Mass shootings

[GMDino]

(02-20-2018, 03:25 AM)Benton Wrote: Every time I've done a gun law/ gun violence story, I get the same response from gun stores and even guys who make their living at shows. They almost all advocate for expanded background checks or more uniform background checks. Of course, even if that were to happen, you've still got to have the FBI not drop the ball, which has been happening.

This is what is so baffling/frustrating.  The rank and file, the average citizen, they all want these changes and feel good about them but the leaders and the politicians think they're going to lose power/votes/money and won't do anything. 

And they keep getting voted back in so maybe they are right?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2018, 10:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have yet to see anything in the reporting about the school. I saw your comment about it, but I have seen reporting on the other groups and so that is why I focused on them.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/11/05/243250817/fla-school-district-trying-to-curb-school-to-prison-pipeline

Quote:In Florida, one of the nation's largest school districts has overhauled its discipline policies with a single purpose in mind — to reduce the number of children going into the juvenile justice system.

Quote:It's a move away from so-called "zero tolerance" policies that require schools to refer even minor misdemeanors to the police. Critics call it a "school to prison pipeline."

There are two things to learn from this statement.  One, that the government can never get it right, they go from one extreme to the other.  No porridge for Goldilocks.  Second, anytime you hear a buzzword or phrase such as "school to prison pipeline" you know you're about to hear some steaming bulllshit policy.

Quote:Civil rights and education activists say the policy can be a model for the nation.

I certainly hope not.

Finally

Quote:But Marcia Ellison, a member of the local NAACP, said this agreement goes further than the other programs: "What Broward has done is gone to make sure the administration is truly back in charge of the school. They have changed their school code of conduct which was a tool of funneling these kids. That has not happened across the country."

The road to hell and something about intentions comes to mind.  

[BmorePat87]

(02-20-2018, 10:31 AM)GMDino Wrote: This is what is so baffling/frustrating.  The rank and file, the average citizen, they all want these changes and feel good about them but the leaders and the politicians think they're going to lose power/votes/money and won't do anything. 

And they keep getting voted back in so maybe they are right?

We were discussing interest groups and political spending in class so I presented some numbers and let them talk about it.

NRA membership: 5m
NRA spending in the 2016 election: $58m

AARP membership: 38m
AARP spending in the 2016 election: $9m

No commentary, just let them talk about it.

[Griever]

(02-20-2018, 12:16 AM)GMDino Wrote: I asked (don't know if it was here or not) about why the person who reported him didn't go to the local police too.  I think I read they did that also.  I'd put it more on them than the FBI for not following up or not finding a problem.

At least someone did the right thing at reported his behavior.  Baby steps I suppose.

Florida drops the ball in a lot of these situations

cops were at his house 39 times in a year (for a range of different things), and i think (dont quote me) that they had a video of him cutting himself. How he was still allowed to purchase any type of weapon is ridiculous

it shouldnt have been as easy as it was for him to go in and purchase the weapon though, and thats a problem taht needs to be rectified 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-19-2018, 02:41 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Young people do not love to get likes, shares, and attention? They are getting celebrity type treatment. By that I mean attention. You don’t have to coerce young people to do things that get them more attention and popularity. You do however need to protect them from that attention. It’s hard enough for child celebs to deal with the attention and now we are expecting children who have no way of dealing with this much attention plus who are dealing with the fact they saw their classmates gunned down.

This is something we should protecting them from, not encouraged to run towards. There are several stages of grief and none of them include burying it under celeb like attention. When the attention goes away these kids will be hurting.

Yeah, 17 students and teachers are shot to death and we need to protect the survivors of the shooting spree from . . . attention.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 07:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  How about this then, Freddy?  Gun laws will only restrict the activities of law abiding citizens. 

The gun laws I propose will not restrict the rights of law abiding citizens in any way.  They will still be able to buy and own guns.

I guess if a law abiding citizen was insane it might restrict his activities, but I doubt you have a problem with that.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 07:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Wait, a person who acquires a gun illegally isn't a criminal?

Yes, but they have no criminal history.

How are you going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals before you know they are criminals?

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 07:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This simply isn't correct.  Under such a scenario there are numerous ways that the guns could be confiscated.  As a lawyer I'm suprised you're not aware of this.

No there are not.  Not without some additional evidence.

Without gun registration laws there is absolutely no way to prove which gun belongs to which person (without some additional evidence).

So please explain these "numerous ways".

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 07:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Probably the empirical evidence from ~1992-2015.

I just quoted s study that shows that 80% of gun violence is committed by people who are not the legal owner of the gun.

Do you know what the word "empirical" means?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2018, 12:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The gun laws I propose will not restrict the rights of law abiding citizens in any way.  They will still be able to buy and own guns.

I guess if a law abiding citizen was insane it might restrict his activities, but I doubt you have a problem with that.

I already responded to this.  If the list was never used for any purpose, ever, other than determining who is the actual owner of the gun then no one would have a problem with it.  Unfortunately, that is not the case.  CA is already demanding that certain types of guns be registered and that, upon the owner's death, said firearm must either be surrendered to law enforcement, rendered inoperable or permanently sent out of state.  The reason that actually "reasonable" or "common sense" measures such as you propose are not supported by gun owners is because they aren't a solution to a problem, they're an opening for more restrictions down the road.

(02-20-2018, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes, but they have no criminal history.

How are you going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals before you know they are criminals?

Unless they have something that red flags them in a NICS case you can't and you shouldn't.  Someone should not lose a Constitutionally protected right simply because they "might" be a criminal or "might" be a bad person.  What you're advocating is proactive solutions where proactive violates a person's rights.  Trust me when I say law enforcement knows about a lot more crime than they can arrest people for.  As Denzel put it in Training Day, it's not what you know it's what you can prove.  Law enforcement could end 99% of gang violence in one week if you threw away the Constitutionally protected rights of the people law enforcement "knows" to be gang members.  Crime would drop like a rock.  You'd also be living in the beginnings of a police state, which, I would hope, no one here wants.

If you have freedom then some will abuse it.  Freedom is painful, it comes with a lot of responsibility and you cannot have guaranteed freedom and guaranteed safety, they simply cannot coexist.  I'll take freedom and the inherent risks over the blanket of big brother all day, every day.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 07:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Because I don't like post whores, I though I made that clear.

But I don't know why you hate post whores.

Why do you let me get in your head just because I address different points in different posts?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2018, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But I don't know why you hate post whores.

Why do you let me get in your head just because I address different points in different posts?

I'm just pointing out to everyone that you enjoy artificially inflating your post numbers. 

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 07:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When I make different arguments it is easier for people to respond to individual arguments if they are in separate threads instead of having to do all that deleting.

(02-19-2018, 07:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So you have trouble mentally keeping up with posts that respond to more than one point at a time.  Got it.

Thank you.  This post is a perfect example of your debate tactics. 

Whenever you are unable to address what I actually say you just make up something.

This is the exact same tactic my 13 year old daughter uses when she can not respond to what I actually say.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2018, 12:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thank you.  This post is a perfect example of your debate tactics. 

Whenever you are unable to address what I actually say you just make up something.

This is the exact same tactic my 13 year old daughter uses when she can not respond to what I actually say.

Hahaha, how did your head not explode as you typed that?

[fredtoast]

(02-20-2018, 12:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm just pointing out to everyone that you enjoy artificially inflating your post numbers. 

There is nothing "artificial" about responding to different points in different posts.

And please post every link you can find to me mentioning my post count.  I don't give a flip about my post count, and it is sad that you are so obsessed with it.

[fredtoast]

(02-20-2018, 12:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hahaha, how did your head not explode as you typed that?

Completely avoiding the topic and responding with meaningless hyperbole is another favorite tactic of my 13 year old daughter.

[Bengalholic]

(02-20-2018, 10:02 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The narrative has been on the FBI, and there is a reason for that I won't expand on here. But local police (because they were aware of his issues), Social Services, and the mental health professional(s) he was seeing all share a larger portion of the blame for dropping the ball than the FBI does.

Very good point. The people all had actual interactions with him and Social Services even deemed him 'low risk'. 

There's no doubt that the FBI - by their own admission - botched the process and relaying of information, but there were countless opportunities for others in positions of power to take action long before that. 

Those who take it a step farther and blame the Mueller/Russia investigation are really grasping for straws. There are multitudes of ongoing investigations that are always going on in the FBI, which require manpower...so it's curious when people single out the Special Counsel investigation as the primary factor in the FBI's failure in this shooting. Partisanship at it's worst and why I generally hate politics.

My wife's day job is working in school administration, so the issue of school/child safety gets talked about a lot in our house. The fact that the real focus of every conversation about this topic isn't on reasonable steps we can take to make it more difficult for these tragedies to happen, is disappointing as hell. 

[Belsnickel]

(02-20-2018, 01:02 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: My wife's day job is working in school administration, so the issue of school/child safety gets talked about a lot in our house. The fact that the real focus of every conversation about this topic isn't on what reasonable steps we can take make it more difficult for these tragedies to happen in the future, is disappointing as hell. 

Here's the rub: what needs to be done won't be reasonable to a sizable swath of people. The discussion around gun control with school shootings is, in all honesty, pointless. I've said so several times. What really needs to happen is an investment in public education so that our schools have the resources to work with students in a way they need and deserve. Federal spending has been going up, but state spending has been cut in many places making things difficult. Hell, the high school here is currently ~500 students over capacity and there is currently no plan in place to relieve that in the next 5 years. In one of the fastest growing municipalities in Virginia.

When educators can't devote time to students due to a lack of resources, they slip through the cracks. When we don't have school counselors, students can slip through the cracks. When these students slip through the cracks, we can get school shootings.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-20-2018, 01:02 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Very good point. The people all had actual interactions with him and Social Services even deemed him 'low risk'. 

There's no doubt that the FBI - by their own admission - botched the process and relaying of information, but there were countless opportunities for others in positions of power to take action long before that. 

Those who take it a step farther and blame the Mueller/Russia investigation are really grasping for straws. There are multitudes of ongoing investigations that are always going on in the FBI, which require manpower...so it's curious when people single out the Special Counsel investigation as the primary factor in the FBI's failure in this shooting. Partisanship at it's worst and why I generally hate politics.

My wife's day job is working in school administration, so the issue of school/child safety gets talked about a lot in our house. The fact that the real focus of every conversation about this topic isn't on what reasonable steps we can take make it more difficult for these tragedies to happen in the future, is disappointing as hell. 

(02-20-2018, 01:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here's the rub: what needs to be done won't be reasonable to a sizable swath of people. The discussion around gun control with school shootings is, in all honesty, pointless. I've said so several times. What really needs to happen is an investment in public education so that our schools have the resources to work with students in a way they need and deserve. Federal spending has been going up, but state spending has been cut in many places making things difficult. Hell, the high school here is currently ~500 students over capacity and there is currently no plan in place to relieve that in the next 5 years. In one of the fastest growing municipalities in Virginia.

When educators can't devote time to students due to a lack of resources, they slip through the cracks. When we don't have school counselors, students can slip through the cracks. When these students slip through the cracks, we can get school shootings.

I completely agree with you both.  There is a lot that could have been done to prevent this.  All of these things could be done in the future as well.  As I stated above, at your request Matt, the school district's own policy prevented Cruz's numerous criminal acts from being reported to law enforcement.  Here's the latest person pointing out how many times this kid was referred to school authorities.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/florida-shooter-former-friend-gma_us_5a8c1890e4b0117adf71f83f

As for social services, they clearly didn't do their job at all if they described this kid as low risk.  He engaged in just about every red flag behavior there is, killing animals, threatening people both in person and on social media, prone to violence, obsessed with guns and knives.  I also heard he was a cutter, which is much rarer in males than females.  The behavior is usually linked to childhood sexual abuse, especially in females.  In men it's a huge red flag.

Numerous services failed this kid and all of his victims.  As you both state, the gun is the lowest hanging fruit in the story and also the one least likely to be addressed in the way some want it to be.  The actual culprits in this incident are identifiable and fixable.

[Belsnickel]

(02-20-2018, 01:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I completely agree with you both.  There is a lot that could have been done to prevent this.  All of these things could be done in the future as well.  As I stated above, at your request Matt, the school district's own policy prevented Cruz's numerous criminal acts from being reported to law enforcement.  Here's the latest person pointing out how many times this kid was referred to school authorities.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/florida-shooter-former-friend-gma_us_5a8c1890e4b0117adf71f83f

As for social services, they clearly didn't do their job at all if they described this kid as low risk.  He engaged in just about every red flag behavior there is, killing animals, threatening people both in person and on social media, prone to violence, obsessed with guns and knives.  I also heard he was a cutter, which is much rarer in males than females.  The behavior is usually linked to childhood sexual abuse, especially in females.  In men it's a huge red flag.

Numerous services failed this kid and all of his victims.  As you both state, the gun is the lowest hanging fruit in the story and also the one least likely to be addressed in the way some want it to be.  The actual culprits in this incident are identifiable and fixable.

Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. I don't know enough about gun laws in Florida to say whether any of that would have prevented him from obtaining a firearm. I do know, however, that the systems failed him and as a result failed every student in that school and the entire community that is grieving.