoring their oath to support the Constitution. My beating by these lawless officers was captured on video and has since gone viral. As the world saw, there was no reason for such violence. And as I came to understand that for some people, the oath is just a set of words, not a calling.
Now, together with the American Civil Liberties Union, I’m suing the federal government for violating our constitutional rights.
![[Image: faa4f25f-0b5e-4690-a6a2-858092a1caa4-XXX...&auto=webp]](https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/07/24/USAT/faa4f25f-0b5e-4690-a6a2-858092a1caa4-XXX_TH__portland_protests_2020_494.JPG?width=660&height=423&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
For weeks, I watched on TV as federal officers arbitrarily attack peaceful protesters supporting the Black Lives Matter movement. They even used unmarked vans to abduct U.S. citizens from the streets of Portland — all under the guise of protecting federal property. I was shocked and appalled. If the U.S. government could do this to our fellow citizens, where would it end? Anybody can buy surplus military uniforms and rent a minivan. How do we now know that these really are the feds when it happens again? What if it’s the Proud Boys?
If the feds could get away with these flagrant violations of our civil liberties in Portland, it would undermine all our freedoms across the country.
Protests not as portrayed by police
My decision to attend the protest was a spontaneous one. I walked the perimeter of the protest and was shocked to see how small the affected area actually was — just four city blocks. Contrary to what the administration had been telling us, all of downtown Portland was not in flames with uncontrolled and widespread looting everywhere.
In fact, the protest was peaceful when I arrived, with more the air of a festival, not the violence or looting depicted by the administration. Only later at night did the mood get more tense as people anticipated the arrival of the federal officers like a violent and blustery wind. Everybody knew it was going to arrive, just not exactly when or where from.
When the federal officers emerged from the courthouse, I saw them rush at the peaceful protesters, plowing into them and knocking them down. I watched this happen in shock. I then stepped out of the park and into the street just north of the intersection and stood there, just several feet from the curb.
This was not Portland. This was not the United States I had sworn to defend.
![[Image: 0de30846-b353-4f0e-9438-daef3ac51cdd-AP_...&auto=webp]](https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/07/21/USAT/0de30846-b353-4f0e-9438-daef3ac51cdd-AP_Racial_Injustice_Navy_Vet_Beaten.jpg?width=660&height=527&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
When the federal officers were done dispatching the peaceful protesters in the intersection, they turned their attention toward me. The first one leveled his weapon at me as he approached, then lowered it. A second officer then plowed into me and knocked me back several feet. I then squared up and stood my ground, still stunned by what was happening. A smaller officer then hit me with a baton five times as other officers sprayed a chemical irritant into my face from very short range. Blinded and with a broken hand, I offered the officers a disgusted farewell salute and then started back toward the park and into a giant cloud of tear gas.
Volunteer medic to the rescue
Stumbling and blinded, I was rescued by a volunteer street medic who cared for me and bravely evacuated me to safety. It was an amazing act of courage on the medic’s part, but for the medic and the others who were out to help, it was just another night of selfless bravery standing up for racial justice by exercising their civil liberties.
This is the country that we have now become. Selfless, volunteer civilian combat medics are needed to rescue their fellow citizens from lawless violence directed at them by the federal government.
More:Kenosha protests: short video of Jacob Blake shooting tells public all it needs to know
Yet one thing that gives me hope: the many people from different backgrounds raising their voices against this outrage. A shining example for me is Duston Obermeyer, a giant USNA graduate from the class of 2001. He is a true combat hero and former Marine helicopter pilot with three tours into two war zones. As it turns out, he was standing right next to me when I was struck and gassed by the federal officers.
He came down to the protest to ask the federal officers the same question that I did.
“Why are you not honoring your oath to the Constitution?"
We’ll now have to get our answer in court.
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(08-27-2020, 09:33 AM)GMDino Wrote:
Ok, I don't visit this place very often, but let me get this straight....
Kyle went to Kenosha with a AR-15(?) to help defend buildings from being burned to the ground. He was on video running from a group of rioters, one which tried to swing and hit him with a skateboard (possibly hit him?). Kyle then fell, another rioter tried to jump in the air and stomp on him while he was on the ground, and another (with the skateboard) running toward him hitting him with the skateboard in the head, and another drawing a pistol at him. Kyle then shot the people who were trying to seriously injure him.
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Jacob had the police called on him for stealing a woman's keys and not returning them and not leaving. The officers were informed he previously had domestic abuse, a felony sexual assault, and a misdemeanor carrying a concealed weapon. Jacob had an open warrant. The officers tried to subdue Jacob by wrestling him to the ground and tasering him, but it didn't work. Jacob then went to the driver side of his car where a knife was, and then shot by the police.
Am I missing something, because I feel like I must because how people are acting.
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(08-27-2020, 10:18 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Ok, I don't visit this place very often, but let me get this straight....
Kyle went to Kenosha with a AR-15(?) to help defend buildings from being burned to the ground. He was on video running from a group of rioters, one which tried to swing and hit him with a skateboard (possibly hit him?). Kyle then fell, another rioter tried to jump in the air and stomp on him while he was on the ground, and another (with the skateboard) running toward him hitting him with the skateboard in the head, and another drawing a pistol at him. Kyle then shot the people who were trying to seriously injure him.
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Jacob had the police called on him for stealing a woman's keys and not returning them and not leaving. The officers were informed he previously had domestic abuse, a felony sexual assault, and a misdemeanor carrying a concealed weapon. Jacob had an open warrant. The officers tried to subdue Jacob by wrestling him to the ground and tasering him, but it didn't work. Jacob then went to the driver side of his car where a knife was, and then shot by the police.
Am I missing something, because I feel like I must because how people are acting.
Kyle sis suspected of shooting a person then a crowd chases after him and he shoots two of them and runs home.
Jacob was breaking up a fight when the police got there and went to his car where his three children were and was shot SEVEN times in the back.
Being chased for killing someone isn't self defense
Having a knife, or a watt ant, isn't reason to be paralyzed for life.
Yeah, I'd say you're missing something.
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(08-27-2020, 10:22 AM)GMDino Wrote: Kyle sis suspected of shooting a person then a crowd chases after him and he shoots two of them and runs home.
Jacob was breaking up a fight when the police got there and went to his car where his three children were and was shot SEVEN times in the back.
Being chased for killing someone isn't self defense
Having a knife isn't reason to be paralyzed for life.
Yeah, I'd say you're missing something.
From what I read Kyle didn't shoot anyone until he fell to the ground and was attacked. If I'm wrong and Kyle unjustly killed someone then that's different, but from the video I seen it was clearly self defense. I'm defiantly for waiting until more info comes out to have a final opinion.
Jacob wasn't breaking up a fight he actually had the police called on him. There's actual video of him being put on the ground by the police and being tased and Jacob getting back up and walking to his car where the knife (a deadly weapon) was.
So what am I missing?
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The amount of time Americans can spend debating and poring over the minutia of daily shootings is astounding.
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(08-27-2020, 10:28 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: From what I read Kyle didn't shoot anyone until he fell to the ground and was attacked. If I'm wrong and Kyle unjustly killed someone then that's different, but from the video I seen it was clearly self defense. I'm defiantly for waiting until more info comes out to have a final opinion.
Jacob wasn't breaking up a fight he actually had the police called on him. There's actual video of him being put on the ground by the police and being tased and Jacob getting back up and walking to his car where the knife (a deadly weapon) was.
So what am I missing?
https://www.theblaze.com/news/video-first-kenosha-victim?utm_content=buffer22976&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=fb-patgrayunleashed&fbclid=IwAR1r3A0FnPPXOz7nHqYShC34VM7nm5PqXsyAvyI6pCcgNfKASjka5onnv8A
So that's the only video that I seen of the first victim (sorry for having to use the blaze). Kyle seems to shoot in the air as a warning shot while being chased by the first victim. He still was running after him and throwing things at him. He is being chased and attacked before he even shoots anyone.
I am willing to vilify Kyle if he unjustly killed someone. Hell, I don't agree with him being at there what-so-ever, but from all the evidence it shows that he legitimately trying to run away and just defending himself at that point. He should have let the police do their job. He should be punished for being there and crossing state lines with a gun. I don't believe that its justifiable to charge him with manslaughter or murder, because it very much seems like it was self defense.
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(08-27-2020, 10:28 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: From what I read Kyle didn't shoot anyone until he fell to the ground and was attacked. If I'm wrong and Kyle unjustly killed someone then that's different, but from the video I seen it was clearly self defense. I'm defiantly for waiting until more info comes out to have a final opinion.
Jacob wasn't breaking up a fight he actually had the police called on him. There's actual video of him being put on the ground by the police and being tased and Jacob getting back up and walking to his car where the knife (a deadly weapon) was.
So what am I missing?
He had just killed someone and fled the scene of the crime. The people were trying to stop him. In the video, you can hear people yelling to stop him because he just killed a man. The man whose arm he blew a chunk out of had a gun but at no point tried to fire at him, even when he was directly in front of him. He tried to stop him without using lethal force.
I guess he made a mistake, because now he's maimed and a second unarmed man is dead.
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(08-27-2020, 10:47 AM)Nately120 Wrote: The amount of time Americans can spend debating and poring over the minutia of daily shootings is astounding.
![[Image: 200.gif]](https://media1.giphy.com/media/443jI3kpgOKfAfKxqo/200.gif)
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(08-27-2020, 10:54 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: He had just killed someone and fled the scene of the crime. The people were trying to stop him. In the video, you can hear people yelling to stop him because he just killed a man. The man whose arm he blew a chunk out of had a gun but at no point tried to fire at him, even when he was directly in front of him. He tried to stop him without using lethal force.
I guess he made a mistake, because now he's maimed and a second unarmed man is dead.
I looked into it more, and I found I was wrong and he shot someone before the video I watched. I found another video showing the first victim was chasing Kyle and attacking him. Kyle shooting a warning shot in the air while running away from the first victim. Kyle was still being chased, so he defended himself. More people started chasing him and attacking him. He continued to defend himself. That's what the videos that have been released clearly show.
If you have anymore evidence of wrongdoing on Kyles part I would appreciate it so I can change my opinion.
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