Mississippi Bill Would Force Schools to Pay $1,500 for Not Saying the Pledge Early

[BigPapaKain]

(01-11-2017, 06:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course you can; it is publically funded education. Don't want to pledge go to private school.

Nothing wrong with developing a sense of loyalty into one's country.

Have you ever been in a school in Afhghanistan or are you just guessing? I'll tell you that National pride is not at the top of the list.

And the public has the right to say or not say what they want so long as it doesn't pose a threat to anyone else.

Forcing people to do things against their will is not a good way to develop a sense of loyalty to the body doing the forcing. Period. Did you ever stop to think that maybe nations like Afghanistan don't swell with pride is because their people spent so long being forced to play the part? 

I mean it's not like the youth of any country rebel just for the sake of rebelling when you tell them they HAVE to do something.

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2017, 06:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nothing wrong with developing a sense of loyalty into one's country.

Can we make voting mandatory next?  People died for our right to vote, so it's a pretty big slap in their face if you don't do it, right?

[GMDino]

(01-11-2017, 06:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course you can; it is publically funded education. Don't want to pledge go to private school.

Nothing wrong with developing a sense of loyalty into one's country.

Have you ever been in a school in Afhghanistan or are you just guessing? I'll tell you that National pride is not at the top of the list.

Eh, I'm against forcing loyalty on students.

But then I'm against forcing religion on them too.

I'd rather they just be educated so they can graduate and make the world a better place.

[*bfine32*]

(01-11-2017, 06:07 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: And the public has the right to say or not say what they want so long as it doesn't pose a threat to anyone else.

Let me guess: 9th grader from Ohio. 

[*bfine32*]

I get the libs equating starting your elementary education with a affirmation of loyalty to your country to places such as NK, China, Afghanistan, Iraq, ect...It's part of what makes them so entertaining.

[GMDino]

(01-11-2017, 06:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I get the libs equating starting your elementary education with a affirmation of loyalty to your country to places such as NK, China, Afghanistan, Iraq, ect...It's part of what makes them so entertaining.

I think it's more about not forcing loyalty as we value freedom more here.

Not sure why that's a problem.

Although it reminds me of a bit George Carlin did on going to a progressive Catholic school as a child.  They could move their desks around and ask questions and had some freedom....and it created a generation of non-believers.

[*bfine32*]

(01-11-2017, 06:17 PM)GMDino Wrote: Eh, I'm against forcing loyalty on students.

But then I'm against forcing religion on them too.

I'd rather they just be educated so they can graduate and make the world a better place.

Well you and others are entitled to their opinion; however, we must obey the rules of our country. National pride has played a huge riole in how far this country has advanced in so little time.

If a federally funded school district votes to have children recite the pledge; I have no problem, as long as no reference to religion is made. Apparently others do have a problem with this and think a tradition that has been going on for about about half our Country's history is somehow going to change us into a Dictatorship. 

Not sure you can force loyalty on student; however, obedience is not always a bad thing. Of course I also think every able-bodied person should be required to serve their country in some fashion; however, saying 2 sentences as a kid is in the too hard to do block for some.  

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2017, 06:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I get the libs equating starting your elementary education with a affirmation of loyalty to your country to places such as NK, China, Afghanistan, Iraq, ect...It's part of what makes them so entertaining.

It's not an affirmation of loyalty, is the point.  If you do something under threat of penalty or otherwise, you aren't doing so because you are loyal, you are doing it to avoid unpleasant consequences.

Is this difficult to understand?  Hell, don't you know anything about kids?  Making them "loyal" to something may very well backfire.

(01-11-2017, 06:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well you and others are entitled to their opinion; however, we must obey the rules of our country. National pride has played a huge riole in how far this country has advanced in so little time.

If a federally funded school district votes to have children recite the pledge; I have no problem, as long as no reference to religion is made. Apparently others do have a problem with this and think a tradition that has been going on for about about half our Country's history is somehow going to change us into a Dictatorship. 

Not sure you can force loyalty on student; however, obedience is not always a bad thing. Of course I also think every able-bodied person should be required to serve their country in some fashion; however, saying 2 sentences as a kid is in the too hard to do block for some.  

My issue is that you seem to have the idea that pride is something people can be forced to have.  Is that even pride? 

[GMDino]

(01-11-2017, 06:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well you and others are entitled to their opinion; however, we must obey the rules of our country. National pride has played a huge riole in how far this country has advanced in so little time.

If a federally funded school district votes to have children recite the pledge; I have no problem, as long as no reference to religion is made. Apparently others do have a problem with this and think a tradition that has been going on for about about half our Country's history is somehow going to change us into a Dictatorship. 

Not sure you can force loyalty on student; however, obedience is not always a bad thing. Of course I also think every able-bodied person should be required to serve their country in some fashion; however, saying 2 sentences as a kid is in the too hard to do block for some.  

If the rules are that we must say the pledge every day I am guilty of breaking the rules.

I personally don't think it makes it a dictatorship...I think that a country that values its freedom so much should probably allow people to exercise it by not saying a pledge.

[*bfine32*]

(01-11-2017, 06:33 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's not an affirmation of loyalty, is the point.  If you do something under threat of penalty or otherwise, you aren't doing so because you are loyal, you are doing it to avoid unpleasant consequences.

Is this difficult to understand?  Hell, don't you know anything about kids?  Making them "loyal" to something may very well backfire.

Of course it's an affirmation of loyalty. Making loyalty optional could backfire as well; a great many things can backfire. "Is it difficult to understand?" 

Not really an expert on kids you'll have to talk to that AU guy. 

[Vas Deferens]

Let's send these shitty little 5 yo who don't want to stand up and recite the pledge to a loyalty conversion camp!

[*Nately120*]

(01-11-2017, 06:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course it's an affirmation of loyalty. Making loyalty optional could backfire as well; a great many things can backfire. "Is it difficult to understand?" 

I said the pledge every day in school for my entire education...so in your eyes I'm 100% loyal to this country, no questions asked?  Damn, I wish I thought of that when I had to undergo a 6 month background investigation to get a position of security with the government.  

Maybe that should be the only hurdle we place in front of people trying to get security sensitive positions.  Hello Mr. Akbar, I see you are from Iran and have ties with terrorist organizations, BUT you stood and said the Pledge of Allegiance when you were forced to do so SO I don't see any reason you can't be trusted!

Next! 

[BigPapaKain]

(01-11-2017, 06:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let me guess: 9th grader from Ohio. 

Let me guess; uneducated red neck who thinks patriotism should be mandatory.

If only those damned colonists had been true Patriots to their government.

[Yojimbo]

I'd prefer my country earned my loyalty by not spying on its citizens and starting wars to protect fossil fuel and military contractor's profits at the expense of brave soldiers and innocent civilian lives.

[Rotobeast]

(01-11-2017, 05:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How about 6,7,8.9.....?

At what age does a child understand and have the ability to develop a sense of loyalty to his or her country?

At what age do they truly understand sacrifice ?