Player gets booed for upholding personal convictions

[Belsnickel]

(06-07-2018, 06:40 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes you can. Gay people have always had the ability to get married ... as long as it was to someone from the opposite sex.  If you believe that, then you believe that opposing gay marriage is not denying people equal rights but rather denying people special or unique rights. I get your point and I know you disagree with that argument, but that doesn't mean it's any less valid or less logical.

You aren't wrong that is a valid argument. It was the argument used against Loving regarding interracial marriage as well. Our legal system just doesn't buy it.

[Dill]

(06-07-2018, 06:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said: Beliefs cannot discriminate, but your belief that she supports discrimination because she refused to wear a jersey and mentioned it in a notoriously anti-gay venue, is nothing more than your belief. This is what she said  “I just felt so convicted in my spirit that it wasn’t my job to wear this jersey,”. That leaves the "open-minded" to demonize her, consider her a bigot, and someone who discriminates.

You questions at the end have already been answered. I do not think she was discriminating against anyone by providing comments on her beliefs. She has done nothing to show that she has hate and intolerance (a bigot) toward anyone different than her. Some have in this very thread though. 

Wait--it's just my "belief" that she refused to wear a gay-themed jersey because it was gay-themed? And it is only my "belief" that she claimed to be "conflicted in spirit" because she was asked to wear a gay-themed jersey? And it's only my "belief" that the 700 Club, where her confession met with approval, is a notoriously anti-gay venue?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pat+robertson+on+homosexuality&view=detail&mid=2D3F7C4ED72CA699BA5C2D3F7C4ED72CA699BA5C&FORM=VIRE

This is what happens when you start replacing an anti-gay gesture with euphemizing, empty phrases like "she refused to wear a piece of clothing"--that's all.  How can THAT be bigoted? Your words lose all anchorage in reality. She didn't really say and do what she really said and did.

She has stated that she is "conflicted" about an action which would signal acceptance of gays as full citizens, with all the rights and privileges the rest of us have. Hinkel refused to signal that acceptance/tolerance. When people on this thread are "conflicted" about people who cannot endorse the full range of human rights for gays, you say they are, however, showing "hate" and "intolerance"?  Intolerance for intolerance?

[BmorePat87]

(06-07-2018, 06:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let me ask a question of the open-minded:

If the USA women's team decided to have their players wear Gay Pride headbands and a Muslim refused because her faith says she must hear a traditional headgear at all times. You you be viewing that person as a hateful bigot?

Is she willing to wear a pride hijab?

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 06:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There is only one unpardonable sin and being a homosexual is not it. 

It has to deserve punishment in order to be pardoned.

So what is your point?

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 06:40 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes you can. Gay people have always had the ability to get married ... as long as it was to someone from the opposite sex.  If you believe that, then you believe that opposing gay marriage is not denying people equal rights but rather denying people special or unique rights. I get your point and I know you disagree with that argument, but that doesn't mean it's any less valid or less logical.

A right can not be "unique"unless it only applies to a certain group.  Equality is about treating everyone the same. Same sex marriage can not be called a "unique" right because it applies to everyone equally.  When same sex marriage was illegal heterosexuals had a "unique" right because they were the only ones allowed to marry the person they loved and wanted to spend their life with.  

And that is a perfect example of how blind Christians are to how they think.  The consider treating everyone equally as "unique" just because it conflicts with their belief system.

Denying equal rights is discrimination.  You can try to justify it with your religion of "love", but society in general sides with the victims of your "love".  Thius country is base on freedom and equality.  So get used to it.  Discrimination and denegration of people based on their sexual orientation is not going to be accepted any longer. You will not be persecuted by the state because you are guaranteed freedom of religion, but if your religious beliefs are unpopular people will let you know.

[hollodero]

(06-07-2018, 06:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let me ask a question of the open-minded:

If the USA women's team decided to have their players wear Gay Pride headbands and a Muslim refused because her faith says she must hear a traditional headgear at all times. You you be viewing that person as a hateful bigot?

I sure wouldn't approve.

Though I have to say I'd find that reason a little more understandable. There would be a reason that has nothing inherently to do with the Gay pride headband and would apply to any other headband as well. But I still wouldn't like it either.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2018, 06:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  She has done nothing to show that she has hate and intolerance (a bigot) toward anyone different than her.

She has accused them of corrupting society with the acceptance of their right to marry.

She considers their lifestyle an abomination that deserves punishment.

That is the opposite of "tolerance" and about as insulting as you can get.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-08-2018, 10:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: A right can not be "unique"unless it only applies to a certain group.  Equality is about treating everyone the same. Same sex marriage can not be called a "unique" right because it applies to everyone equally.  When same sex marriage was illegal heterosexuals had a "unique" right because they were the only ones allowed to marry the person they loved and wanted to spend their life with.  

And that is a perfect example of how blind Christians are to how they think.  The consider treating everyone equally as "unique" just because it conflicts with their belief system.

Denying equal rights is discrimination.  You can try to justify it with your religion of "love", but society in general sides with the victims of your "love".  Thius country is base on freedom and equality.  So get used to it.  Discrimination and denegration of people based on their sexual orientation is not going to be accepted any longer. You will not be persecuted by the state because you are guaranteed freedom of religion, but if your religious beliefs are unpopular people will let you know.

Just so we're clear, I'm not the one making that argument. What I'm trying to get YOU to understand is that it's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. You claim Christians are blind because of their thought processes and I'm saying they would say the same about you. You can rail all you want about how "Christians" are in favor of discrimination but that doesn't make it any more true or less true than Christians saying you are in favor of giving gays special rights.

As I said, all that matters is what the law says and, currently, your opinion is on the side of the law; just as the Christians' opinions were about 10 years or so ago.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-08-2018, 11:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: She has accused them of corrupting society with the acceptance of their right to marry.

No, she hasn't. Is it not possible for you to go through a single conversation without making shit up about someone?

(06-08-2018, 11:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: She considers their lifestyle an abomination that deserves punishment.

That is the opposite of "tolerance" and about as insulting as you can get.

Assuming the former is true (and all you have is speculation at this point), if she treats every single gay person with love and respect, how is she intolerant? 

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2018, 12:18 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Just so we're clear, I'm not the one making that argument. What I'm trying to get YOU to understand is that it's not as cut and dried as you seem to think. You claim Christians are blind because of their thought processes and I'm saying they would say the same about you. You can rail all you want about how "Christians" are in favor of discrimination but that doesn't make it any more true or less true than Christians saying you are in favor of giving gays special rights.

As I said, all that matters is what the law says and, currently, your opinion is on the side of the law; just as the Christians' opinions were about 10 years or so ago.

The argument about which side is "right" is subjective.  We can debate that.

The argument about which side favors equal rights is not debatable.  "Equal rights" and "discrimination" have definitions that are not subjective.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2018, 12:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, she hasn't. Is it not possible for you to go through a single conversation without making shit up about someone?

Yes she has.  She made extensive posts on the day same sex marriage was made legal bemoaning the fact that the world was becoming mor corrupt and Christians had to pray to fix the problem.  The meaning of her comments are clear for anyone looking at them with an open mind.  She claimed the Bible, which condemns homosexuals to death, was "the Truth" that she lives by.

(06-08-2018, 12:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Assuming the former is true (and all you have is speculation at this point), if she treats every single gay person with love and respect, how is she intolerant? 

Opposing giving them equal rights is not tolerant.

Telling a person their lifestyle is a sin that deserves punishment is the opposite of "respect".  It is insulting and demeaning.

You are just making up your own definitions of "love", "respect", and "tolerance".  It is like a guy who claims he beats his wife because he loves her.  

[*PhilHos*]

(06-08-2018, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The argument about which side is "right" is subjective.  We can debate that.
"Equal rights" and "discrimination" have definitions that are not subjective.

I don't disagree except that how the labels of "equal rights" and "discrimination" are applied can be done subjectively. Hence why you can say a group is in favor of discrimination and said group would say you're in favor of more than equal rights.

(06-08-2018, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The argument about which side favors equal rights is not debatable.  

Yes it is because as I said, the application of the label of "equal rights" can be subjective. 

[*PhilHos*]

(06-08-2018, 12:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes she has.  She made extensive posts on the day same sex marriage was made legal bemoaning the fact that the world was becoming mor corrupt and Christians had to pray to fix the problem.  The meaning of her comments are clear for anyone looking at them with an open mind.  She claimed the Bible, which condemns homosexuals to death, was "the Truth" that she lives by.

By all means, post those posts, because what you've posted so far does not back up your claim.

(06-08-2018, 12:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Opposing giving them equal rights is not tolerant.

And supporting giving someone special rights is?

(06-08-2018, 12:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Telling a person their lifestyle is a sin that deserves punishment is the opposite of "respect".  It is insulting and demeaning.

Do you believe interventions to be insulting, demeaning and disrespectful? I would have to assume so.

(06-08-2018, 12:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are just making up your own definitions of "love", "respect", and "tolerance".  It is like a guy who claims he beats his wife because he loves her.  

Who is the more "loving" or "respectful" person:  the Neo-Nazi skinhead who helps an old, black lady from getting beaten up by a group of thugs or the black liberal Democrat who kicks the homeless guy off his front stoop? According to me, actions speak louder than words and it would be the former. According to you, thoughts are more important than actions and it would be the latter.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2018, 03:12 PM)PhilHos Wrote: By all means, post those posts, because what you've posted so far does not back up your claim.

She believes the Bible, which says homosexuals deserve to be put to death for their actions, is the 100% Truth

Quote:

I believe with every fiber in my body that what was written 2,000 years ago in the Bible is undoubtedly true. It's not a fictional book. It's not a pick and choose what you want to believe. You either believe it, or you don't. This world may change, but Christ and His Word NEVER will.



She believes that same sex marriage is making the world more corrupt

Quote:

It's a constant reminder that no matter how corrupt this world becomes, He will never leave us or forsake us. Thank you Lord for your amazing grace, even during times of trial and confusion.
 ️

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2018, 03:12 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And supporting giving someone special rights is?

Same sex marriage provides equal rights.  It applies equally to everyone.  Limiting marriage just to heterosexuals is a "special" right because it does not apply to everyone equally, it only allows heterosexuals to marry the person the love and want to form a family with.

What about back when people were "free" to marry anyone as long as that person was the same race?  Do you consider that "equal rights" when it prevented many people from marrying the person they loved?

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2018, 03:12 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Do you believe interventions to be insulting, demeaning and disrespectful? I would have to assume so.

Yes.  It is absolutely an insult to tell a person they need an intervention.

No one respects the life of a drug addict.

[fredtoast]

(06-08-2018, 03:12 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Who is the more "loving" or "respectful" person:  the Neo-Nazi skinhead who helps an old, black lady from getting beaten up by a group of thugs or the black liberal Democrat who kicks the homeless guy off his front stoop? According to me, actions speak louder than words and it would be the former. According to you, thoughts are more important than actions and it would be the latter.

She has taken absolutely ZERO actions to help the LGBT community, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

She was given a chance to support them and refused.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-08-2018, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: She believes the Bible, which condemns homosexuals to death, is the 100% Truth

Quote:

I believe with every fiber in my body that what was written 2,000 years ago in the Bible is undoubtedly true. It's not a fictional book. It's not a pick and choose what you want to believe. You either believe it, or you don't. This world may change, but Christ and His Word NEVER will. 

The Bible also condemns ALL sinners to death, claims that every human being that has ever been born (except Jesus) is a sinner. Ergo, the Bible condemns everyone to death.
Clearly, she is advocating that everyone be put to death, right?

(06-08-2018, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: She believes that same sex marriage is making the world more corrupt

Quote:

It's a constant reminder that no matter how corrupt this world becomes, He will never leave us or forsake us. Thank you Lord for your amazing grace, even during times of trial and confusion. 
 ️ 

I don't see where she says that. And considering you're already shown your bias against Christianity and Christians, you'll forgive me for not giving you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to your intrepreation of someone's thoughts and words you clearly have a bias against.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-08-2018, 03:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  It is absolutely an insult to tell a person they need an intervention.

No one respects the life of a drug addict.

Well, I hope none of your kids ever need an intervention because they're going to find a disrespectful and unloving father. 

[*PhilHos*]

(06-08-2018, 03:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: She has taken absolutely ZERO actions to help the LGBT community, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

She was given a chance to support them and refused.

I'll pose the same questoin I posed to Dill: Are you saying the only options one has to any ideology are to fully support it or to completely hate and disrespect it? Is it not possible to oppose something without hating or disrespecting it?


Given your stance, I assume you hate and disrespect Christians, Muslims, Republicans, conservatives, Steeler fans, Dalton haters, attorneys you face in court, etc.