(11-01-2017, 02:40 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Oh poor Andy!! He is such an amazing QB if only he had a line!!. Dalton apologists make me sick!! 7 seasons of mediocre play 0-4 in playoffs and he did absolutely zero in those playoff games. We had successful years despite Andy being average. In 2015 he played over his head. The excuses for him change every year one year its he has no weapons now its line blah blah give me a break. And people listen to Lap like its the gospel. Yes he's knowledgeable and gives great insight, but he will never throw anyone under the bus especially Andy cause it wouldn't be smart considering he interviews these dudes so take what he sais with a grain of salt. Even after Andys 4 interception game you would have thought Andy did nothing wrong after listening to Lap.
Hhhmmmmm, and here I thought I remembered hearing Lap berate Jermaine Gresham over being "soft". Or the time I heard him question Ogbuehi.....or the time I heard him call out the oline just this week. In fact, I've heard him call out Dalton's horrible plays (along with a slew of others) during radio broadcasts. Hmmmm.....musta been a figment of my imagination.....
(BTW, Lance McCallister was the one posting those vines :andy: )
(10-31-2017, 12:47 PM)Paul from Dayton Wrote: 7 games in and this is literally the worst o-line performance I've seen, and it's against the Colts... PA should have been fired in the locker room post game.
Yeah I was about to say bad players are just bad and can’t be coached around but it actually seemed like the scheme was to give dudes free run at Andy
Like he’s tryna get him hurt so AJM can play or something
(11-01-2017, 12:06 PM)PhilHos Wrote: ON my way home from work yesterday, I was listening to the Bengals live 700WLW podcast from the day before and McAlister and Lapham were talking with Hopkins and, OMG, they were giving the OL a HUGE break! Hopkins may not be all that bad (they started off saying that PFF had him as our highest rated OL on Sunday and giving him props), but him and Lap were saying things like each OL could be graded at a 95 but their overall grade would be a 75 and stuff like that and I'm like, who the [expletive deleted] is grading ANY of our individual olinmen a 95? I get that they didn't want to dump on Hopkins especially considering he's not Og, Fisher or Bodine, but still ... c'mon!
To his credit, Hopkins contacted them and asked if he should still come and they said, 'yes' and he still showed up.
Oh and we read way too much into pff ratings. I don't need to see William Jacksons rating to know he's is having a great year. I watch the games and see it for myself. Does anyone actually watch a player anymore or do we just look at stats that don't necessarily tell the real story. And what if the QB doesn't make the right move in the pocket yet that will show bad for the lineman. Again PFF is cool to look at it but its not the be all end all.
(11-01-2017, 02:50 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Oh and we read way too much into pff ratings. I don't need to see William Jacksons rating to know he's is having a great year. I watch the games and see it for myself. Does anyone actually watch a player anymore or do we just look at stats that don't necessarily tell the real story. And what if the QB doesn't make the right move in the pocket yet that will show bad for the lineman. Again PFF is cool to look at it but its not the be all end all.
Stats really piss me off
Each sport has a couple stats I personally like such as PER and win shares in basketball and YAC and QBR but most stats are just trash
(11-01-2017, 02:50 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Oh and we read way too much into pff ratings. I don't need to see William Jacksons rating to know he's is having a great year. I watch the games and see it for myself. Does anyone actually watch a player anymore or do we just look at stats that don't necessarily tell the real story. And what if the QB doesn't make the right move in the pocket yet that will show bad for the lineman. Again PFF is cool to look at it but its not the be all end all.
Nothing in this post refutes a single thing I said. Heck, I never even mentioned PFF! And are you seriously defending this OL? Really? I don't know why I even bother. Someone who thinks every single season Dalton has been a mediocre QB AND actually think it's Dalton's fault this OL does poor CLEARLY doesn't have an opinion worth wasting time on.
(11-01-2017, 03:04 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Nothing in this post refutes a single thing I said. Heck, I never even mentioned PFF! And are you seriously defending this OL? Really? I don't know why I even bother. Someone who thinks every single season Dalton has been a mediocre QB AND actually think it's Dalton's fault this OL does poor CLEARLY doesn't have an opinion worth wasting time on.
So long and thanks for all the fish. SMH
Yes I do think he's a mediocre QB. And I'm not disputing the Oline is bad and needs help. Listen I cant help the people that don't see Dalton as a problem. I think Andy is a major problem you don't. It is what is!!
(11-01-2017, 02:40 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Oh poor Andy!! He is such an amazing QB if only he had a line!!. Dalton apologists make me sick!! 7 seasons of mediocre play 0-4 in playoffs and he did absolutely zero in those playoff games. We had successful years despite Andy being average. In 2015 he played over his head. The excuses for him change every year one year its he has no weapons now its line blah blah give me a break. And people listen to Lap like its the gospel. Yes he's knowledgeable and gives great insight, but he will never throw anyone under the bus especially Andy cause it wouldn't be smart considering he interviews these dudes so take what he sais with a grain of salt. Even after Andys 4 interception game you would have thought Andy did nothing wrong after listening to Lap.
So, lets's take a look at the 4 playoff games that Andy played in.
In 2011 against the Texans, the leading rusher and receiver was Brian Leonard. The offensive performance was putrid overall. The defense was gashed for 188 yards rushing. The entire team stunk up the joint.
In 2012 against the Texans, they Bengals ran the ball a grand total of 16 times and the O was held under 200 yards. Again, an abysmal performance. The D allowed Schaub to complete 29/38 and gave up over 400 yards.
In 2013 against the Chargers, the entire team forgot they had to play the 2nd half in one of the most embarrassing halves of football I'v ever seen in a playoff game. The coaching staff had absolutely no answers.
In 2014 against the Colts, they were riddled with injuries but were only down 3 at the half. Then, once again, the entire team did absolutely nothing in the 2nd half. On top of that, the D gave up almost 500 yards.
Yes, Andy certainly played his part in these losses, but so did basically the entire team and coaching staff. They were top-to-bottom failures.
While I don't think Andy is an 'elite' QB and still has faults that can be frustrating at times, I do think he's a very good NFL QB and takes far more blame than he deserves. I don't have an issue with people criticizing him after a bad performance, as long as you also acknowledge when he plays well. What I don't like is people who simply bash everything he does without providing valid reasons for it.
(10-31-2017, 02:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: In 2014 and 2015, Bodine was probably the only true liability, but I think especially in 2014 fans gave him (somewhat of) a pass because he was a rookie.
But overall, the line was pretty solid. OL can typically be fine with one bad performer.
Then in 2016 Andre Smith left and we saw how impactful it was to have a bad center along with a bad RT.
And finally, the culmination, losing LT and RG, which showed just how terrible these players really are.
It's pathetic, and we all knew it, but some fans (for some stupid reason) had faith/belief that these players would magically improve with more coaching.
That would probably be because the people who are supposed to know what the heck they are talking about - as evidenced by their hefty paychecks - were assuring us that there was not a problem and that these players WOULD magically improve with more coaching... Just leave it to the professionals.
But you don't have to be an ornithologist to know we have at least 3 Dodos on that line that are incapable of flight.
(11-01-2017, 04:10 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Yes I do think he's a mediocre QB. And I'm not disputing the Oline is bad and needs help. Listen I cant help the people that don't see Dalton as a problem. I think Andy is a major problem you don't. It is what is!!
You can't help anyone because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
(11-01-2017, 04:10 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: Yes I do think he's a mediocre QB. And I'm not disputing the Oline is bad and needs help. Listen I cant help the people that don't see Dalton as a problem. I think Andy is a major problem you don't. It is what is!!
Dude has a winning record as a starter. Outside of AJ Green and maybe Whitworth, there has no been no elite talent on offense. He's set franchise records in a couple stats. How can you say he's a problem, let alone a "major" one?
(10-31-2017, 11:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: Oh horseshit. We've seen PLENTY of them. The entire 90s decade....that bullshit they trotted out there Palmers last few years, and now this abomination. Give me a break. Mike Brown and his ***** Toadie get lucky a couple times in a quarter century and you act like a bunch of future Canton busts have made their living here. Ppppffffttt!!!!
I think the fact you have to go back almost 30 years to call horseshit speaks for itself. Palmer was always well protected. He did get his nose busted in a preseason game once and folks lost their minds, but his protection was always well above average.
Andy has had a very good oline his whole career up to this point. like I said each year a handful of QBs have to deal with an atrocious Oline. This year is Andy's and it is all folks can talk about.
(11-01-2017, 04:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Andy has had a very good oline his whole career up to this point. like I said each year a handful of QBs have to deal with an atrocious Oline. This year is Andy's and it is all folks can talk about.
There's a reason fans talk about it a lot when their QB is continuously taking a beating...because it affects every thing the offense does. Absolutely nothing in football stands out more than watching a QB get mauled behind a porous line.
(11-01-2017, 05:05 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: There's a reason fans talk about it a lot when their QB is continuously taking a beating...because it affects every thing the offense does. Absolutely nothing in football stands out more than watching a QB get mauled behind a porous line.
Yes, but I personally feel it is overkill in this forum and the reason is what I have stated. We haven't had to go through it especially at the blindside.
Any subject that is brought up in this forum eventually goes back to the oline; it's like Kevin bacon.
(11-01-2017, 04:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the fact you have to go back almost 30 years to call horseshit speaks for itself. Palmer was always well protected. He did get his nose busted in a preseason game once and folks lost their minds, but his protection was always well above average.
Andy has had a very good oline his whole career up to this point. like I said each year a handful of QBs have to deal with an atrocious Oline. This year is Andy's and it is all folks can talk about.
I can't say I disagree, except that the OL wasn't very good last year, either.
Also, one of the reasons - if not the MAIN reason - that it's all folks can talk about is that many people believe that with a more competent OL, this team is a contender because there are few weaknesses elsewhere (remember, I'm speaking of their perception, not necessarily about reality). The belief is that the defense is top notch, that we have good-to-great RB in Bernard and Mixon, our receivers and TEs are pretty good, etc. etc.
Obviously we can debate the veracity of all those things, but the fact remains that the OL is THE biggest weakness - aside from coaching, maybe - and it's having a tremendous, negative effect on the team as a whole.
(11-01-2017, 05:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, but I personally feel it is overkill in this forum and the reason is what I have stated. We haven't had to go through it especially at the blindside.
Any subject that is brought up in this forum eventually goes back to the oline; it's like Kevin bacon.
If you're talking just Palmer/Dalton era, I agree, we've never seen anything close to this bad as far as the whole o-line and as you said, especially at LT.
We saw issues at C, RT and LG at different times during those years, but yeah, to have an entire line playing like shit at the same time is new territory for this era...and why the conversation does usually lead back there.
I do remember some of those mid to late 90's lines being pretty rough to watch as well.
(11-01-2017, 05:33 PM)PhilHos Wrote: it's only human.
it'sonly human
it's only human
it's only human
it's only human
lol.
I was too lazy to finish the sentence, it's only human to have that reaction. It also meant that Dalton is only human though, in the symbolic sense, everything has to go our way for this guy to take us past a superbowl.
(11-01-2017, 04:50 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Dude has a winning record as a starter. Outside of AJ Green and maybe Whitworth, there has no been no elite talent on offense. He's set franchise records in a couple stats. How can you say he's a problem, let alone a "major" one?
He had an elite TE in 2015. No coincidence it was one of Dalton's best years.
I encourage everybody to watch the all 22 that Joe goodberry and that other guy do every week. They put it on YouTube for a short time too until it's removed. This Indy game was really the worst I've seen out of the o line , and Andy actually stood in there when he knew he was going yo get hit and gave his receiver a chance, this isn't common from Andy. He usually runs or ducks. But I am not a Dalton believer or lover really . The tape even shows ,it's both Andy and the o line. Even in the Indy game he's just inaccurate on a few easy type throws. But overall he did a good job I thought. Now I do think Marvin and Mike Brown are idiots to not try to fix the o line any way possible. Can they tinker with the o line at all besides the stupid rotation. Can you try tj Johnson at center ? Which I'm pretty sure would be a upgrade over the worst center in the league Bodine. Nope we are too complacent. Our only hope is if a sucky player got hurt.
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