Lets give Marvin credit this season ....

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 02:58 PM)Wyche Wrote: No, 'cause he'll bring back Piano Paul.

Don't forget Brat

[Shake n Blake]

(10-24-2018, 03:03 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Don't forget Brat

Don't forget "Nasty" Nate Livings.

[BengalYankee]

(10-24-2018, 02:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marvin is 0-3 in the playoffs with QB's not named "Andy Dalton". Those QB's have combined for the following numbers:

66 of 118 (55.9% - terrible)
621 yards (5.26 yards per attempt - terrible)
3 TDs to 4 INTs (terrible)
65.0 passer rating (terrible)

...and yes you can blame the Head Coach for terrible player performance. That's why HC's get fired in the first place. They aren't getting the best out of their players. What makes it even more obvious is that we've seen multiple sets of talented players fail in the same situations. And it's not just QB's. Our pass rush disappears. Our o-line can't block. We can't stop the run or the pass. Chad and AJ have put up weak numbers. Etc, etc.

I blame Mike Brown for the 90's, but we've had enough talent to win playoff games during Marv's tenure. The choking is on Marv. I blame Mike for not firing Marv. I pretty much give the players a pass based on Marv's lengthy and dreadful history in prime-time, Steelers and playoff games.

I can't sum up my stance any clearer than this.

And Mike Brown is 0-7 in the playoffs during this time and a record of about .418 (163-228-1) vs Marvin Lewis record of over .500.

I can easily go in the weeds and say Dalton has horrendous QB stats, interceptions, pick 6's, fumbles, low QB ratings, etc.

However, unlike you I won't blame, the soldier[Dalton], the captain[Lewis], but I do blame the general[Brown], that's where we differ.
A place where you had to use a water fountain instead of bottle water or Gatorade. A place where you had to use used jock straps.

Screw that it's the freaking owner, it's the reason  quality free agents would never visit here and guess who changed the culture somewhat?

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/7/11/17552714/former-nfl-wr-t-j-houshmandzadeh-reveals-just-how-cheap-the-bengals-used-to-be-pittsburgh-steelers

There you have it, be blind, put your head in the ground, but it is the truth whose to blame. Maybe you know more than TJ, but I doubt it.
Marvin did the best he could and when he goes Mike will be up to his cheap ass tricks.



 
  

[Shake n Blake]

(10-24-2018, 03:10 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: And Mike Brown is 0-7 in the playoffs during this time and a record of about .418 (163-228-1) vs Marvin Lewis record of over .500.

I can easily go in the weeds and say Dalton has horrendous QB stats, interceptions, pick 6's, fumbles, low QB ratings, etc.

However, unlike you I won't blame, the soldier[Dalton], the captain[Lewis], but I do blame the general[Brown], that's where we differ.
A place where you had to use a water fountain instead of bottle water or Gatorade. A place where you had to use used jock straps.

Screw that it's the freaking owner, it's the reason  quality free agents would never visit here and guess who changed the culture somewhat?

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/7/11/17552714/former-nfl-wr-t-j-houshmandzadeh-reveals-just-how-cheap-the-bengals-used-to-be-pittsburgh-steelers

There you have it, be blind, put your head in the ground, but it is the truth whose to blame. Maybe you know more than TJ, but I doubt it.
Marvin did the best he could and when he goes Mike will be up to his cheap ass tricks.

I think you're misunderstanding me.

I do blame the general...for keeping the captain. I don't blame the grunts because they're getting poor intel and strategies from the captain, causing them to consistently lose their biggest battles. The general in this instance isn't doing anything wrong other than keeping a weak captain around.

Cite all the Dalton stats you wish. I'm aware of them. The point is that everyone (including 3 other QB's) have played poorly as well. This points to a coaching/schematic/game-planning issue. Not a player issue or an ownership issue (outside of ownership standing behind poor coaching).

[BengalYankee]

(10-24-2018, 03:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think you're misunderstanding me.

I do blame the general...for keeping the captain. I don't blame the grunts because they're getting poor intel and strategies from the captain, causing them to consistently lose their biggest battles. The general in this instance isn't doing anything wrong other than keeping a weak captain around.

Cite all the Dalton stats you wish. I'm aware of them. The point is that everyone (including 3 other QB's) have played poorly as well. This points to a coaching/schematic/game-planning issue. Not a player issue or an ownership issue (outside of ownership standing behind poor coaching).

I know you are misunderstanding me.

This is not your 1900-1990 NFL anymore.

We now live in the age of free agency with players and coaches.
It is up to the General to make it amiable for players and coaches.

The time for cheap ass owners is over whether you like it or not. 
Did you read the link I provided with TJ? I doubt it or you conveniently as a politician ignored it.
Let me bring it back to you. The culture of the Bengals sucked until Marvin changed it. You obviously want to go back to the era where players had to share jock straps and drink water from a water fountain.
I played Division III football in the 80's and we never shared jock straps or drank from a water fountain.
Cheap is cheap and you don't keep talent or lure talent with being cheap.
Mike hired a bunch of loser coaches who went along with his cheapness UNTIL Marvin came and changed the culture.

You also keep conveniently ignore that Mike Brown was  considered the worst owner in Sports. In 2009, Marvin was voted coach of the year.

Where is your disconnect that you don't see that Marvin is carrying Mike Brown???

Without Marvin, Mike Brown would have ran this franchise to the ground.

Thank goodness, he can't hold the team captive to the city of Cincy and move his team to LA anymore.

And how is that stadium deal fairing now? He is a cheap crook.      

[Shake n Blake]

(10-24-2018, 04:04 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: I know you are misunderstanding me.

This is not your 1900-1990 NFL anymore.

We now live in the age of free agency with players and coaches.
It is up to the General to make it amiable for players and coaches.

The time for cheap ass owners is over whether you like it or not. 
Did you read the link I provided with TJ? I doubt it or you conveniently as a politician ignored it.
Let me bring it back to you. The culture of the Bengals sucked until Marvin changed it. You obviously want to go back to the era where players had to share jock straps and drink water from a water fountain.
I played Division III football in the 80's and we never shared jock straps or drank from a water fountain.
Cheap is cheap and you don't keep talent or lure talent with being cheap.
Mike hired a bunch of loser coaches who went along with his cheapness UNTIL Marvin came and changed the culture.

You also keep conveniently ignore that Mike Brown was  considered the worst owner in Sports. In 2009, Marvin was voted coach of the year.

Where is your disconnect that you don't see that Marvin is carrying Mike Brown???

Without Marvin, Mike Brown would have ran this franchise to the ground.

Thank goodness, he can't hold the team captive to the city of Cincy and move his team to LA anymore.

And how is that stadium deal fairing now? He is a cheap crook.      

Let me make this easy for you BY. How was Mike Brown at fault for how 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 ended? 

Mikey being cheap with towels 15 years ago has zilch to do with any of that. We had the talent to win division titles, but not playoff games? 

[BengalYankee]

(10-24-2018, 04:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Let me make this easy for you BY. How was Mike Brown at fault for how 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 ended? 

Mikey being cheap with towels 15 years ago has zilch to do with any of that. We had the talent to win division titles, but not playoff games? 

Let me make this VERY SIMPLE for you. Going by his track record since 1991, [you with me], Mike brown would not have made the playoffs in 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 [you with me]. He had a track record of hiring loser coaches, no scouting, not getting quality players, losing quality players of free agency[you with me].

This team was losing quality players and again you conveniently will not comment on what TJ stated and more importantly what that meant.
What it means[you with me] is that this team would not have fared well DURING THE ERA OF FREE AGENCY!!!!![YOU WITH ME]

This team would have lost more talent if it was not because of the change of culture.

At this point we don't get quality free agents, but we lose quality free agents aka Whitworth[See LA RAMS].

You said we had talent, of course we did, during Marvin's tenure. Not during the 1991-2003 era of Mike Brown and his losing cheap ass way. Players did not want to come here[you with me], at least now we can keep some, yes some talent that we brought up during the draft. And whose drafting? Marvin's drafting.[you with me].

   

[fredtoast]

(10-24-2018, 04:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Let me make this easy for you BY. How was Mike Brown at fault for how 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 ended? 

Mikey being cheap with towels 15 years ago has zilch to do with any of that. We had the talent to win division titles, but not playoff games? 

You have to be kidding, right?

You have probably made hundreds of posts in threads about Mike Brown's free agent policy over the years, but when you want to bash Marvin  suddenly it is not an issue?

We had the talent to get into the playoffs, but in 5 of the 7 playoff games we were underdogs.

'05 Steelers 3 point favorite
'11 Texans 4 point favorite
'12 Texans 4 point favorite
'14 Colts 4 point favorite
'15 Steelers 3 point favorite

[grampahol]

Marvin gets credit from me, but the interest rate just went way up and he's defaulted on the loan. 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-24-2018, 05:22 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Let me make this VERY SIMPLE for you. Going by his track record since 1991, [you with me], Mike brown would not have made the playoffs in 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 [you with me]. He had a track record of hiring loser coaches, no scouting, not getting quality players, losing quality players of free agency[you with me].

This team was losing quality players and again you conveniently will not comment on what TJ stated and more importantly what that meant.
What it means[you with me] is that this team would not have fared well DURING THE ERA OF FREE AGENCY!!!!![YOU WITH ME]

This team would have lost more talent if it was not because of the change of culture.

At this point we don't get quality free agents, but we lose quality free agents aka Whitworth[See LA RAMS].

You said we had talent, of course we did, during Marvin's tenure. Not during the 1991-2003 era of Mike Brown and his losing cheap ass way. Players did not want to come here[you with me], at least now we can keep some, yes some talent that we brought up during the draft. And whose drafting? Marvin's drafting.[you with me].

   

No need to get snotty BY. Apologies if I came off that way, but it really wasn't my intent to make this a poo flinging contest.

Anywho, whether or not we would've made the playoffs with a different coach is a whole other topic, but lets be honest here. One of the other candidates was Tom Coughlin. A Mike Brown led franchise was choosing between Marvin Lewis and Tom Coughlin. Two very good candidates. I'm not sure why Marv apologists always like to ignore this and focus only on Dave Shula/Bruce Coslet (1991-2003). 

As for talent acquisition, I'd argue that our de facto GM (Tobin) has had more to do with that than Marvin Lewis. 

This is where we differ. I don't think Marvin Lewis is the only thing keeping this team from sinking into a black hole, because (a) Tobin and (b) the last time we had a coaching vacancy, we looked at some very good candidates. Either way, I'd rather risk falling into another lost decade and say "we tried" than to sit here for infinity watching Marv teams choke, knowing full well they aren't winning a championship. 

(10-24-2018, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have to be kidding, right?

You have probably made hundreds of posts in threads about Mike Brown's free agent policy over the years, but when you want to bash Marvin  suddenly it is not an issue?

We had the talent to get into the playoffs, but in 5 of the 7 playoff games we were underdogs.

'05 Steelers 3 point favorite
'11 Texans 4 point favorite
'12 Texans 4 point favorite
'14 Colts 4 point favorite
'15 Steelers 3 point favorite

1. Save your faux bewilderment, Skip Bayless. Of course I've wanted free agent upgrades just like anyone else. Anything that would boost our chances of winning a playoff game. That doesn't mean we haven't had teams talented enough to win playoff games. 

2. What are the odds a team loses 7 straight playoff games in embarrassing fashion? One in a Marvin Lewis? 

[BengalYankee]

(10-25-2018, 02:05 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: No need to get snotty BY. Apologies if I came off that way, but it really wasn't my intent to make this a poo flinging contest.

Anywho, whether or not we would've made the playoffs with a different coach is a whole other topic, but lets be honest here. One of the other candidates was Tom Coughlin. A Mike Brown led franchise was choosing between Marvin Lewis and Tom Coughlin. Two very good candidates. I'm not sure why Marv apologists always like to ignore this and focus only on Dave Shula/Bruce Coslet (1991-2003). 

As for talent acquisition, I'd argue that our de facto GM (Tobin) has had more to do with that than Marvin Lewis. 

This is where we differ. I don't think Marvin Lewis is the only thing keeping this team from sinking into a black hole, because (a) Tobin and (b) the last time we had a coaching vacancy, we looked at some very good candidates. Either way, I'd rather risk falling into another lost decade and say "we tried" than to sit here for infinity watching Marv teams choke, knowing full well they aren't winning a championship. 


1. Save your faux bewilderment, Skip Bayless. Of course I've wanted free agent upgrades just like anyone else. Anything that would boost our chances of winning a playoff game. That doesn't mean we haven't had teams talented enough to win playoff games. 

2. What are the odds a team loses 7 straight playoff games in embarrassing fashion? One in a Marvin Lewis? 

Not getting snotty. We are friends going way back. We are having a healthy debate among Bengal fans, that is what this website is for right?

We are just speaking two different languages. You say Marvin Lewis is 0-7 in the playoffs, I say we don't even have 7 playoff appearances without Marvin Lewis. I say we are 0-7 with Mike Brown. Facts say we are well, well under .500 with Mike Brown and we are over .500 with Marvin Lewis. AP says Marvin Lewis 2009 coach of the year. Many polls say Mike Brown among  worst owner in Sports.

I am well aware of Tom Coughlin being a New Yorker. I know the Giants organization better then you and their culture for their players/coaches/organization is far, far, far better then the Bengals. What you don't take into consideration are the players/coaches  feel while they come to work Monday-Saturday. Tom Coughlin was a good tough coach, but he would not have retained talent here, nor would he have changed the culture here. Marvin had more respect in the league in 2003 so when Marvin changed the culture, Tom would have been like Shula, Coslett, Dick Lebeau, etc a lackey just happy to have a job. 

I don't care if you had Lombardi or Belicheat[see cleveland browns as coach] in TODAY'S NFL you won't be able to keep quality players if you are cheap. BB has a fine organization and their owner spares no expense in keeping his players comfortable. 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kicker-explains-why-everyone-on-the-patriots-loves-owner-robert-kraft/

The Bengal players don't love Mike Brown, if not for Marvin Lewis they would abandon ship as soon as their contract expired. 

It's the Culture, Culture, Culture!!!!!!

[*bengalfan74*]

Marvin Lewis records:

Playoffs 0-7

Prime Time: 9-30

Pittsburgh: 2-16 at home and 8-25 overall

And somebody can spin an argument that the HC is not responsible for this ? LOL

[BengalYankee]

(10-25-2018, 05:43 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin Lewis records:

Playoffs 0-7

Prime Time: 9-30

Pittsburgh: 2-16 at home and 8-25 overall

And somebody can spin an argument that the HC is not responsible for this ? LOL

And what is Mike Brown's record during these times????

[Hoofhearted]

(10-24-2018, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have to be kidding, right?

You have probably made hundreds of posts in threads about Mike Brown's free agent policy over the years, but when you want to bash Marvin  suddenly it is not an issue?

We had the talent to get into the playoffs, but in 5 of the 7 playoff games we were underdogs.

'05 Steelers 3 point favorite
'11 Texans 4 point favorite
'12 Texans 4 point favorite
'14 Colts 4 point favorite
'15 Steelers 3 point favorite

Going that route, the actual probability for winning a 3 point game as an underdog is 45.5%. The actual probability for winning a 4 point game as a dog is 37.6%. So they had two times where it was almost a coin flip, and three other times where it was a little less. We won't even bring up the score difference between those games, so not only did they not win, they defied the odds by a combined score of 125-66. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-25-2018, 04:55 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Not getting snotty. We are friends going way back. We are having a healthy debate among Bengal fans, that is what this website is for right?

We are just speaking two different languages. You say Marvin Lewis is 0-7 in the playoffs, I say we don't even have 7 playoff appearances without Marvin Lewis. I say we are 0-7 with Mike Brown. Facts say we are well, well under .500 with Mike Brown and we are over .500 with Marvin Lewis. AP says Marvin Lewis 2009 coach of the year. Many polls say Mike Brown among  worst owner in Sports.

I am well aware of Tom Coughlin being a New Yorker. I know the Giants organization better then you and their culture for their players/coaches/organization is far, far, far better then the Bengals. What you don't take into consideration are the players/coaches  feel while they come to work Monday-Saturday. Tom Coughlin was a good tough coach, but he would not have retained talent here, nor would he have changed the culture here. Marvin had more respect in the league in 2003 so when Marvin changed the culture, Tom would have been like Shula, Coslett, Dick Lebeau, etc a lackey just happy to have a job. 

I don't care if you had Lombardi or Belicheat[see cleveland browns as coach] in TODAY'S NFL you won't be able to keep quality players if you are cheap. BB has a fine organization and their owner spares no expense in keeping his players comfortable. 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kicker-explains-why-everyone-on-the-patriots-loves-owner-robert-kraft/

The Bengal players don't love Mike Brown, if not for Marvin Lewis they would abandon ship as soon as their contract expired. 

It's the Culture, Culture, Culture!!!!!!

I think you're selling Coughlin short.....remember what he did in Jacksonville?  I mean he took an expansion team to the playoffs in their SECOND SEASON (and won them all but the championship round, btw), went to four straight playoffs during that stretch, a division title in the 3rd year, another in the 4th season, including a shot at the AFCG in the team's 2nd and 4th seasons.  Oh, and I forgot to mention, he did all of this without a GM.....sounds familiar.

I find it hard to fathom that Marvin was held in more esteem than a guy with a phenomenal track record like that.

[Hoofhearted]

(10-25-2018, 04:55 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Not getting snotty. We are friends going way back. We are having a healthy debate among Bengal fans, that is what this website is for right?

We are just speaking two different languages. You say Marvin Lewis is 0-7 in the playoffs, I say we don't even have 7 playoff appearances without Marvin Lewis. I say we are 0-7 with Mike Brown. Facts say we are well, well under .500 with Mike Brown and we are over .500 with Marvin Lewis. AP says Marvin Lewis 2009 coach of the year. Many polls say Mike Brown among  worst owner in Sports.

I am well aware of Tom Coughlin being a New Yorker. I know the Giants organization better then you and their culture for their players/coaches/organization is far, far, far better then the Bengals. What you don't take into consideration are the players/coaches  feel while they come to work Monday-Saturday. Tom Coughlin was a good tough coach, but he would not have retained talent here, nor would he have changed the culture here. Marvin had more respect in the league in 2003 so when Marvin changed the culture, Tom would have been like Shula, Coslett, Dick Lebeau, etc a lackey just happy to have a job. 

I don't care if you had Lombardi or Belicheat[see cleveland browns as coach] in TODAY'S NFL you won't be able to keep quality players if you are cheap. BB has a fine organization and their owner spares no expense in keeping his players comfortable. 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kicker-explains-why-everyone-on-the-patriots-loves-owner-robert-kraft/

The Bengal players don't love Mike Brown, if not for Marvin Lewis they would abandon ship as soon as their contract expired. 

It's the Culture, Culture, Culture!!!!!!

False. He may be a crappy owner for not turning this franchise into the likes of the Pats, but the players do care for him. He gives many, many players second (and in Pacmans case...1,000) chances to play football. 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2724189-adam-pacman-jones-gets-emotional-discussing-bengals-owner-mike-browns-support

They're both at fault here. MB should never, ever let this mediocrity go on this long, but he clearly realizes that he cannot get this team to a higher level, so what's the point. ML is at fault for getting so many chances to get over the hump but has failed every time, each one worse than the other. It starts at the top, but you also need good coaches to carry out the owners goals. Problem is, we have a shitty owner, good coach, so everything falls out of place as far as alignment is concerned. You cannot have your owner not being invested, and your owner cannot have a coach that cannot execute a plan to win a SB (if we did have one).

[BengalYankee]

(10-25-2018, 10:08 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: False. He may be a crappy owner for not turning this franchise into the likes of the Pats, but the players do care for him. He gives many, many players second (and in Pacmans case...1,000) chances to play football. 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2724189-adam-pacman-jones-gets-emotional-discussing-bengals-owner-mike-browns-support

They're both at fault here. MB should never, ever let this mediocrity go on this long, but he clearly realizes that he cannot get this team to a higher level, so what's the point. ML is at fault for getting so many chances to get over the hump but has failed every time, each one worse than the other. It starts at the top, but you also need good coaches to carry out the owners goals. Problem is, we have a shitty owner, good coach, so everything falls out of place as far as alignment is concerned. You cannot have your owner not being invested, and your owner cannot have a coach that cannot execute a plan to win a SB (if we did have one).

You will always find exceptions. Of course Pacman liked Mike Brown, I bet Chris Henry liked him as well. But I can find players who couldn't wait to leave the Bengals[Corey Dillon] or stated during the draft for the Bengals not to draft them. [Marshall Faulk].

If it starts at the top then stay there, why go down to Lewis? Why don't you go to the QB with horrendous stats in his 4 playoff appearances.  
1 TD, 6 INT, 1 Fumble. You blame that on Marvin???

[Hoofhearted]

(10-25-2018, 11:35 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: You will always find exceptions. Of course Pacman liked Mike Brown, I bet Chris Henry liked him as well. But I can find players who couldn't wait to leave the Bengals[Corey Dillon] or stated during the draft for the Bengals not to draft them. [Marshall Faulk].

If it starts at the top then stay there, why go down to Lewis? Why don't you go to the QB with horrendous stats in his 4 playoff appearances.  
1 TD, 6 INT, 1 Fumble. You blame that on Marvin???

Because some players do like playing for him. Mostly because they know he'll honor the contract more than most teams will, so that's a huge bonus to a lot of players.

Ok, now you're just trolling with the last bit of this. You want me to stay at the owner, but you skip the HC and go directly to QB? 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2018, 04:55 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Not getting snotty. We are friends going way back. We are having a healthy debate among Bengal fans, that is what this website is for right?

We are just speaking two different languages. You say Marvin Lewis is 0-7 in the playoffs, I say we don't even have 7 playoff appearances without Marvin Lewis. I say we are 0-7 with Mike Brown. Facts say we are well, well under .500 with Mike Brown and we are over .500 with Marvin Lewis. AP says Marvin Lewis 2009 coach of the year. Many polls say Mike Brown among  worst owner in Sports.

I am well aware of Tom Coughlin being a New Yorker. I know the Giants organization better then you and their culture for their players/coaches/organization is far, far, far better then the Bengals. What you don't take into consideration are the players/coaches  feel while they come to work Monday-Saturday. Tom Coughlin was a good tough coach, but he would not have retained talent here, nor would he have changed the culture here. Marvin had more respect in the league in 2003 so when Marvin changed the culture, Tom would have been like Shula, Coslett, Dick Lebeau, etc a lackey just happy to have a job. 

I don't care if you had Lombardi or Belicheat[see cleveland browns as coach] in TODAY'S NFL you won't be able to keep quality players if you are cheap. BB has a fine organization and their owner spares no expense in keeping his players comfortable. 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kicker-explains-why-everyone-on-the-patriots-loves-owner-robert-kraft/

The Bengal players don't love Mike Brown, if not for Marvin Lewis they would abandon ship as soon as their contract expired. 

It's the Culture, Culture, Culture!!!!!!

What I've driven at - in a roundabout way - is this: how are you so sure Mike has 0 playoff appearances without Marv? Like I said, the other candidate was Tom "friggin" Coughlin. He of 2 Super Bowls. We were also looking at Denny Green, a guy with gobs of success in Minny. Sure, Denny didn't work out in Arizona, but look who his QB's were. They certainly weren't Jon Kitna and Carson Palmer.

Marvin walked into (by FAR) the best Bengals team (talent-wise) of the Mike Brown era. Chad Johnson was already becoming a star. We also had Corey Dillon, Rudi Johnson, Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Rich Braham, Justin Smith, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Peter Warrick, Brian Simmons, and more. We were set up with the rights to take consensus #1 pick Carson Palmer, who was a can't miss franchise QB. 

Basically, the core of what people have dubbed "reboot 1.0" was already there, thanks to Duke Tobin...the guy who hasn't been getting enough credit for the turnaround.

(10-25-2018, 11:35 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: You will always find exceptions. Of course Pacman liked Mike Brown, I bet Chris Henry liked him as well. But I can find players who couldn't wait to leave the Bengals[Corey Dillon] or stated during the draft for the Bengals not to draft them. [Marshall Faulk].

If it starts at the top then stay there, why go down to Lewis? Why don't you go to the QB with horrendous stats in his 4 playoff appearances.  
1 TD, 6 INT, 1 Fumble. You blame that on Marvin???

Yes. Just as I blame 3 TDs, 4 INT, 3 fumbles, 65.0 rating on Marv as well. And how we're giving up over 150 rush yards per game. Or how we're giving up well over a 100 passer rating to opposing QB's. Or how we haven't forced enough turnovers, with like 5 sacks total in 7 games. 

It's the schemes. Good playoff coaches seem to have no problem solving ours. They also know how to make our defense look like a division 3 high school squad.

[fredtoast]

(10-25-2018, 02:05 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: . A Mike Brown led franchise was choosing between Marvin Lewis and Tom Coughlin. Two very good candidates. I'm not sure why Marv apologists always like to ignore this and focus only on Dave Shula/Bruce Coslet (1991-2003). 

Coughlin only won Super Bowls because he worked for an owner that got him some help in free agency.  Just look at their '07 starting lineup....


Their leading receiver was Plaxico Burress who had multiple thousand yard seasons in Pitt before signing with the Giants. 
RT Kareem McKenzie was a three year starter with the Jets before signing with the Giants.  
OC Shaun Ohara was a two year starter for the Browns before signing with the Giants and going to 3 Pro Bowls. 
DT Fred Robbins was a 3 year starter with the Vikings before signing with the Giants. 
MLB Antonio Pierce was a starter in Washington before signing with the Giants and going to a Pro Bowl. 
LB Kawika Mitchell was a starter in Kansas City before signing with the Giants.  
CB Sam Madison was an All Pro with the Dolphins before signing with the Giants.

And how many Pro Bowl players ended up in Cincinnati because they refused to play for the team that rafted them and forced a trade to the Bengals.

I don't even know if Coughlin would have won as many games as Marvin did here.  You can't just compare their records because Marvin was handicapped by working under Mike Brown.