Lets give Marvin credit this season ....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-23-2018, 10:16 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: The point is simple.

Many hypocrites will give Dalton a pass for not advancing towards the playoffs, but will center on Marvin who has been here longer. Well there is someone who has been longer here than Marvin and that is Mike Brown all heat should go there. Look at Mike Brown's history record with the Bengals which is under .500. Look how many years the Bengals missed the playoffs, look how many cheap ass coaches they signed. This team will be pitiful again when Marvin leaves.

Kinda like those hypocrites that bash Dalton but give Merv 16 passes?

I mean, Merv got three playoff games without Dalton and lost those too, so......

People finally realized that there's no way we have continuously drafted choke artists for 16 years......and started looking elsewhere.

[Hoofhearted]

(10-23-2018, 10:16 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: The point is simple.

Many hypocrites will give Dalton a pass for not advancing towards the playoffs, but will center on Marvin who has been here longer. Well there is someone who has been longer here than Marvin and that is Mike Brown all heat should go there. Look at Mike Brown's history record with the Bengals which is under .500. Look how many years the Bengals missed the playoffs, look how many cheap ass coaches they signed. This team will be pitiful again when Marvin leaves.

So MB doesn't also get credit for turning it around and getting into the same PO as ML? Is that not hypocritical?

[motoarch]

(10-23-2018, 10:16 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: The point is simple.

Many hypocrites will give Dalton a pass for not advancing towards the playoffs, but will center on Marvin who has been here longer. Well there is someone who has been longer here than Marvin and that is Mike Brown all heat should go there. Look at Mike Brown's history record with the Bengals which is under .500. Look how many years the Bengals missed the playoffs, look how many cheap ass coaches they signed. This team will be pitiful again when Marvin leaves.

It sounds like we agree but your tone comes of very defensive so I don’t know what to do with this.

Either way we root for the same team and want the same result. My point from the beginning was until this team proves things have changed I’m not getting my hopes up. You seem to have though they had. Now you seem to be retracting that but laying blame somewhere else. And I agree 100% with you on where that blame lies. Let’s go to the top and place it squarely where it belongs on ownership. My dismissal of Marvin wasn’t to leave him as fully responsible but to say look we’ve been here before and until proven otherwise I’m not giving him credit. The last 2 games have proven me right.

[BengalYankee]

(10-23-2018, 11:26 AM)Wyche Wrote: Kinda like those hypocrites that bash Dalton but give Merv 16 passes?

I mean, Merv got three playoff games without Dalton and lost those too, so......

People finally realized that there's no way we have continuously drafted choke artists for 16 years......and started looking elsewhere.

Stop it!!!

Nobody is bashing Dalton.

You are doing exactly what I stated. You state Marvin's loss's, but you conveniently forget that Mike Brown was here with those playoff loss's.

We don't have a hands off owner [eg. Chris Henry]. We have an owner that is very cheap. Why you would stop at Marvin is beyond me.

Every Bengal fan that does not have amnesia really knows what was wrong with this team since Mike Brown fired Sam Wyche. [You of all people should no better ]. Turn in your Wyche's badge.  





********************************************************************************************************************
Since Brown became owner, the team has had 7 winning seasons out of 24 and has a winning percentage of .418 (163-228-1) in the regular season and .000 (0-7) in the playoffs.[24] In 2008, the Bengals set a record for the most games needed under one specific owner to attain 100 wins (288). In 2010, the team set a record for the fewest games needed to lose 200 (both considering and not considering playoffs) under one specific owner (314).[25]
The Bengals hold a number of distinctions for the time frame of Brown's ownership: It is the only team with three nine-game-or-more losing streaks.[26] It also holds six of the twenty-five 0-6 starts (24%)[27] and four of the thirteen 0-8 starts (31%) in that time.[28] The Bengals have gone winless in October nine different times in twenty-two years under five different head coaches (Sam Wyche was originally hired by Paul Brown). As a result of all this, Brown is widely considered to be among the worst owners in the NFL as well as perhaps the worst owner in NFL history. Fans from all NFL teams, players both current and former from all NFL teams, as well as coaches from all NFL teams and NFL analyst's have all stated that Brown has no business running an NFL team and should put his team up for sale.
The most successful coach during Mike Brown's tenure is current coach Marvin Lewis with a .543 winning percentage (112-94-2).[29] The Bengals won the AFC North Division in 2005, 2009, 2013, and 2015 (then losing to the division rival Pittsburgh Steelers, New York Jets, San Diego Chargers, and division rival Pittsburgh Steelers again, respectively) and earned a Wild Card spot in the playoffs in both 2011 and 2012, losing to the Houston Texans both times: 31-10 in the 2011 playoffs and 19-13 in the 2012 post-season. The team then earned a Wild Card (Due to insufficient regular season wins for a bye week in the AFC) match against San Diego in the playoffs of the 2013 season, but lost 10-27 in that 2013 post-season match.
In 2009 Yahoo sports ranked Mike Brown as the second worst owner in the NFL.[30]  

********************************************************************************************************************

[Shake n Blake]

(10-23-2018, 10:16 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: The point is simple.

Many hypocrites will give Dalton a pass for not advancing towards the playoffs, but will center on Marvin who has been here longer. Well there is someone who has been longer here than Marvin and that is Mike Brown all heat should go there. Look at Mike Brown's history record with the Bengals which is under .500. Look how many years the Bengals missed the playoffs, look how many cheap ass coaches they signed. This team will be pitiful again when Marvin leaves.

I'd be one of those "hypocrites". 

Here's the thing: nothing can be done about Mike Brown. He's here until he's dead. There is some hope (however small) that Marvin can be replaced. Also...Mike Brown isn't what's causing this team to soil themselves over and over (and over) again in the same situations. That'd be Marv. We've had several teams that were talented enough to get a playoff BYE and make a SB run. We obviously didn't. At that point, you can't blame Mike. He managed to get the talent together. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-23-2018, 02:02 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Stop it!!!

Nobody is bashing Dalton.

You are doing exactly what I stated. You state Marvin's loss's, but you conveniently forget that Mike Brown was here with those playoff loss's.

We don't have a hands off owner [eg. Chris Henry]. We have an owner that is very cheap. Why you would stop at Marvin is beyond me.

Every Bengal fan that does not have amnesia really knows what was wrong with this team since Mike Brown fired Sam Wyche. [You of all people should no better ]. Turn in your Wyche's badge.  

There's little doubt MB has made this team run a marathon getting a team assembled in what could have been done in a 440 relay. But having said that:
MB is not the one that has played Og and other marginal players way to long, completely screwed time management in game time and time again, had a complete waste of a game plan and been totally unprepared for big games and then refused to adapt. Gotten smoked in the 2nd half of way to many games, let his arch rival own his team at home and overall. Just to name a few.

There's been waaaayyyyyy to much talent on this team for a playoff win not to fall into his lap, 0-7 is inexcusable. 

But keep kidding yourself that Merv isn't a giant yoke on this teams neck.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-23-2018, 02:02 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Stop it!!!

Nobody is bashing Dalton.

You are doing exactly what I stated. You state Marvin's loss's, but you conveniently forget that Mike Brown was here with those playoff loss's.

We don't have a hands off owner [eg. Chris Henry]. We have an owner that is very cheap. Why you would stop at Marvin is beyond me.

Every Bengal fan that does not have amnesia really knows what was wrong with this team since Mike Brown fired Sam Wyche. [You of all people should no better ]. Turn in your Wyche's badge.  





********************************************************************************************************************
Since Brown became owner, the team has had 7 winning seasons out of 24 and has a winning percentage of .418 (163-228-1) in the regular season and .000 (0-7) in the playoffs.[24] In 2008, the Bengals set a record for the most games needed under one specific owner to attain 100 wins (288). In 2010, the team set a record for the fewest games needed to lose 200 (both considering and not considering playoffs) under one specific owner (314).[25]
The Bengals hold a number of distinctions for the time frame of Brown's ownership: It is the only team with three nine-game-or-more losing streaks.[26] It also holds six of the twenty-five 0-6 starts (24%)[27] and four of the thirteen 0-8 starts (31%) in that time.[28] The Bengals have gone winless in October nine different times in twenty-two years under five different head coaches (Sam Wyche was originally hired by Paul Brown). As a result of all this, Brown is widely considered to be among the worst owners in the NFL as well as perhaps the worst owner in NFL history. Fans from all NFL teams, players both current and former from all NFL teams, as well as coaches from all NFL teams and NFL analyst's have all stated that Brown has no business running an NFL team and should put his team up for sale.
The most successful coach during Mike Brown's tenure is current coach Marvin Lewis with a .543 winning percentage (112-94-2).[29] The Bengals won the AFC North Division in 2005, 2009, 2013, and 2015 (then losing to the division rival Pittsburgh Steelers, New York Jets, San Diego Chargers, and division rival Pittsburgh Steelers again, respectively) and earned a Wild Card spot in the playoffs in both 2011 and 2012, losing to the Houston Texans both times: 31-10 in the 2011 playoffs and 19-13 in the 2012 post-season. The team then earned a Wild Card (Due to insufficient regular season wins for a bye week in the AFC) match against San Diego in the playoffs of the 2013 season, but lost 10-27 in that 2013 post-season match.
In 2009 Yahoo sports ranked Mike Brown as the second worst owner in the NFL.[30]  

********************************************************************************************************************

Yankee....you should know all too well that I've ripped Son of Paul RELENTLESSLY since I joined 8 years ago. That said, part of my gripe is his refusal to upgrade the HC. 

The problem here is what Shake said.....we can't do anything about Mike Clown, but Marvin is long past his expiration date.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 06:11 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yankee....you should know all too well that I've ripped Son of Paul RELENTLESSLY since I joined 8 years ago. That said, part of my gripe is his refusal to upgrade the HC. 

The problem here is what Shake said.....we can't do anything about Mike Clown, but Marvin is long past his expiration date.

On the list, a long list, of Mike's biggest mistakes not moving on from Marvin after 10 has to rank very near the top.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-24-2018, 10:58 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: On the list, a long list, of Mike's biggest mistakes not moving on from Marvin after 10 has to rank very near the top.

Right. :andy:

[BengalYankee]

(10-24-2018, 06:11 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yankee....you should know all too well that I've ripped Son of Paul RELENTLESSLY since I joined 8 years ago. That said, part of my gripe is his refusal to upgrade the HC. 

The problem here is what Shake said.....we can't do anything about Mike Clown, but Marvin is long past his expiration date.

It won't be an upgrade, that is the problem. Marvin Lewis is the best coach Mike has hired. We will go back to the 90's if he fires Marvin.
Part of me wishes Marvin leaves, so you can see for yourselves the HELL that would return, but I can't wish that upon myself.

You guys just don't get it. No one of any value will want to come here or stay here. That goes with players as well as coaches.   

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 11:57 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: It won't be an upgrade, that is the problem. Marvin Lewis is the best coach Mike has hired. We will go back to the 90's if he fires Marvin.
Part of me wishes Marvin leaves, so you can see for yourselves the HELL that would return, but I can't wish that upon myself.

You guys just don't get it. No one of any value will want to come here or stay here. That goes with players as well as coaches.   

That's such a tired old argument. So you're willing to continue to wallow in mediocrity forever rather than take a shot at possibly getting much better ?

[BengalYankee]

(10-23-2018, 08:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd be one of those "hypocrites". 

Here's the thing: nothing can be done about Mike Brown. He's here until he's dead. There is some hope (however small) that Marvin can be replaced. Also...Mike Brown isn't what's causing this team to soil themselves over and over (and over) again in the same situations. That'd be Marv. We've had several teams that were talented enough to get a playoff BYE and make a SB run. We obviously didn't. At that point, you can't blame Mike. He managed to get the talent together. 

I like Dalton, I don't think we would have made the playoffs for five years without him. Just like I don't think we would have made the playoffs for five years with a Mike Brown picked coach.

That said, Dalton has been horrible in the playoffs. Interceptions, Pick 6's, fumbles, low passing ratio and poor QB ratings. Things you can't blame on Marvin. I can say Mike Brown has made it not a player friendly environment, not partaking in free agency, losing talent do to free agency. No warm dome or field house during the winter[play off season], etc,etc,etc.

So logically you can take your pick who is to blame.

I pick the owner who has bee bad since 1991 and the only reason he moved up the ladder a little bit was because of 2005 Marvin Lewis's Bengals.

  

[BengalYankee]

(10-24-2018, 12:08 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: That's such a tired old argument. So you're willing to continue to wallow in mediocrity forever rather than take a shot at possibly getting much better ?

Mediocrity s the years before Marvin Lewis was hired and Mike Brown was voted the worst coach in sports via the 90's and early millennium.

We now live in the age of free agency. There are no players/coaches itching to play under Mike Brown. Don't fool yourself.

Mike Brown voted worse owner in sports vs Marvin Lewis 2009 coach of the year.

 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-24-2018, 11:57 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: It won't be an upgrade, that is the problem. Marvin Lewis is the best coach Mike has hired. We will go back to the 90's if he fires Marvin.
Part of me wishes Marvin leaves, so you can see for yourselves the HELL that would return, but I can't wish that upon myself.

You guys just don't get it. No one of any value will want to come here or stay here. That goes with players as well as coaches.   

I get what you are saying....and maybe you are right.  I also am grateful for what Marvin has done, especially in the community.  I think the best option is to make him a member of the FO and let him find a coach.  I dunno.....but his teams are always flat and outgunned in big games and the postseason.  That part is on Marvin.  

[motoarch]

The ‘90s’ was a decade over a decade and a half ago. You seem to think the status quo is the answer because if we lose Marvin we go back to lossing every year automatically.

That’s not a great attitude. I want to win and Marvin’s shown he can’t get over the hump and I’m no longer satisfied with just getting to a wild card game. I was happy with that 10 years ago but not anymore. I was ok with it when there was no hope for anything better to have this exhausting let down every year sucks.

It’s worth exploring a new coach because yes things could get worse but frankly I don’t give a damn cause they sure aren’t getting better anymore with Lewis it’s just more of the same.

Why are you so defensive about this guy always? You related?

[BengalYankee]

(10-24-2018, 01:12 PM)motoarch Wrote: The ‘90s’ was a decade over a decade and a half ago.  You seem to think the status quo is the answer because if we lose Marvin we go back to lossing every year automatically.

That’s not a great attitude.  I want to win and Marvin’s shown he can’t get over the hump and I’m no longer satisfied with just getting to a wild card game.  I was happy with that 10 years ago but not anymore.  I was ok with it when there was no hope for anything better to have this exhausting let down every year sucks.

It’s worth exploring a new coach because yes things could get worse but frankly I don’t give a damn cause they sure aren’t getting better anymore with Lewis it’s just more of the same.

Why are you so defensive about this guy always?  You related?

Lol, no I am not related. But I see the big picture and that is ownership.

I remember the owner hiring one loser coach after another. When free agency came to the NFL, I saw us not partaking and losing quality players. Only signing the garbage no one else wanted. Reading that this team is the only team in the North that doesn't have a winter dome or field house because of the cheapness of the owner. Wasn't Marvin angry that the owner promised and failed to sign Whitworth?

The only smart thing that Mike Brown did was hire Marvin Lewis and I know Marvin can't lead this team far past the playoffs. But his team keeps losing key quality and they won't sign key quality.

KEY LINK YOU ALL MUST READ!!!!

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/7/11/17552714/former-nfl-wr-t-j-houshmandzadeh-reveals-just-how-cheap-the-bengals-used-to-be-pittsburgh-steelers


Key points ...

Rather than provide bottled water or Gatorade in the locker rooms, the players were given only access to a water fountain. While that might seem only a minor hardship, their policy on jock-straps was much more disturbing. As Houshmandzadeh told Cowherd.

Quote:“The year before I got there, [offensive tackle] Willie Anderson was telling me ,they didn't even have jock-straps. They would buy, get a bunch of used jock-straps, throw them in the middle of the locker room and say ‘here you go’.”

The entire interview has to be heard to be believed, and I encourage you to click on the link above to listen to Houshmandzadeh’s words in person. As he observes, the arrival of Marvin Lewis in 2003 brought about a culture change, and many of these practices were quickly ended. But with Brown still very much in charge of the team, you have to wonder about the other ways he’s found to save money these days.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-24-2018, 12:13 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: I like Dalton, I don't think we would have made the playoffs for five years without him. Just like I don't think we would have made the playoffs for five years with a Mike Brown picked coach.

That said, Dalton has been horrible in the playoffs. Interceptions, Pick 6's, fumbles, low passing ratio and poor QB ratings. Things you can't blame on Marvin. I can say Mike Brown has made it not a player friendly environment, not partaking in free agency, losing talent do to free agency. No warm dome or field house during the winter[play off season], etc,etc,etc.

So logically you can take your pick who is to blame.

I pick the owner who has bee bad since 1991 and the only reason he moved up the ladder a little bit was because of 2005 Marvin Lewis's Bengals.

  

Marvin is 0-3 in the playoffs with QB's not named "Andy Dalton". Those QB's have combined for the following numbers:

66 of 118 (55.9% - terrible)
621 yards (5.26 yards per attempt - terrible)
3 TDs to 4 INTs (terrible)
65.0 passer rating (terrible)

...and yes you can blame the Head Coach for terrible player performance. That's why HC's get fired in the first place. They aren't getting the best out of their players. What makes it even more obvious is that we've seen multiple sets of talented players fail in the same situations. And it's not just QB's. Our pass rush disappears. Our o-line can't block. We can't stop the run or the pass. Chad and AJ have put up weak numbers. Etc, etc.

I blame Mike Brown for the 90's, but we've had enough talent to win playoff games during Marv's tenure. The choking is on Marv. I blame Mike for not firing Marv. I pretty much give the players a pass based on Marv's lengthy and dreadful history in prime-time, Steelers and playoff games.

I can't sum up my stance any clearer than this.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 02:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marvin is 0-3 in the playoffs with QB's not named "Andy Dalton". Those QB's have combined for the following numbers:

66 of 118 (55.9% - terrible)
621 yards (5.26 yards per attempt - terrible)
3 TDs to 4 INTs (terrible)
65.0 passer rating (terrible)

...and yes you can blame the Head Coach for terrible player performance. That's why HC's get fired in the first place. They aren't getting the best out of their players. What makes it even more obvious is that we've seen multiple sets of talented players fail in the same situations. And it's not just QB's. Our pass rush disappears. Our o-line can't block. We can't stop the run or the pass. Chad and AJ have put up weak numbers. Etc, etc.

I blame Mike Brown for the 90's, but we've had enough talent to win playoff games during Marv's tenure. The choking is on Marv. I blame Mike for not firing Marv. I pretty much give the players a pass based on Marv's lengthy and dreadful history in prime-time, Steelers and playoff games.

I can't sum up my stance any clearer than this.

We run into a brick wall every time ! And we just keep running into it time and time again. We get out coached, out schemed, out game planned, and fail to adapt in any way. We just get back up and run head first into the wall again.

You would think after dozens of those games Merv would decide to think out of the box and figure out a way around the wall. But nope we come out flat and uninspired every time and run into the wall head first.

That has nothing to do with Mike Brown

[motoarch]

I think we all understand the issues with ownership and I don’t think anyone would disagree it’s a problem. I feel like we are all aware of the issues you’ve linked to. Assuming we’re stuck Marty Schotenhimer; oops I mean mike brown till he dies I’m all in favor of trying a new head coach.


Can I nominate fredtoast?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-24-2018, 02:56 PM)motoarch Wrote: I think we all understand the issues with ownership and I don’t think anyone would disagree it’s a problem.  I feel like we are all aware of the issues you’ve linked to.  Assuming we’re stuck Marty Schotenhimer; oops I mean mike brown till he dies I’m all in favor of trying a new head coach.


Can I nominate fredtoast?

No, 'cause he'll bring back Piano Paul.