Maine Mass Shooting

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-30-2023, 12:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: The answer to your question was in his response I quoted.  If caught, as with anything banned like drugs, that would be confiscated and the person punished by the law.  It explained it clearly and concisely. So I don't have to defend him.

While it also addresses the problem better than saying it is caused by "feminism" and abortion I'll add I don't think his idea would work and would likely never come close to passing as a law...so I wasn't defending him.  I clarified that what you said was wrong.

I know you want to push a false narrative to create the illusion or fascism and the fear that comes with it when it comes to guns but this was a very poor attempt.

I'm not pushing anything, simply reporting on his plans.  Forced confiscation, in defiance of the Constitution, would absolutely be fascism.  It's certainly more related to firearms than blaming feminism, but I don't see that as an ameliorating factor, rather an aggravating one.  

[*Nately120*]

(10-30-2023, 01:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm not pushing anything, simply reporting on his plans.  Forced confiscation, in defiance of the Constitution, would absolutely be fascism.  It's certainly more related to firearms than blaming feminism, but I don't see that as an ameliorating factor, rather an aggravating one.  

Even though we seem dead set on turning things over to fascists, confiscation is impossible. It'll be our civil war and eventually only the most insane or desperate will agree to attempt to confiscate any of the hundreds of millions of firearms in this country. 

We will be fascists with guns. 

EDIT - Actually, Americans are so constitutionally and culturally attached with guns that guns will play a key role in our move into a fascist nation, if they haven't already gotten us a significant way down the path.

[GMDino]

(10-30-2023, 01:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Even though we seem dead set on turning things over to fascists, confiscation is impossible. It'll be our civil war and eventually only the most insane or desperate will agree to attempt to confiscate any of the hundreds of millions of firearms in this country. 

We will be fascists with guns. 

EDIT - Actually, Americans are so constitutionally and culturally attached with guns that guns will play a key role in our move into a fascist nation, if they haven't already gotten us a significant way down the path.

And that's why anyone talking about it ridiculous.  

The question is, if we want to play "slippery slope" when the fascists take over and they are republican will they come for your guns?  Or do own democrat fascists do that? 

[*Nately120*]

(10-30-2023, 02:29 PM)GMDino Wrote: And that's why anyone talking about it ridiculous.  

The question is, if we want to play "slippery slope" when the fascists take over and they are republican will they come for your guns?  Or do own democrat fascists do that? 

No one can take our guns.  Guns are like cancer (I know cancer is bad, but let's just call it a neutral thing for the sake of argument).  Other countries confiscated and regulated guns the way someone with cancer can have a single tumor removed and treated.  The USA for good or ill is a cancer patient with guns like tumors so numerous and deeply embedded within that the amount of chemo or radiation or surgery required to remove them would instantly kill the proverbial patient.  So guns are here to stay.

My main point is that accepting that, I agree with the notion that guns and using guns to influence the government are a USA thing...but that doesn't always mean that we are going to use guns and our American style of government influence to empower the right or best government.  If/when we end up being a fascist nation it will be facilitated by the American "we have the guns and we own the government" mindset.  Just because we have another 1776 doesn't mean it's going to be for the best.

A dictator in a small country with no constitutional right to guns can take guns as part of the strategy, conversely a dictator here is going to realize that guns and the citizens who love 'em and will use 'em are crucial to that strategy.

Or think of it as a real life situation.  If/when someone pulls a gun on you or shows you he/she has a gun you can't change that reality, you have to change the situation to the best of your ability.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-30-2023, 01:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Even though we seem dead set on turning things over to fascists, confiscation is impossible. It'll be our civil war and eventually only the most insane or desperate will agree to attempt to confiscate any of the hundreds of millions of firearms in this country. 

We will be fascists with guns. 

EDIT - Actually, Americans are so constitutionally and culturally attached with guns that guns will play a key role in our move into a fascist nation, if they haven't already gotten us a significant way down the path.

If what you claim is true, why is confiscation repeatedly brought up by the Dems when these incidents occur?  Also, an armed populace is anathema to a totalitarian state, they literally cannot both exist at the same time.  Nazi Germany?  Disarmed populace.  Soviet Union? Disarmed populace.  Iran? Disarmed populace.  North Korea? Disarmed populace. Communist China?  Disarmed populace.

Find me one authoritarian state that had, or has, an armed populace.

[*pally*]

Just in to CNN:
Following his medical evaluation at an Army hospital in July, the Army directed that Sgt. 1st Class Robert Card should not have a weapon or handle ammunition, an Army spokesperson said Monday.

— Shimon Prokupecz (@ShimonPro) October 30, 2023

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-30-2023, 06:52 PM)pally Wrote:

Just in to CNN:
Following his medical evaluation at an Army hospital in July, the Army directed that Sgt. 1st Class Robert Card should not have a weapon or handle ammunition, an Army spokesperson said Monday.

— Shimon Prokupecz (@ShimonPro) October 30, 2023

Which raises the question, did they alert local law enforcement?  Maine has a "yellow flag" law that could have addressed this.  There was a shooter who was former Air Force and would have been a prohibited person but was not as the Air Force did not follow procedure and relay that information to the DoJ.  Is this another example of a shooting that could, and should, have been prevented if laws already on the books were properly followed?

[*pally*]

(10-30-2023, 07:01 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Which raises the question, did they alert local law enforcement?  Maine has a "yellow flag" law that could have addressed this.  There was a shooter who was former Air Force and would have been a prohibited person but was not as the Air Force did not follow procedure and relay that information to the DoJ.  Is this another example of a shooting that could, and should, have been prevented if laws already on the books were properly followed?

yes they were told

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/29/maine-shooting-robert-card-investigation/index.html


The US Army asked local police to check on the reservist [/url]who killed 18 people after a soldier became concerned he would “snap and commit a mass shooting,” according to information shared with CNN.

Officers from the Sagadahoc County and Kennebec County Sheriff’s Offices responded and tried to contact Robert Card on September 16, less than six weeks before last Wednesday’s massacres in a bowling alley and a bar, documents say, according to a law enforcement source.
The information obtained by CNN describes how the Sagadahoc County sergeant called for backup, tried without success to talk to the reservist and then received disturbing details from the Army and the shooter’s family.

The responding sergeant from the Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office was told “when [he] answers the door at his trailer, in the past he usually does so with a handgun in hand out of view from the person outside,” according to the source familiar with the welfare check report.

The responding officer learned later in a letter from the Army that a soldier “is concerned that [the reservist] is going to snap and commit a mass shooting,” according to the report filed in connection with the wellness check.

The 40-year-old went on two shooting rampages in Lewiston, Maine, on Wednesday night, killing 18 people at Just-in-Time Recreation and at Schemengees Bar & Grille.
The initial panic was followed by 48 hours of fear and lockdown before he was found on Friday night, [url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/27/us/maine-shootings-suspect-search-friday]dead from an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound, about 10 miles away.
CNN’s reporting raises new questions about the lack of follow-through to make sure the man was not a danger despite serious warning signs that were known by authorities and are now being publicized for the first time.
The welfare report detailed to CNN repeatedly cited the Maine National Guard as the source of the concerns and the troubling information about the shooter’s actions. The Maine National Guard did not respond to requests for comment before this story’s initial publication, but on Monday said they were not involved.
“[The shooter] was not a member of, nor had he ever served in the Maine National Guard,” an emailed statement read. “All inquiries about his service record should be directed to the US Army Reserve.”
Separately, the US Army answered a CNN request for information, again after this story first appeared, to say the health and wellness check was requested by the shooter’s unit “out of an abundance of caution after the unit became concerned for his safety.” The email statement from Army spokesperson Lt. Col. Ruth Castro continued: “The Army takes all allegations seriously. Due to an ongoing Army investigation, we cannot go into any further details.”
Maine has a “yellow flag” law that can be used to assess an individual with access to weapons. The first step is for law enforcement to take someone believed to be dangerous into custody and then have them evaluated by a medical professional. After a diagnosis, a judge can approve an order to temporarily remove firearms, according to the law.
A File 6 missing person’s report appears to have been generated by the Sagadahoc sergeant who tried to check on the man, the source told CNN, but it is unclear if there was any action in regard to the shooter’s access to weapons. The source said the case appeared to have been closed on October 1, 24 days before the massacres.
CNN started raising questions about what information law enforcement in the state had about threats and the mental health condition of the shooter on Thursday. But when CNN asked State Public Safety Commissioner Mike Sauschuck about it, he replied: “I won’t answer.”
He continued: “Based on what I’ve seen, we’re going to continue to work through that.”
A spokesperson for the state police on Sunday said the organization was the lead agency for the manhunt and homicide investigations but no other aspect, directing CNN to ask questions about what was known before to Sagadahoc County Sheriff Joel Merry.
“The Department of Public Safety (DPS) nor the Maine State Police requested a teletype on Robert Card prior to October 26. It should also be noted that no bulletins or assistance was requested from MSP’s Maine information and analysis center. DPS has no regulatory authority over law-enforcement agencies in Maine,” she said, declining to give any elaboration.
CNN was unable to reach Merry on Sunday. A woman who answered the door at his home said he was “done,” indicating he did not want to speak.
CNN also tried to request comments on this story from the shooter’s family, who did not respond.
Nearly three months before Wednesday’s attacks, the shooter tried to buy a firearm silencer from Coastal Defense Firearms in Auburn, Maine, but the owner of the store, Rick LaChapelle, refused to let him complete the purchase after he disclosed on a form that he had mental health issues, The New York Times reported.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-30-2023, 07:53 PM)pally Wrote: yes they were told

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/29/maine-shooting-robert-card-investigation/index.html


The US Army asked local police to check on the reservist [/url]who killed 18 people after a soldier became concerned he would “snap and commit a mass shooting,” according to information shared with CNN.

Officers from the Sagadahoc County and Kennebec County Sheriff’s Offices responded and tried to contact Robert Card on September 16, less than six weeks before last Wednesday’s massacres in a bowling alley and a bar, documents say, according to a law enforcement source.
The information obtained by CNN describes how the Sagadahoc County sergeant called for backup, tried without success to talk to the reservist and then received disturbing details from the Army and the shooter’s family.

The responding sergeant from the Sagadahoc County Sheriff’s Office was told “when [he] answers the door at his trailer, in the past he usually does so with a handgun in hand out of view from the person outside,” according to the source familiar with the welfare check report.

The responding officer learned later in a letter from the Army that a soldier “is concerned that [the reservist] is going to snap and commit a mass shooting,” according to the report filed in connection with the wellness check.

The 40-year-old went on two shooting rampages in Lewiston, Maine, on Wednesday night, killing 18 people at Just-in-Time Recreation and at Schemengees Bar & Grille.
The initial panic was followed by 48 hours of fear and lockdown before he was found on Friday night, [url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/27/us/maine-shootings-suspect-search-friday]dead from an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound, about 10 miles away.
CNN’s reporting raises new questions about the lack of follow-through to make sure the man was not a danger despite serious warning signs that were known by authorities and are now being publicized for the first time.
The welfare report detailed to CNN repeatedly cited the Maine National Guard as the source of the concerns and the troubling information about the shooter’s actions. The Maine National Guard did not respond to requests for comment before this story’s initial publication, but on Monday said they were not involved.
“[The shooter] was not a member of, nor had he ever served in the Maine National Guard,” an emailed statement read. “All inquiries about his service record should be directed to the US Army Reserve.”
Separately, the US Army answered a CNN request for information, again after this story first appeared, to say the health and wellness check was requested by the shooter’s unit “out of an abundance of caution after the unit became concerned for his safety.” The email statement from Army spokesperson Lt. Col. Ruth Castro continued: “The Army takes all allegations seriously. Due to an ongoing Army investigation, we cannot go into any further details.”
Maine has a “yellow flag” law that can be used to assess an individual with access to weapons. The first step is for law enforcement to take someone believed to be dangerous into custody and then have them evaluated by a medical professional. After a diagnosis, a judge can approve an order to temporarily remove firearms, according to the law.
A File 6 missing person’s report appears to have been generated by the Sagadahoc sergeant who tried to check on the man, the source told CNN, but it is unclear if there was any action in regard to the shooter’s access to weapons. The source said the case appeared to have been closed on October 1, 24 days before the massacres.
CNN started raising questions about what information law enforcement in the state had about threats and the mental health condition of the shooter on Thursday. But when CNN asked State Public Safety Commissioner Mike Sauschuck about it, he replied: “I won’t answer.”
He continued: “Based on what I’ve seen, we’re going to continue to work through that.”
A spokesperson for the state police on Sunday said the organization was the lead agency for the manhunt and homicide investigations but no other aspect, directing CNN to ask questions about what was known before to Sagadahoc County Sheriff Joel Merry.
“The Department of Public Safety (DPS) nor the Maine State Police requested a teletype on Robert Card prior to October 26. It should also be noted that no bulletins or assistance was requested from MSP’s Maine information and analysis center. DPS has no regulatory authority over law-enforcement agencies in Maine,” she said, declining to give any elaboration.
CNN was unable to reach Merry on Sunday. A woman who answered the door at his home said he was “done,” indicating he did not want to speak.
CNN also tried to request comments on this story from the shooter’s family, who did not respond.
Nearly three months before Wednesday’s attacks, the shooter tried to buy a firearm silencer from Coastal Defense Firearms in Auburn, Maine, but the owner of the store, Rick LaChapelle, refused to let him complete the purchase after he disclosed on a form that he had mental health issues, The New York Times reported.

Very tragic, if the laws already on the books had actually been followed all of these people would almost certainly still be alive. Parkland and the former Air Force shooter being two other examples of the top of my head.


Speaking of Parkland, I was alerted by a minor's school that they were concerned about a kid being a potential mass shooter.  The minor in question was on probation, with a search condition, for two separate incidents of bringing a loaded hand gun to school.  This was less than ten days after Parkland.  The house was searched and we didn't find anything.  A few days later I got berated by my direct superior's boss for "violating that family's privacy"  without a "good reason".  I reiterated our reason for conducting the search and the response was, and I am not kidding, "But you didn't find anything in the search."  I guess if we had found a gun then we wouldn't have been violating that family's privacy?  You'd be dismayed to find out how much this kind of crap happens.

[*Nately120*]

(10-30-2023, 06:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If what you claim is true, why is confiscation repeatedly brought up by the Dems when these incidents occur?  Also, an armed populace is anathema to a totalitarian state, they literally cannot both exist at the same time.  Nazi Germany?  Disarmed populace.  Soviet Union? Disarmed populace.  Iran? Disarmed populace.  North Korea? Disarmed populace. Communist China?  Disarmed populace.

This stuff is brought up by both sides because it gets votes and makes money.  Vote for me and donate to me and I'll make sure we have fewer guns in these dangerous hands, vote for me and donate to me and I'll make sure we have more guns in safe hands.  Also, buy this gun before they ban it.  I know people who want gun control and I know people who will twist anything into "It's all so they can take our guns."  This stuff motivates on both sides, so when I was born in 81 until the day I die people are going to be talking about how we need more/less gun control.  It is a certainty.

(10-30-2023, 06:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Find me one authoritarian state that had, or has, an armed populace.

Stay tuned.  Maybe everything stays swell, but I'm telling you if this country ever becomes authoritarian it will be done with the willing participation of an armed populace that has been cajoled into fighting and dying to make it authoritarian under the belief that they are doing the opposite thing.  We've been told CANDIDATE B is an authoritarian, so we need to use our 2A to compel people to vote for CANDIDATE A.  

I have to level with you, I'm a bit of a coward and if people are using their 2A to make sure their candidate gets elected I'm probably going to let them get away with it.  All I can do is hope that they are using that 2A to compel the government to be not authoritarian.  Much like any situation where someone is waving a gun around, your best defense is the faint hope that the person with said gun has enough foresight to not use it for something bad.

So I'm not saying having guns will lead to USA authoritarianism, but if we become authoritarian it will be due to the will of citizens with guns.  You can't take the guns from the citizens, so you bring them into your cause.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

Not that I'm for this, but if you really wanted to get rid of most weapons just do bans on getting new ones, pay for turned in ones, and over a long period of time the pool of weapons from around the country would eventually shrink.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2023, 04:42 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Not that I'm for this, but if you really wanted to get rid of most weapons just do bans on getting new ones, pay for turned in ones, and over a long period of time the pool of weapons from around the country would eventually shrink.

There are plenty of unconstitutional "solutions" to problems.  Law enforcement could effectively destroy street gang activity in the US within a few weeks if you suspended the Constitution.  The point being that a lot of major issues could be resolved if we didn't care about our bedrock freedoms.  

[*pally*]

(10-28-2023, 12:08 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: One more time red flags everywhere, but he spends 2 weeks in a mental hospital and is released. Then gots on shooting spree. In the old days, there were mental hospitals and these individuals never got out or went through rigorous therapy before they got out.

We have a mental illness problem, not a gun problem. I have never heard of one sane person killing people in mass.

People all over the world suffer from mental illness.  Why is it only the United States have repeated incidences of mass unprovoked shootings/murders in public locations?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2023, 12:35 PM)pally Wrote: People all over the world suffer from mental illness.  Why is it only the United States have repeated incidences of mass unprovoked shootings/murders in public locations?

We're not.  When you get your facts from sources that actually care about them, rather than agitprop, you'll get a rather different picture.

https://www.gunfacts.info/gun-policy-info/mass-shootings/

One thing to remember about the anti-gun side of this debate, they lie.  Not only do they lie, they lie big, they do s deliberately and they continue t lie after the lie is pointed out. When your side has to lie, continually, about basic facts such as the entirely debunked, "guns are the number one cause of death for children", then maybe, just maybe, your side is in the wrong.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

David Hogg wants to ban all semi-auto rifles.  Que the usual crowd telling us he's only an activist and ignore the fact that he's been propped up by the Dems since he started getting publicity.

If you don’t support banning semi automatic rifles you should leave the Democratic Party and join the Guns Over People party.

— David Hogg ? (@davidhogg111) October 30, 2023

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