More "largely peaceful" Portland protests

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-29-2020, 11:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: Ain't nothing insinuated sir.  You blamed it on "one race".  You can stand by it or not.  Not up to me.  I'm sure others will happily agree with you and defend it (and accuse me of something, I'm sure of that more) but I'll end our interaction here.  

I'm only responding to you because you're characteristically viewing his comment in the worst way possible and treating him very unfairly.  It appears, to me, that he is commenting on the crime rate within the black community.  As hard data, i.e. facts, show that ~54% of homicides in the United States are committed by people of black ethnicity.  The same data also shows that most homicides are intraracial.  Hence his comment is grounded in statistical fact.  Anyone who works or lives in a largely black community, which I'm guessing excludes you, knows this is a huge problem for those communities.  Alternatively, anyone who watches the news and is aware of the number of people shot and killed in Chicago on a weekly basis would be aware of this.

Consequently, one could, and IMO should unless their posting history would otherwise lend one to that conclusion, view his comments in that light instead of jumping immediately to calling someone a racist.  But you do you.

[hollodero]

(10-29-2020, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm only responding to you because you're characteristically viewing his comment in the worst way possible and treating him very unfairly.  It appears, to me, that he is commenting on the crime rate within the black community.  As hard data, i.e. facts, show that ~54% of homicides in the United States are committed by people of black ethnicity.  The same data also shows that most homicides are intraracial.

Apparently 90% of blacks are killed by blacks. With these data, it seems hard not to see the racial aspect. Mickey sure has a point worth making, and while there certainly can be differing viewpoints simply countering it with claiming he uses a racist dog whistle is bad style and uncalled for. That's just the kind of oversimplistic mallet response that is not constructive and costs the left a lot of sympathies, and imho rightfully so.

[GMDino]

(10-29-2020, 11:45 AM)hollodero Wrote: Apparently 90% of blacks are killed by blacks. With these data, it seems hard not to see the racial aspect. Mickey sure has a point worth making, and while there certainly can be differing viewpoints simply countering it with claiming he uses a racist dog whistle is bad style and uncalled for. That's just the kind of oversimplistic mallet response that is not constructive and costs the left a lot of sympathies, and imho rightfully so.

Not the first time it was said that the "inner city" and "one race" are causing all the problems.  A dramatic oversimplification with racial undertones.

People can call it whatever they want...it is not different than Trump's "warning" that "They" will come to the suburbs and destroy your lives.

80% of whites are killed by whites.

Clearly "one race" is the problem.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-data-racial-murder/fact-check-false-data-on-u-s-racial-murder-rates-idUSKCN24I2A9

[Vas Deferens]

(10-29-2020, 10:57 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Good to know.  I suppose I'd have more sympathy if they weren't protesting a completely justified shooting.

Debatable.  I don't know what I would do if I were those officers.  But I also don't have the perspective of many of those protestors.  

(10-29-2020, 11:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I think when both groups act under the same BLM umbrella their messages become merged.

How are the looters acting under the BLM umbrella?  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-29-2020, 11:45 AM)hollodero Wrote: Apparently 90% of blacks are killed by blacks. With these data, it seems hard not to see the racial aspect. Mickey sure has a point worth making, and while there certainly can be differing viewpoints simply countering it with claiming he uses a racist dog whistle is bad style and uncalled for. That's just the kind of oversimplistic mallet response that is not constructive and costs the left a lot of sympathies, and imho rightfully so.

Very true, and this is also why the problem continues unabated.  You can't even discuss it without a large group of people slapping you with the racism tag.  Unfortunately racism does not explain this massive indiscrepancy, or it's certainly not the only cause.  Hispanics are only slightly overrepresented in crime rates, as are Native Americans.  Asians are significantly underrepresented and whites are represented at a level commensurate to their population.  Only in the black community is there this enormous over representation.  This is obviously a serious problem, and black people, as you correctly point out, are the ones largely suffering due to this.  As the topic is forbidden by some it doesn't get seriously discussed and thus we will never make any serious headway in solving it.

(10-29-2020, 11:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Not the first time it was said that the "inner city" and "one race" are causing all the problems.  A dramatic oversimplification with racial undertones.

People can call it whatever they want...it is not different than Trump's "warning" that "They" will come to the suburbs and destroy your lives.

80% of whites are killed by whites.

Clearly "one race" is the problem.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-data-racial-murder/fact-check-false-data-on-u-s-racial-murder-rates-idUSKCN24I2A9

It is certainly false that whites are killed more often by blacks than other whites.  As I already stated, most crime is intraracial.  It is accurate to say that whites are killed by blacks at a far higher rate than blacks are killed by whites, but nothing close to the numbers in that article.  It is also factually accurate to state that blacks account for ~13% of the population but commit ~54% of the homicides in this nation.  It's people like you who are so quick to label a person racist for daring to discuss this obvious problem, that prevent it from being discussed and analyzed.  Which, of course, prevents any actual progress on solving the issue.

I already know you won't because you refused to do so with me when you stepped way over the line, but you owe Mickey an apology for baselessly calling him a racist.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-29-2020, 11:55 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Debatable.  I don't know what I would do if I were those officers.

You know I will call out a bad, or debatable shooting when they occur.  I've done so numerous times on this board.  This is not one of those.  This was a 100% justified shooting

Quote:But I also don't have the perspective of many of those protestors.  

I'm starting to dislike this statement, and I'm not directing this at you.  You can have a different perspective and still be objectively wrong.  My nephew has a different perspective on when he's told to go to bed or why he can't have a third donut, that doesn't mean his perspective is worthy of logical consideration.  Please note, and again this is not directed at you because I know you're not like this, I am not comparing these protestors to children, merely making an analogy on how simply having a different perspective doesn't mean it's one worthy of consideration or excuse.

[GMDino]

(10-29-2020, 11:55 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Debatable.  I don't know what I would do if I were those officers.  But I also don't have the perspective of many of those protestors.  


How are the looters acting under the BLM umbrella?  

They aren't...necessarily.  But as long as it can be implied it helps keeps the protesters from gaining more credibility towards a cause other don't believe in.

At least until that is pointed out to be false.

But people won't stand by their convictions and words.  They try to get out and around them by accusing others.

[hollodero]

(10-29-2020, 11:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Not the first time it was said that the "inner city" and "one race" are causing all the problems.  A dramatic oversimplification with racial undertones.

People can call it whatever they want...it is not different than Trump's "warning" that "They" will come to the suburbs and destroy your lives.

If you really can see no difference between the two statements, if you honestly feel that Mickey said something equally appalling as warning "they come to get you", then you're creating taboos that make stating facts a racist deed, and that can't be the way to lead a debate. In fact, he said nothing of that kind (for starters, he talked about blacks killing blacks, not about blacks coming for you) and if you fail to see that, that's on you.

If homicide rates are that high as in the US, and around 50% of homicides are committed by blacks, and 90% of black murder victims are committed by blacks, it does seem quite reasonable to see an issue there that to some extent includes race. Demanding that be politely denied is absurd, and you'd have to treat me the same and call me a racist as well now for stating these numbers and takes, just like you called Mickey one. I await your meme.

(10-29-2020, 11:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: 80% of whites are killed by whites.

Clearly "one race" is the problem.

This 80% number was not disputed. But around 50% of homicides are committed by a 14% minority, and these numbers should go undisputed as well. That's the issue.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-29-2020, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You know I will call out a bad, or debatable shooting when they occur.  I've done so numerous times on this board.  This is not one of those.  This was a 100% justified shooting


I'm starting to dislike this statement, and I'm not directing this at you.  You can have a different perspective and still be objectively wrong.  My nephew has a different perspective on when he's told to go to bed or why he can't have a third donut, that doesn't mean his perspective is worthy of logical consideration.  Please note, and again this is not directed at you because I know you're not like this, I am not comparing these protestors to children, merely making an analogy on how simply having a different perspective doesn't mean it's one worthy of consideration or excuse.

As another example, the Klu Klux Klan has a perspective on race relations. Anyone think their perspective is worth more than dog shit mixed with cat shit mixed with my shit?

[GMDino]

(10-29-2020, 12:10 PM)hollodero Wrote: If you really can see no difference between the two statements, if you honestly feel that Mickey said something equally appalling as warning "they come to get you", then you're creating taboos that make stating facts a racist deed, and that can't be the way to lead a debate. In fact, he said nothing of that kind (for starters, he talked about blacks killing blacks, not about blacks coming for you) and if you fail to see that, that's on you.

If homicide rates are that high as in the US, and around 50% of homicides are committed by blacks, and 90% of black murder victims are committed by blacks, it does seem quite reasonable to see an issue there that to some extent includes race. Demanding that be politely denied is absurd, and you'd have to treat me the same and call me a racist as well now for stating these numbers and takes, just like you called Mickey one. I await your meme.

80% of whites are killed by whites.  And using your numbers around 50% are committed by whites.

White people live in the inner city too.

Wanna have a real conversation about violence and killing?  I'm all for it.  But there is no "debate" if one side is blaming "one race".

Again, he can claim to mean whatever he likes.  Twice he did this.  Twice I commented on it.

This time folks think I went too far...so be it.

I'll stand by my words if others will not stand by theirs.

[hollodero]

(10-29-2020, 12:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: 80% of whites are killed by whites.  And using your numbers around 50% are committed by whites.

White people live in the inner city too.

Wanna have a real conversation about violence and killing?  I'm all for it.  But there is no "debate" if one side is blaming "one race".

Again, he can claim to mean whatever he likes.  Twice he did this.  Twice I commented on it.

This time folks think I went too far...so be it.

I'll stand by my words if others will not stand by theirs.

As edited in before: This 80% number was not disputed. But around 50% of homicides are committed by a 14% minority, and these numbers should go undisputed as well. That's the issue. Which of course means that whites are far less likely to fall victim to homicide, and also far less likely to commit homicide. That's just the naked truth and no one should be called a racist for referring to that truth.

And the issue is NOT that black people are inherently more akin to killing. Imho, it is to large parts an issue of lacking opportunities to escape a dire life situation that contains much crime and violence, due to much desperation and hopelessness. I for one see it as mainly an economic issue, and it's a racial issue for one race is particularly affected by this most likely systemic lack of perspective and opportunity. But that does not mean that the numbers go away, or that the statement about intraracial homicides amongst black people has to be treated as a non-issue that should not be brought up. Such taboos that get defended with the racist war hammer don't help.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-29-2020, 11:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: Ain't nothing insinuated sir.  You blamed it on "one race".  You can stand by it or not.  Not up to me.  I'm sure others will happily agree with you and defend it (and accuse me of something, I'm sure of that more) but I'll end our interaction here.  

Facts are facts bro and they don't care about your feelings nor do they make me a racisit.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-29-2020, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm only responding to you because you're characteristically viewing his comment in the worst way possible and treating him very unfairly.  It appears, to me, that he is commenting on the crime rate within the black community.  As hard data, i.e. facts, show that ~54% of homicides in the United States are committed by people of black ethnicity.  The same data also shows that most homicides are intraracial.  Hence his comment is grounded in statistical fact.  Anyone who works or lives in a largely black community, which I'm guessing excludes you, knows this is a huge problem for those communities.  Alternatively, anyone who watches the news and is aware of the number of people shot and killed in Chicago on a weekly basis would be aware of this.

Consequently, one could, and IMO should unless their posting history would otherwise lend one to that conclusion, view his comments in that light instead of jumping immediately to calling someone a racist.  But you do you.

Thank you!  exactly.  

[*bfine32*]

(10-29-2020, 11:55 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: How are the looters acting under the BLM umbrella?  

https://abcnews.go.com/US/van-full-explosives-found-philadelphia-week-social-unrest/story?id=73897826

Quote:What started out as a peaceful protest of about 1,000 people at Malcolm X Park on Tuesday night ended up turning into violent activity against the police where at least 23 officer were left injured and, according to information gathered by WPVI, authorities say that they had bricks and even blood thrown at them.

When the Riots evolve from the peaceful protests they are under the same umbrella. This has been discussed on here before.

GMDino Wrote:They aren't...necessarily.  But as long as it can be implied it helps keeps the protesters from gaining more credibility towards a cause other don't believe in.

At least until that is pointed out to be false.

But people won't stand by their convictions and words.  They try to get out and around them by accusing others.

No idea why you're allowed to continue here.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-29-2020, 11:48 AM)GMDino Wrote: Not the first time it was said that the "inner city" and "one race" are causing all the problems.  A dramatic oversimplification with racial undertones.

People can call it whatever they want...it is not different than Trump's "warning" that "They" will come to the suburbs and destroy your lives.

80% of whites are killed by whites.

Clearly "one race" is the problem.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-data-racial-murder/fact-check-false-data-on-u-s-racial-murder-rates-idUSKCN24I2A9 

No kidding, because that is where these problems are happening and a supermajority of one race that is doing it.

That 80% is disingenuous to this discussion.  There are lots of other factors.

[Belsnickel]

(10-29-2020, 12:56 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: No kidding, because that is where these problems are happening and a supermajority of one race that is doing it.

That 80% is disingenuous to this discussion.  There are lots of other factors.

Using race at all is disingenuous. The stronger correlation to violence is socioeconomic inequality.

[fredtoast]

(10-29-2020, 11:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm only responding to you because you're characteristically viewing his comment in the worst way possible and treating him very unfairly.  It appears, to me, that he is commenting on the crime rate within the black community.  As hard data, i.e. facts, show that ~54% of homicides in the United States are committed by people of black ethnicity.  The same data also shows that most homicides are intraracial.  Hence his comment is grounded in statistical fact.  Anyone who works or lives in a largely black community, which I'm guessing excludes you, knows this is a huge problem for those communities.  Alternatively, anyone who watches the news and is aware of the number of people shot and killed in Chicago on a weekly basis would be aware of this.

Consequently, one could, and IMO should unless their posting history would otherwise lend one to that conclusion, view his comments in that light instead of jumping immediately to calling someone a racist.  But you do you.

White guys who always bring up the high crime rate among minorities never mention that 90% of murders in the United Sates are committed by men yet they make up less than half of the population.

So gender is a much stronger indicator of violent criminal behavior than race.  Yet none of these guys ever say that we are all justified in treating men as potential violent criminals or that police should naturally profile people based on their gender.

If special steps need to be taken to address the high crime rate among certain races then what steps should be taken to address the high crime rate among certain genders?

[Mickeypoo]

(10-29-2020, 01:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Using race at all is disingenuous. The stronger correlation to violence is socioeconomic inequality.

Fair point, but I think it is both.

[*bfine32*]

(10-29-2020, 01:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Using race at all is disingenuous. The stronger correlation to violence is socioeconomic inequality.

So you're opposed the Black Lives Matter?

[Belsnickel]

(10-29-2020, 01:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you're opposed the Black Lives Matter?

That is one hell of a red herring.