Out of All the Irresponsible Actions...

[Dill]

(11-10-2020, 01:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm honestly trying with you, but if you expect me to respond to that absolute mess of posts you're going to be disappointed.  No, it has nothing to do with being incapable and everything to do with them being an overly long, disjointed mess.  Although I doubt you'll take me at my word in this regard.

If you are referring to my posts, then no, I don't take you at your word. They are quite systematic. The are long because they gather in the centrifugal and off-issue charges to address them too. 

The first re-explains that I am acknowledging the diversity of the Trump base.  You ask for proof of my claims about Evangelical support, and I gave it. I also linked to some of the many threads on which I have discussed this issue before, so you can see my "posting history" and don't have to "take my word." 

The second addresses your charge that I present one side as absolutely right.  I dispute that and re-state that the focus of this issue/dispute should be first and foremost on the factual record and what can be said about that. Start with yes/no answers to true/false questions.

The third post continues in that vein, with three, sequentially stated points. 

so it should be easy. Just refute my factual premises, without recording your impressions, and my argument is done.

1. Do Trump and Right Wing Media spread conspiracy theories?  Yes or no?

2. Do millions of his followers believe and act on those conspiracy theories? Yes or no?

3. Can 1 and 2 have very negative implications for democracy; can they actually determine the outcome of national elections? yes or no.

4. Does Trump have massive support among Evangelicals? Yes or no?

5. Do Evangelical leaders present Trump as chosen by God and do a sizable number of their followers believe this? Yes or no? 

[Dill]

(11-10-2020, 01:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm honestly trying with you, but if you expect me to respond to that absolute mess of posts you're going to be disappointed.  No, it has nothing to do with being incapable and everything to do with them being an overly long, disjointed mess.  Although I doubt you'll take me at my word in this regard.

If you are referring to my posts, then no, I don't take you at your word. They are quite systematic. The are long because they gather in the centrifugal and off-issue charges to address them too. 

The first re-explains that I am acknowledging the diversity of the Trump base.  You ask for proof of my claims about Evangelical support, and I gave it. I also linked to some of the many threads on which I have discussed this issue before, so you can see my "posting history" and don't have to "take my word." 

The second addresses your charge that I present one side as absolutely right.  I dispute that and re-state that the focus of this issue/dispute should be first and foremost on the factual record and what can be said about that. Start with yes/no answers to true/false questions.

The third post continues in that vein, with three, sequentially stated points. 

so it should be easy. Just refute my factual premises, without recording your impressions, and my argument is done.

1. Do Trump and Right Wing Media spread conspiracy theories?  Yes or no?

2. Do millions of his followers believe and act on those conspiracy theories? Yes or no?

3. Can 1 and 2 have very negative implications for democracy; can they actually determine the outcome of national elections? yes or no.

4. Does Trump have massive support among Evangelicals? Yes or no?

5. Do Evangelical leaders present Trump as chosen by God and do a sizable number of their followers believe this? Yes or no? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2020, 05:20 PM)Dill Wrote: 1. Do Trump and Right Wing Media spread conspiracy theories?  Yes or no?

You'll forgive me for cutting out all the condescension and just addressing the questions.  Does Trump spread conspiracy theories, yes.  You'll have to actually define the "right wing media" for me to be able to answer the rest of this.

Quote:2. Do millions of his followers believe and act on those conspiracy theories? Yes or no?

Answering this question as written, no.  That's going to happen a lot when you ask two questions at once with potentially different answers.  Lawyers in court pull that tactic all the time.

Quote:3. Can 1 and 2 have very negative implications for democracy; can they actually determine the outcome of national elections? yes or no.

Again as written, no.

Quote:4. Does Trump have massive support among Evangelicals? Yes or no?

Yes.

Quote:5. Do Evangelical leaders present Trump as chosen by God and do a sizable number of their followers believe this? Yes or no? 

Answering the question as written, no.

[*Nately120*]

Side note, how long do we expect this to take? If the Gore/Bush decision over one state wasn't final until the middle of December, how long do we expect the SC to take to deciding the outcome of 3 or 4 states?

[fredtoast]

(11-10-2020, 01:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm honestly trying with you, but if you expect me to respond to that absolute mess of posts you're going to be disappointed.  No, it has nothing to do with being incapable and everything to do with them being an overly long, disjointed mess.  Although I doubt you'll take me at my word in this regard.

Maybe this will help.  .  .

In all your replies you did not state one fact or source to back up anything you said or refute anything Dill said.  All you did was state your opinion and act like it was fact.

[GMDino]

(11-10-2020, 06:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Side note, how long do we expect this to take?  If the Gore/Bush decision over one state wasn't final until the middle of December, how long do we expect the SC to take to deciding the outcome of 3 or 4 states?

Depends on the courts.  Also Trump is much more of a regular litigant and always believes he can win despite all his losses.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2020, 06:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe this will help.  .  .

In all your replies you did not state one fact or source to back up anything you said or refute anything Dill said.  All you did was state your opinion and act like it was fact.

No, I stated my opinion as opinion.

[fredtoast]

(11-10-2020, 05:21 PM)Dill Wrote: 5. Do Evangelical leaders present Trump as chosen by God and do a sizable number of their followers believe this? Yes or no? 

(11-10-2020, 05:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Answering the question as written, no.

Link to your source?

This is what I found

https://bigthink.com/culture-religion/was-trump-anointed-by-god?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

Half of evangelicals believe Trump is anointed by God

[hollodero]

(11-10-2020, 05:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You'll forgive me for cutting out all the condescension and just addressing the questions.  Does Trump spread conspiracy theories, yes.  You'll have to actually define the "right wing media" for me to be able to answer the rest of this.

Without touching the other subjects too much, for this question I'd suggest the FOX news prime time slots and all media further right, like Daily Caller and Breitbart and whatever else. But mainly, the FOX shows. For imho, they spread conspiracies on a rather huge scale.

...and many supporters believe them, without any lawyering tricks that's just reasonably true. Though maybe the internet plays a bigger role in that than the classical media networks.

[Dill]

(11-10-2020, 05:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You'll forgive me for cutting out all the condescension and just addressing the questions.  Does Trump spread conspiracy theories, yes. 

You'll have to actually define the "right wing media" for me to be able to answer the rest of this.

Good. Condescension drama gone. Focus on the questions, and factual record.

You agree Trump spreads conspiracy theories. One point secured. 

You are not sure what I mean by "right wing media." I mean first of all Fox News, but include the Sinclair Broadcast Group and One American News Network, and the Christian Broadcasting Network, plus other news websites like World Net Daily and Breitbart and the news aggregator Drudge Report (though Matt seems to have turned on Trump). Newspapers like the Washington Times and New York Post fit in as well, and publishers like Regnery, and think Tanks like the Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise institutes, One could throw in magazines and journals like The Federalist, Commentary and The National Review  among others. Add to this a number of opinion forums and blogs like The Mental Recession, Jihad Watch, Power Line, The Gateway Pundit, and Red State, among many. (White nationalist websites count here too, like Storm Front) The latter are among the primary vectors of rumor and conspiracy theories.  I mention that "neutral" sites like Facebook and Twitter, though not Right Wing organizations, are nevertheless also massive vectors of disinformation moved through the net by millions of individual rightists.

These organizations collectively form a network through which political disinformation can move with much less resistance than the MSM, though some nodes provide more of that resistance than others. Foreign actors like Russia utilize this network extensively, directing bot armies which introduce disinformation to be "shared' by millions who distrust the liberal media. There is nothing like this on "the other side." A shout out here to my man Hannity, who forms the capstone of this network as I see it. THE MASTER of projection.



Hoping we can consider the reference of "Right Wing Media" settled, so I can move on to the question of whether millions of Trump followers believe and act on the Trump conspiracies they move through this network. Like they watch Hannity and listen to Rush religiously every day, to the exclusion of responsible media, but don't really buy in.

[Dill]

Next set of questions.

(11-10-2020, 05:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:2. Do millions of his followers believe and act on those conspiracy theories? Yes or no?

Answering this question as written, no.  That's going to happen a lot when you ask two questions at once with potentially different answers.  Lawyers in court pull that tactic all the time.

One can manage this "lawyer trick" by answering each question separately--with a different answer if need be.

The qualifier "as written" is not accompanied by any suggestion of how such a question might be productively written for you, of what might count as evidence that millions of followers believe and act on Trump conspiracy theories.  

Would you consider polls reliable evidence, of which there are many like these?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/22/qanon-poll-finds-half-trump-supporters-believe-baseless-claims/3725567001/
https://www.axios.com/poll-qanon-americans-belief-growing-2a2d2a55-38a7-4b2a-a1b6-2685a956feef.html

Rather than just responding "no," do offer some suggestion as to why this evidence should be disqualified and what could/should count for proof. 

As to the question of whether Trump supporters act on rumors, the term "act" does not here just refer to things like storming a pizza parlor with a shotgun to free Hillary's child sex traffic victims or coming armed to mass protests of Biden "election fraud."  It also refers to actions like passing on the conspiracy theory to friends and voting on the basis of what is "known" about Hillary's pedophilia or Biden's extensive international corruption. 

When I get your answers as to whether I have established that millions of Trump followers believe and act on his conspiracy theories, or what would count as proof--or disproof-- of such, I will move on to the remaining questions.

[Dill]

(11-10-2020, 09:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Link to your source?
This is what I found
https://bigthink.com/culture-religion/was-trump-anointed-by-god?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1
Half of evangelicals believe Trump is anointed by God

Fred, I don't buy this undercount. Or at least it needs some qualification/re-framing.

There are about 90 million Evangelicals in the US. About 20% of Evangelicals do not support Trump--mostly Black and women. (I started a thread on this issue once on the old forum.)

If one limits the pool to white evangelicals who support Trump, the number who think him anointed/chosen by God will I'm sure be closer to 80%.  Or more. That could be as many as 40-50 million people/voters. Quite enough to determine an election.

My primary ground for saying this is the number of Evangelical leaders, especially televangelists and hosts of CBN shows who openly endorse and discuss this, and urge followers to get out and vote because in doing so they are directly furthering God's plan. Many believe they are part of an Army of God's minions, which includes angels (some summoned from Africa and South America to help), who are swarming America to insure Satan does not win this election.

This is a subculture, largely quiet and almost invisible, which many Americans are wholly unfamiliar with, in which the Bible and the US Constitution are interwoven into one document based, biblical worldview with its own iconography. But it can be "activated" for political ends. Some of Trump's more baffling behavior, like the holding the Bible up before St. John's Church during the DC protests, make great sense within this iconography.
 

In the "laying on of hands" pictured here*, notice the two most prominent connections to Trump are our greatest presidents, Washington and Lincoln. MLK and Robert E. Lee mingle in the background--all on the same side now. And that is definitely Billy Graham, not John Wayne in the upper right quadrant. Some old keys, an old paper, and some book on the table before Trump.  Wonder what they're supposed to represent?

*Modelled on photographs of those "laying ons" which frequently occurred in the Trump White House.

[Belsnickel]

(11-11-2020, 11:28 AM)Dill Wrote: Fred, I don't buy this undercount. Or at least it needs some qualification/re-framing.

There are about 90 million Evangelicals in the US. About 20% of Evangelicals do not support Trump--mostly Black and women. (I started a thread on this issue once on the old forum.)

If one limits the pool to white evangelicals who support Trump, the number who think him anointed/chosen by God will I'm sure be closer to 80%.  Or more. That could be as many as 40-50 million people/voters. Quite enough to determine an election.

My primary ground for saying this is the number of Evangelical leaders, especially televangelists and hosts of CBN shows who openly endorse and discuss this, and urge followers to get out and vote because in doing so they are directly furthering God's plan. Many believe they are part of an Army of God's minions, which includes angels (some summoned from Africa and South America to help), who are swarming America to insure Satan does not win this election.

This is a subculture, largely quiet and almost invisible, which many Americans are wholly unfamiliar with, in which the Bible and the US Constitution are interwoven into one document based, biblical worldview with its own iconography. But it can be "activated" for political ends. Some of Trump's more baffling behavior, like the holding the Bible up before St. John's Church during the DC protests, make great sense within this iconography.
 

In the "laying on of hands" pictured here*, notice the two most prominent connections to Trump are our greatest presidents, Washington and Lincoln. MLK and Robert E. Lee mingle in the background--all on the same side now. And that is definitely Billy Graham, not John Wayne in the upper right quadrant. Some old keys, an old paper, and some book on the table before Trump.  Wonder what they're supposed to represent?

*Modelled on photographs of those "laying ons" which frequently occurred in the Trump White House.

This made me vomit in my mouth a little bit.