Out of All the Irresponsible Actions...

[*Nately120*]

(11-09-2020, 12:28 PM)Dill Wrote: Trumpism isn't over and adult news needs to hold the line.

True, I just think it's going to end up as a splinter group rather than the pseudo-republican version of government.  2016 showed us that liberals alone can't stop Trump, so lots of independents and a significant number of republicans said "no thanks" to 4 more years of Trump.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2020, 12:01 PM)hollodero Wrote: Civility is a thin layer with people. This has little to do with political affiliation. When it comes to Trump, it sure helps that losing the layer of civility often was actively encouraged by the man himself. Which happened on a scale that did not happen on the other side.

When it comes to reacting to Trump, it is a tough ask to keep up civility against a deeply uncivil person like Trump, or many supporters for that matter. In a sense, I guess civility is one of those social contract things, like respect and all that. You get it when you give it. When someone isn't civil, people will respond in kind and that does not automatically mean the blame is equally distributed and it's just everyone that is inherently uncivil.

CNN example, I don't know what they are supposed to do when Trump says uncivil things, or moronic ones, or false ones, or actually dangerous ones like claiming voter fraud by the millions without a shred of evidence. At some point, I feel calling things what they are might trump the urge for being "civil" and not saying anything impolite, no matter how warranted it might be. I get they (and also many Democrats and liberal commentators etc.) take it too far sometimes, meaning I agree with that. But accusing them of inciting violence by not reporting in a way Trump could more easily stomach (or helps him "keep his ego intact", which would effectively mean they'd have to call him great and beautiful), that imho takes it a notch too far.

Very well stated and I don't find anything in there that I disagree with.  I just find it odd that people would behave in a way that encourages a response they purport to fear or at the very least find extremely undesirable.  It certainly takes a large dose of maturity and patience to deal with someone who completely lacks both of those qualities, to be sure.  But if you're worried about a mercurial and thin skinned person doing something rash the absolute last thing you would want to do is needle them.

I guess my main point is the same it's always been, be responsible for your own behavior.  Be consistent in what you state you want and act accordingly.  We're certainly not seeing either of those things here.

[hollodero]

(11-09-2020, 12:28 PM)PhilHos Wrote: AOC is the most prominent name though there are others. One even started the "Trump Accountability Project". The goal is to hold them "responsible" for supporting/enabling Trump. So I guess it could be to investigate and/or "lock em up".

You do agree, though, that this is reprehensible and should NOT be something people engage in. Right? Just like it was wrong for Trump to even suggest locking up his political opposition, it's also wrong for AOC and Democrats, right?

I agree in general, this was a bad move by AOC and such. I mean, in a sense she said what many will be thinking: That when you were closely associated with team Trump and/or defended just about everything he said, it will be tough to move on from that.

I have to say though, this whole notion of "lock them up" is rather your personal interpretation. You're starting to scold them for things not actually said and imho not even implied.

[*Nately120*]

(11-09-2020, 12:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Very well stated and I don't find anything in there that I disagree with.  I just find it odd that people would behave in a way that encourages a response they purport to fear or at the very least find extremely undesirable.  It certainly takes a large dose of maturity and patience to deal with someone who completely lacks both of those qualities, to be sure.  But if you're worried about a mercurial and thin skinned person doing something rash the absolute last thing you would want to do is needle them. I guess my main point is the same it's always been, be responsible for your own behavior.  Be consistent in what you state you want and act accordingly.  We're certainly not seeing either of those things here.

I hear ya overall, but what doesn't needle a thin-skinned person?  I've known a few in real life and no matter what you do or say or don't say they're going to get upset and offended...that's the nature of having thin skin.

Unless this country is willing to simply overturn our electoral process and make Trump the president, he's not going to be happy.  And even if we did make him the president he'd likely go on an even bigger revenge tour than he's planning for the next 70 days.  We don't negotiate with terrorists.

[Dill]

(11-09-2020, 12:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Biden talks a good game, but the main thing is that Biden won but a bunch of democrats didn't win senate seats during this "blue wave."  The republican party has made it known via the vote that they are moving on from Trump but not going all-in on democrats.  For this reason I can see the ultra-Trumpers finding themselves on the outside of their own party if they keep rallying around a guy Americans united against.

And if Trump keeps this stuff up it's going to become more and more tempting for republicans as a party to distance themselves from him and the Trump-only types can join up with Qanon and go all-in on the alternate reality theories.  It's easy to pull the "he wasn't a real republican" stuff.  He wasn't a real Christian, he didn't actually support pro-life initiatives, etc.

Or maybe Trump runs in 2024 and the republicans all go back to kissing his fancy schmancy shoes.

Good points there.

If Biden/Harris can keep their cool. We should see a few more Senators drifting away from the Regime party behavior, as Trump's power to discipline erodes and concentrates in those susceptible to conspiracy theories.

The warnings of Rubio and Cruz and Never-Trumpers regarding the long term effects of Trump on the party are being realized now.

[Belsnickel]

(11-09-2020, 12:38 PM)Dill Wrote: Good points there.

If Biden/Harris can keep their cool. We should see a few more Senators drifting away from the Regime party behavior, as Trump's power to discipline erodes and concentrates in those susceptible to conspiracy theories.

The warnings of Rubio and Cruz and Never-Trumpers regarding the long term effects of Trump on the party are being realized now.

I saw someone comment about this, and I am surprised I didn't think about it. The officials we see from the GOP that are standing with Trump, still, likely know Trump lost. They don't agree with him. But they are putting on a show for his base for 2024. Some of these people plan to keep Trumpism alive.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2020, 12:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya overall, but what doesn't needle a thin-skinned person?  I've known a few in real life and no matter what you do or say or don't say they're going to get upset and offended...that's the nature of having thin skin.

Unless this country is willing to simply overturn our electoral process and make Trump the president, he's not going to be happy.  And even if we did make him the president he'd likely go on an even bigger revenge tour than he's planning for the next 70 days.  We don't negotiate with terrorists.

I'm certainly not talking about making him happy.  Just let him blow a gasket and sit back and quietly watch.  He'll throw a fit enough to be able to claim he fought the good fight but the system was rigged against him, and then he'll leave.  The constant needling in the press will not achieve this and will in fact deliver the opposite.  I've repeated this quote from John Stewart many times and it's more relevant than ever, Trump made it person with the media and they responded in kind.  It's not a good look for either group.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2020, 12:35 PM)hollodero Wrote: I agree in general, this was a bad move by AOC and such. I mean, in a sense she said what many will be thinking: That when you were closely associated with team Trump and/or defended just about everything he said, it will be tough to move on from that.

I have to say though, this whole notion of "lock them up" is rather your personal interpretation. You're starting to scold them for things not actually said and imho not even implied.

Doesn't matter. It was not illegal to support Trump. There is absolutely NOTHING for which to hold them accountable, be it locking them up or just publicly "shaming" them. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2020, 12:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I saw someone comment about this, and I am surprised I didn't think about it. The officials we see from the GOP that are standing with Trump, still, likely know Trump lost. They don't agree with him. But they are putting on a show for his base for 2024. Some of these people plan to keep Trumpism alive.

Or they just plan on getting the votes of those people.

[*Nately120*]

(11-09-2020, 12:38 PM)Dill Wrote: Good points there.

If Biden/Harris can keep their cool. We should see a few more Senators drifting away from the Regime party behavior, as Trump's power to discipline erodes and concentrates in those susceptible to conspiracy theories.

The warnings of Rubio and Cruz and Never-Trumpers regarding the long term effects of Trump on the party are being realized now.

I think Biden can keep his cool, that's why one of Trump's responses to Biden saying the right stuff and having the right responses was that he was "just being a politician."  It reminds me of people calling our Reagan's charisma and debating slam-dunks as him "just being an actor."  It's just a weak retort, in my opinion.  Different people are good at different things and you dance with who you brought to the dance, or something.

Biden has said and done some dumb stuff, but 50 years of opportunity to do so, ehh...I'll take it.  Bar low, but he talks a good game.

[Dill]

(11-09-2020, 12:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote:
I hear ya overall, but what doesn't needle a thin-skinned person?  I've known a few in real life and no matter what you do or say or don't say they're going to get upset and offended...that's the nature of having thin skin.

Unless this country is willing to simply overturn our electoral process and make Trump the president, he's not going to be happy.  And even if we did make him the president he'd likely go on an even bigger revenge tour than he's planning for the next 70 days.  We don't negotiate with terrorists.

Trump is thin-skinned, but I don't think it's just that.

It's also that Cohn-style MO--attack, accuse them of what you do first. Loudly and repeatedly.

He was doing that before president. He was doing it in 2016 when he claimed the Iowa primary was rigged against him.

But he is not the problem; the problem is still the high number of people who buy in. 

Their credulity, cultivated for decades now, is his power.

[Belsnickel]

(11-09-2020, 12:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Or they just plan on getting the votes of those people.

They would need to keep Trumpism alive to rely on that, though. Trump's base isn't the same GOP base they have traditionally held. It's a different breed and they were attracted to Trump.

As a candidate. Get your mind out of the gutter.

[*Nately120*]

(11-09-2020, 12:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm certainly not talking about making him happy.  Just let him blow a gasket and sit back and quietly watch.  He'll throw a fit enough to be able to claim he fought the good fight but the system was rigged against him, and then he'll leave.  The constant needling in the press will not achieve this and will in fact deliver the opposite.  I've repeated this quote from John Stewart many times and it's more relevant than ever, Trump made it person with the media and they responded in kind.  It's not a good look for either group.

In a way I know it is what Trump wants, he NEEDS the media to be "against him" but at the same time when the president claims victory in an election that isn't over and then claims the entire election is fixed the media has to say something, don't they?  Is it really needling him to point out that at the time there is no evidence to back up his claims?

Again, I get what you are saying but it just seems different to have to go down the path of letting the raving nutbag scream himself to sleep when he's the president.  We've just taken crazy to the next level now.

[hollodero]

(11-09-2020, 12:41 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Doesn't matter. It was not illegal to support Trump. There is absolutely NOTHING for which to hold them accountable, be it locking them up or just publicly "shaming" them. 

I somewhat disagree. Of course no one should get jailed or get any legal trouble, no one even implied any illegality, I don't feel like even following up on that any further. But people should have no problem to be held accountable for things they have said, done and stated in the recent past. That, imho, falls under personal responsibility, to be able to deal with that.

Again, I am not defending AOC, and in no way do I encourage publicly shaming people for their stances; I just think you overdo it with your reaction to it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2020, 12:44 PM)Dill Wrote: Trump is thin-skinned, but I don't think it's just that.

It's also that Cohn-style MO--attack, accuse them of what you do first. Loudly and repeatedly.

He was doing that before president. He was doing it in 2016 when he claimed the Iowa primary was rigged against him.

But he is not the problem; the problem is still the high number of people who buy in. 

Their credulity, cultivated for decades now, is his power.

I think here is where you go of the rails a bit.  People don't support Trump because they're credulous.  This comes off as incredibly condescending.  They support him because they oppose what he opposes (in theory) and they both repudiate the worst excesses of the Democrats.  Couple that with him having an odd sort of charisma (at least in 2016) and a desire to move outside the current system of power and you have a recipe for some rather staunch loyalty.  Trump supporters aren't middle of the road types, they're going to find much of the Dem platform utterly unpalatable.  If they see Trump as the best bulwark against that agenda they will stick with him.  If he ceases to be that they will move on.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2020, 12:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: I somewhat disagree. Of course no one should get jailed or get any legal trouble, no one even implied any illegality, I don't feel like even following up on that any further. But people should have no problem to be held accountable for things they have said, done and stated in the recent past. That, imho, falls under personal responsibility, to be able to deal with that.

Again, I am not defending AOC, and in no way do I encourage publicly shaming people for their stances; I just think you overdo it with your reaction to it.

I hope you're correct, unfortunately I think Phil is probably closer to the mark.  I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2020, 12:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: I somewhat disagree. Of course no one should get jailed or get any legal trouble, no one even implied any illegality, I don't feel like even following up on that any further. But people should have no problem to be held accountable for things they have said, done and stated in the recent past. That, imho, falls under personal responsibility, to be able to deal with that.

Yes, if what they said or did was something bad. Just because you disagreed with, disliked, and/or outright hated Trump doesn't mean that those who supported him deserve public humiliation. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2020, 12:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: In a way I know it is what Trump wants, he NEEDS the media to be "against him" but at the same time when the president claims victory in an election that isn't over and then claims the entire election is fixed the media has to say something, don't they?  Is it really needling him to point out that at the time there is no evidence to back up his claims?

Again, I get what you are saying but it just seems different to have to go down the path of letting the raving nutbag scream himself to sleep when he's the president.  We've just taken crazy to the next level now.

Wouldn't it be even more important to do when the "raving nutbag" is the POTUS?

[*Nately120*]

(11-09-2020, 12:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Wouldn't it be even more important to do when the "raving nutbag" is the POTUS?

Maybe...aren't we sort of entering into new territory here?  There is no general rule for how a nation is supposed to react when the president is throwing a tantrum and stomping his feet about how unfair it is that he was cheated, is there?

Personally, I've ignored plenty of people who rant and rave about how our elections are completely rigged and our government is a corrupt farce, I mean haven't we all?  It's just not something you usually hear from the president.

Go to any NFL message board while their team is losing and you'll hear cries that the NFL is rigged and the refs are calling the game against them, but if Roger Goddell goes on TV and announces the NFL is rigged you have a whole new situation even though the message is the same.

[hollodero]

(11-09-2020, 12:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think here is where you go of the rails a bit.  People don't support Trump because they're credulous.  This comes off as incredibly condescending.  They support him because they oppose what he opposes (in theory) and they both repudiate the worst excesses of the Democrats.

Imho, these two statements in no way exclude each other. Of course many Trump supporters aren't credulous, these are those that do not believe everything he says and see his apparent flaws while still supporting certain policies or SC judges, or dislike the alternative even more, or whatever. 
But there is a big portion who just are incredibly credulous, up to just believing everything he or the friendly media says, who just parrot every asinine conspiracy theory without applying any critical thinking. It is not condescending to state the obvious, and this, imho, is hard to explain away, even more so when all kinds of QAnons are creeping up on the party ballots. As is that these are not just a few individuals, but quite a power block.

(11-09-2020, 12:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm certainly not talking about making him happy.  Just let him blow a gasket and sit back and quietly watch.

Quietly sitting back is a tough demand to make for a 24/7 news station.

At some point, I'd even argue they have an obligation to address it. For one, this can not just be about Trump and his sensitivities. There are millions of people that are not Trump that have a right to be informed, and have a right to be informed that all Trump claims of voter fraud and whatnot are made up and without any evidence that support them.

Also, if CNN just sat quietly by, many people would interpret it as fake news, suppression, shamefully not reporting on a huge story...