Politics and Religion

[fredtoast]

(03-02-2021, 01:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: How are members of Congress supporting a known racist like Louis Farrakhan with zero repercussions?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/republican-jewish-coalition-calls-resignation-democrats-ties-farrakhan/story?id=53601481

Again with the spin.  These members of congress have "met with" Farrakhan.  None of them have ever supported his anti-Semitic claims or really done anything to "support" him in any way.


Their "connections" to Farrakahn are nothing compared to Steve Scalise speaking at a gathering for the  European-American Unity and Rights Organization. Or  Paul Gosar speaking at AFPAC, or Steve King asking "What is so bad about western culture and white supremacy?"

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-02-2021, 11:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: For one, since the topic is as such, I have to express my bewilderment about your politicians talking about faith and God and prayers so awfully much. Left and Right, everyone prays for every issue and every person and every enemy every minute of every day. This is just gross. But maybe I'm just used to more rationally arguing leaders.

But for sure, many Americans seem to be quite religious people, and many American politicians are incredibly willing to be void of any principle and to appear as whatever is convenient. So probably, no surprise.

I'm also bewildered that 80% or so of republican voters still seem to be in awe of Trump. What also struck me is one of the most popular explanations on how people can overlook all the lies, hyperboly and stupidity in Trump's words. They take him seriously, but not literally, so I'm told. And I suppose quite literally the only other entity that gets this kind of benefit is the Bible. One does not stone thy neighbor if he, whatever, works on a Sunday. One does none of the outrageous things the Bible suggests one should do. But it's still the most sacred book ever written, and holds the one and only truth. Seriously, not literally.

There are many other examples, but this one should do to illustrate my point. To me, the US political struggle less and less looks like a battle of ideas or policies or ideology. It is a religious quarrel. People siding with Trump (not all conservatives, far from it) treat their affiliation as a religious commitment. One that does not need truth or facts or observable variables. Just faith.

And so, I more and more regard Trump not as a political leader, but a religious leader. Not for churches or of Christianity. But for the MAGA church and of Trumpianity. A sect.

It seems to explain a lot.
Your takedown, please.

I have never seen the point between God and religion and I'm still waiting for someone to explain me this.

The God of the books is an idiot. He created something he doesn't like. His own suffering. 

If you write a poem, you can curse, burn, hate the 3rd or 5th line but at the end of the day, you're the one who made it ...

I also don't understand why the notion of God is tied to life after death. 

[fredtoast]

(03-02-2021, 01:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I feel like I could go on a huge rant here, but I'll just say this.  The average democrat and average republican are nowhere near the political spectrum the climate currently suggest.  They're not just one side of boxes you can checkmark down their respective side. 

Actually there one big difference.  Trump won the nomination of his party while the extremist in the Democratic party don't have enough support to take the lead.

So a much larger percentage of Republicans support the crazy extremist of their party.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-02-2021, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually there one big difference.  Trump won the nomination of his party while the extremist in the Democratic party don't have enough support to take the lead.

So a much larger percentage of Republicans support the crazy extremist of their party.

There's a lot out there to support the idea that the DNC prevented Bernie Sanders a fair chance at securing the nomination in 2016. 

Although politically polar opposites, I do think both Trump and Sanders represented a sort of anti-astiblishment candidate for their respective parties.

Also, I think it's worth noting that while Trump's personality may be categorized as extremist (I think clownish is a better word) his policies are/were not when held up to party standards.  In fact, he's more moderate on quite a few things than GOP candidates had been in the past. 

I just think a lot of Americans are tired with a lot that makes up politics in this country, the Mitt Romney, the Hillary Clinton's, the Jeb Bush's, etc. I also think many of them have a lot more in common then what the current represented climate suggests.  The good news is I still think many of them realize this.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-02-2021, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually there one big difference.  Trump won the nomination of his party while the extremist in the Democratic party don't have enough support to take the lead.

So a much larger percentage of Republicans support the crazy extremist of their party.

What do you call an extremist in the Democratic party ?

[fredtoast]

(03-02-2021, 02:54 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: What do you call an extremist in the Democratic party ?

Different ones have taken extreme positions on different issues.  So it is not really an easy question.  So my answer is just based on a general perception.

I guess Bernie Sanders is considered the most extreme.  Alexandria Ocasio, Cory Booker, Kristin Gillibrand, and Ilhan Omar are some others.

Kamala Harris is also an extremist, but I think she has pulled back a little since getting the VP position.

[hollodero]

(03-02-2021, 02:42 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: There's a lot out there to support the idea that the DNC prevented Bernie Sanders a fair chance at securing the nomination in 2016. 

I guess that is the case. But Bernie is not an extreme that is comparable to Trump. And by that I mean that he does not call the media the enemy of the people, or claim the presidency allows him to do whatever he wants, that his opponents ought to be locked up, that accepting foreign election aid is normal and the FBI director is wrong, or put his son-in-law in governemnt, allow said son-in-law to extort Qatar to buy a scyscraper from him, or claim that the other party is into killing new born babies, ot that his opponent is anti-God, or that elections he loses are definitely rigged, that someone needs to do something against that and that he loves the people who try to kill his VP, that you can cut off approved military aid unless that country produces dirt against his oppnoents, or that he fell in love with a brutal dictator, or that Putin is to believed over his own intelligence, or that his opponents are MS13-lovers, or that corona will magically disappear, or that hydroxychloroquine is a legit treatment, or that medical staffers steal masks, or that investigating him or his buddies is treason, or that he likes QAnon for liking him.... and so on and so on.

Which you kinda dismiss of being "clownish", but which is actually extremism, propaganda and dangerous lies. I strongly advocate not to tie Bernie Sanders to all that.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-02-2021, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Different ones have taken extreme positions on different issues.  So it is not really an easy question.  So my answer is just based on a general perception.

I guess Bernie Sanders is considered the most extreme.  Alexandria Ocasio, Cory Booker, Kristin Gillibrand, and Ilhan Omar are some others.

Kamala Harris is also an extremist, but I think she has pulled back a little since getting the VP position.

Those people would be considered as centrist in Europe I guess, you would rather not knowing our 'lefties' ! 

But I find somehow fascinating that Senator Sanders and Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez who look like compassionate people caring for the poors and showing empathy are considered "Extremists" in a country who is supposed to worship a dude called Jesus Christ.

There's a little bit of irony down there. 

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-02-2021, 03:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: I guess that is the case. But Bernie is not an extreme that is comparable to Trump. And by that I mean that he does not call the media the enemy of the people, or claim the presidency allows him to do whatever he wants, that his opponents ought to be locked up, that accepting foreign election aid is normal and the FBI director is wrong, or put his son-in-law in governemnt, allow said son-in-law to extort Qatar to buy a scyscraper from him, or claim that the other party is into killing new born babies, ot that his opponent is anti-God, or that elections he loses are definitely rigged, that someone needs to do something against that and that he loves the people who try to kill his VP, that you can cut off approved military aid unless that country produces dirt against his oppnoents, or that he fell in love with a brutal dictator, or that Putin is to believed over his own intelligence, or that his opponents are MS13-lovers, or that corona will magically disappear, or that hydroxychloroquine is a legit treatment, or that medical staffers steal masks, or that investigating him or his buddies is treason, or that he likes QAnon for liking him.... and so on and so on.

Which you kinda dismiss of being "clownish", but which is actually extremism, propaganda and dangerous lies. I strongly advocate not to tie Bernie Sanders to all that.

Sanders is basically Merkel in politics. 

Trump is basically Hitler.

[Belsnickel]

(03-02-2021, 03:28 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Those people would be considered as centrist in Europe I guess, you would rather not knowing our 'lefties' ! 

But I find somehow fascinating that Senator Sanders and Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez who look like compassionate people caring for the poors and showing empathy are considered "Extremists" in a country who is supposed to worship a dude called Jesus Christ.

There's a little bit of irony down there. 

This country tends to be irony deficient.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-02-2021, 03:29 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Trump is basically Hitler.

This is offensive.

I'll never understand people who so casually toss around the word Nazi, or Hitler.  It's honestly sickening.  The word fascist, I roll my eyes at, as they clearly have no understanding of the word, but this comparison is next level.

Fwiw, didn't vote for Trump either time  Think he's a clownshow.  But engaging in rhetotic like this is so beyond unproductive to rational discourse.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-02-2021, 03:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This is offensive.

I'll never understand people who so casually toss around the word Nazi, or Hitler.  It's honestly sickening.  The word fascist, I roll my eyes at, as they clearly have no understanding of the word, but this comparison is next level.

Fwiw, didn't vote for Trump either time  Think he's a clownshow.  But engaging in rhetotic like this is so beyond unproductive to rational discourse.

From an european point of view, this is what he looks like, I'm not here to please people. 

I find Trump offensive too. Offensive to my human nature, to my human brain and he affects me with emotions I don't want to feel.

The fact that he has 74 millions of people voting for him and his 4 years as a "president' totally changed the view I had about the United States.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-02-2021, 04:20 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: From an european point of view, this is what he looks like, I'm not here to please people.

You speak for Europeans now? 

Quote:I find Trump offensive too. Offensive to my human nature, to my human brain and he affects me with emotions I don't want to feel.

Which is fine.  But comparing him to a man who murdered millions and caused a war that killed millions more is hyperbolic to the point of absurdity.

Quote:The fact that he has 74 millions of people voting for him and his 4 years as a "president' totally changed the view I had about the United States.

Somehow we'll find the courage to go on living.  I don't know that your posts in this thread speak well of your judgment in the first place.

[Belsnickel]

(03-02-2021, 03:50 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This is offensive.

I'll never understand people who so casually toss around the word Nazi, or Hitler.  It's honestly sickening.  The word fascist, I roll my eyes at, as they clearly have no understanding of the word, but this comparison is next level.

Fwiw, didn't vote for Trump either time  Think he's a clownshow.  But engaging in rhetotic like this is so beyond unproductive to rational discourse.

I'll just throw this out there to support your statement. I know, I know, it's a Vox article, but there are legitimate experts on fascism weighing in to say, unanimously, that Trump is not a fascist. There is mention that he had used some fascist tactics, and there is a lot of concern in what they see, but they all agree he is not a fascist.

Edit: I do want to couch this by saying I am looking to see if there is anything from them from after Jan. 6. This was before the election, so pre-"The Big Lie." Some of what they said could've been changed by those events.

Edit again: Really helps if I include the link: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21521958/what-is-fascism-signs-donald-trump

One last edit: this link is from the same series of articles, but after the insurrection attempt. There were a couple of the experts that went so far as to cry fascist, so it wasn't unanimous, but the majority still disagreed with the term: https://www.vox.com/22225472/fascism-definition-trump-fascist-examples

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-02-2021, 03:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: I guess that is the case. But Bernie is not an extreme that is comparable to Trump. And by that I mean that he does not call the media the enemy of the people, or claim the presidency allows him to do whatever he wants, that his opponents ought to be locked up, that accepting foreign election aid is normal and the FBI director is wrong, or put his son-in-law in governemnt, allow said son-in-law to extort Qatar to buy a scyscraper from him, or claim that the other party is into killing new born babies, ot that his opponent is anti-God, or that elections he loses are definitely rigged, that someone needs to do something against that and that he loves the people who try to kill his VP, that you can cut off approved military aid unless that country produces dirt against his oppnoents, or that he fell in love with a brutal dictator, or that Putin is to believed over his own intelligence, or that his opponents are MS13-lovers, or that corona will magically disappear, or that hydroxychloroquine is a legit treatment, or that medical staffers steal masks, or that investigating him or his buddies is treason, or that he likes QAnon for liking him.... and so on and so on.

Which you kinda dismiss of being "clownish", but which is actually extremism, propaganda and dangerous lies. I strongly advocate not to tie Bernie Sanders to all that.

Bear in mind, when I'm using "clownish" I'm not using in a way to diminish (I don't view it as extremist > clownish).  I just think that's a more accurate way to describe his personality, as are a lot of other words (egomaniac, selfish, phony, blowhard, etc.)

The reality is, if you remove his inability to present himself in a better light (by being more polished, by showing/feigning empathy, by thinking or before speaking) his actual polices and stances are far from extreme as it relates to the party.  He's just such an asshole that it presents itself as such.

What we were talking about was how he secured the nomination.  Well, for the answer you have to look at the primaries.  He spent most of his time attacking the other career politicians in the GOP.  Jeb Bush, Ted Cruz, Kasich, Rubio, and Carson.  Voters decided they wanted an outsider, and someone who wasn't afraid to give their honest opinion.

I don't think that's entirely different than what we saw with the Democrats and Sanders.  Sanders represented someone from the outside even though he had years of service.  He spoke to a lot of people in his party that differed from the typical bs you hear from the likes of Hillary Clinton ("I keep a bottle of hot sauce in my purse at all times".)

As I'm writing this I'm tiring.  I definitely do not want go out of my way to defend Donald Trump, and I releaze that's what this is going to be perceived as, whether I like it or not.  Nor do I want to go to bat for the people that stormed the capital, or the idiots who don political swag or make this as "Team ____" or a club.

All I'm trying to do is to get back to my initial point.  The majority of Republicans are not Trumpers, or cult members, or anything of the sort.  Just like the majority of Democrats aren't Antifa, or want the police abolished.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-02-2021, 04:20 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: From an european point of view, this is what he looks like, I'm not here to please people.

I would hope most Europeans don't have this point view, considering most have an intimate understanding of the effects of Hitler and the Nazi party.  To insinuate Trump is an appropriate comparison is outrageously absurd.

Curious, what country are you from?

[masonbengals fan]

(03-02-2021, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually there one big difference.  Trump won the nomination of his party while the extremist in the Democratic party don't have enough support to take the lead.

So a much larger percentage of Republicans support the crazy extremist of their party.

 Extremists such as Bernie & company are getting virtually everything  they want so far in the so called moderate Biden's tenure. 

 Now obviously you're & mine versions of crazy extremists may be different.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-02-2021, 04:38 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I would hope most Europeans don't have this point view, considering most have an intimate understanding of the effects of Hitler and the Nazi party.  To insinuate Trump is an appropriate comparison is outrageously absurd.

Curious, what country are you from?

I might have not expressed myself correctly.

Trump is an idiot but the whole people backing him and who are representing his movement are flat out nazis. 

Voltaire was saying those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. 

And they are playing on this side of history. 

You don't have to hate jews to be a nazi, you just have to make hate the fuel of your life.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-02-2021, 05:03 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: I might have not expressed myself correctly.

Trump is an idiot but the whole people backing him and who are representing his movement are flat out nazis. 

What country are you from?

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-02-2021, 05:06 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: What country are you from?

France.

Our right wing people are terrible people but they are lambs compared to yours.