Pro-Choice People: Babies Feel Excruciating Pain During Abortions

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 09:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's almost like I focused on the word pain than excruciating. 

I've not demanded anything; just simply asked and not asserted someone was wrong. Do you have any idea at what week the pain becomes excruciating? 

I don't find it to be baseless; as he pointed to the conditions set to feel pain can begin as early as 8 weeks. 

Both times Matt explained to Brad that his argument was baseless (which it is, as there is no evidence... which is the very definition of the word baseless), you shot back by asking him when a fetus can feel pain. 

It's interesting that you're more interested in having him provide the answer than having the person making the argument provide it. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 09:56 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I didn't write the article, create the thread, make the argument, ask people how they can disagree with the argument, and then repeatedly bring up the argument. 

I just pointed out that the link didn't provide any evidence. I provided a philosophical argument (and the counter argument to it) that did not take the false premise into account. I'm happy to discuss that.

It provides data that a child feels pain as early as 8 weeks. IMO the adjective is irrelevant; but some feel to focus on that rather than the point. 

I've asked the question at what age does the pain become excruciating and to date I've only gotten replies that support my stance of what the motto of this forum should be:

"I don't know what's right, I just know you're wrong" 

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 10:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Both times Matt explained to Brad that his argument was baseless (which it is, as there is no evidence... which is the very definition of the word baseless), you shot back by asking him when a fetus can feel pain. 

It's interesting that you're more interested in having him provide the answer than having the person making the argument provide it. 

They have both answered when the child can feel pain. 8 weeks. AKA not baseless.

It's interesting that the use of the word excruciating is where you choose to make your stand. 

Debating the use of an adjective in this instance is absurd; so I will cease. We can just all agree that the unborn child can feel pain as early as 8 weeks

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 10:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It provides data that a child feels pain as early as 8 weeks. IMO the adjective is irrelevant; but some feel to focus on that rather than the point. 

I've asked the question at what age does the pain become excruciating and to date I've only gotten replies that support my stance of what the motto of this forum should be:

"I don't know what's right, I just know you're wrong" 

In your opinion the adjective is irrelevant, but I was responding to the OP who made the claim today that a fetus feels "excruciating pain". What you think is honestly irrelevant to me responding to that post. 

I also love the snarky attempt to suggest that responding to the OP is not "the point". Matt touched on this in his response to you and your penchant for misrepresenting everyone. The fact that you do not think the direct argument I was responding to (which is the basis of this thread) is worth discussing does not mean that it isn't "the point". 

Also, you had an answer to your question The answer was "I do not know". The fact that the answers aren't available doesn't make any of us wrong when we pointed out to Brad that his article failed to prove it. 

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 10:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: They have both answered when the child can feel pain. 8 weeks. AKA not baseless.

It's interesting that the use of the word excruciating is where you choose to make your stand. 

Debating the use of an adjective in this instance is absurd; so I will cease. We can just all agree that the unborn child can feel pain as early as 8 weeks

I am going to refer you to my last post since this is directly relevant to my point about your thinking that you know what two other people SHOULD be discussing.  

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 10:21 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: In your opinion the adjective is irrelevant, but I was responding to the OP who made the claim today that a fetus feels "excruciating pain". What you think is honestly irrelevant to me responding to that post. 

I also love the snarky attempt to suggest that responding to the OP is not "the point". Matt touched on this in his response to you and your penchant for misrepresenting everyone. The fact that you do not think the direct argument I was responding to (which is the basis of this thread) is worth discussing does not mean that it isn't "the point". 

Also, you had an answer to your question The answer was "I do not know". The fact that the answers aren't available doesn't make any of us wrong when we pointed out to Brad that his article failed to prove it. 

As I said: The motto of the forum. 

[BFritz21]

(12-26-2018, 09:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Matt already said this, but at no point in the quote you supplied was it said that a fetus feels excruciating pain. This is what happens when people who do not have a scientific background but have a bias opinion that's not based on science write articles on websites with no credibility. 

The only part of the article that suggested that a fetus feels excruciating pain was the title. The subsequent article includes quotes where medical experts confirm that they do not actually know what type of pain a fetus may experience. 

Ok. It says that it feels pain.

Do you happen to think that a baby being poked or even damaged in the least bit isn’t excruciatingly painful, much-less being vacuumed out, ripped limb from limb, or just mashed up with an object?

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 10:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said: The motto of the forum. 

There's certainly nothing wrong with us admitting we do not know an answer. It's far better than suggesting we do and not giving any support for it. 

We can't learn if we do not acknowledge what we don't know. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 10:23 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I am going to refer you to my last post since this is directly relevant to my point about your thinking that you know what two other people SHOULD be discussing.  

Never said what should be discussed. Just that arguing over the adjective is akin to being upset about the arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic. 

Argue the use of the adjective all you want

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 10:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's certainly nothing wrong with us admitting we do not know an answer. It's far better than suggesting we do and not giving any support for it. 

We can't learn if we do not acknowledge what we don't know. 

Nothing wrong with a person stating he/she doesn't know. Of course that's not the point of what I said.

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 10:31 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Ok. It says that it feels pain.

Do you happen to think that a baby being poked or even damaged in the least bit isn’t excruciatingly painful, much-less being vacuumed out, ripped limb from limb, or just mashed up with an object?

I don't know and neither does anyone here. It would merely be conjecture. I'm in no position to make the claim that an immature perception of pain could cause a fetus to feel "excruciating pain". 

That's why I suggested you not focus on that argument. The argument about inherent rights is a better route. 

[GMDino]

(12-26-2018, 10:32 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's certainly nothing wrong with us admitting we do not know an answer. It's far better than suggesting we do and not giving any support for it. 

We can't learn if we do not acknowledge what we don't know. 

Above and beyond this discussion I think some people are afraid that admitting they don't know something will make them look weak.  They have to be right, they have to "win" at all times.

The same kind of people who just keep talking to hear themselves talk rather than to listen.

I find it sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCYvF0IF_Cc

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 10:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Never said what should be discussed. Just that arguing over the adjective is akin to being upset about the arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic. 

Argue the use of the adjective all you want

I told him he shouldn't use an argument that has no basis. I understand that you cherry picked what to focus on in my response to Mike M, but you may recall that I ended it by saying:

"I just pointed out that the link didn't provide any evidence. I provided a philosophical argument (and the counter argument to it) that did not take the false premise into account. I'm happy to discuss that."

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 10:40 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I told him he shouldn't use an argument that has no basis. I understand that you cherry picked what to focus on in my response to Mike M, but you may recall that I ended it by saying:

"I just pointed out that the link didn't provide any evidence. I provided a philosophical argument (and the counter argument to it) that did not take the false premise into account. I'm happy to discuss that."

But the link did provide evidence that an unborn child of only 8 weeks can feel pain. 

Do you agree it did that or not? If you answer is no then it is baseless. If your answer is yes then it has a base. If you answer is anything other than yes or no we'll assume it's a yes. 

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 10:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But the link did provide evidence that an unborn child of only 8 weeks can feel pain. 

Do you agree it did that or not? If you answer is no then it is baseless. If your answer is yes then it has a base. If you answer is anything other than yes or no we'll assume it's a yes. 

If you want to actually look at the post in question and try again, go ahead.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 10:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote:

If you want to actually look at the post in question and try again, go ahead.

So that's a yes. 

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 10:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So that's a yes. 

There's really no shame in admitting that you didn't actually read the post where I responded to Brad. Take ownership (right?).

There's really no reason to keep trying to guide you to a post if you have no desire to actually read it and actually address what I have said in this thread. You seem to think I am hung up on an adjective, and I understand that by responding to about a dozen posts from you, I have led you to believe this is true. I am sorry that me trying to point out your misrepresentation has confused you. I have absolutely no interest in discussing the word excruciating, as I told Mike an hour ago.

I think this abortion threads should be based on arguments of rights not an incomplete understanding what pain sensations, as I told Brad many pages back.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2018, 10:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's really no shame in admitting that you didn't actually read the post where I responded to Brad. Take ownership (right?).

There's really no reason to keep trying to guide you to a post if you have no desire to actually read it and actually address what I have said in this thread. You seem to think I am hung up on an adjective, and I understand that by responding to about a dozen posts from you, I have led you to believe this is true. I am sorry that me trying to point out your misrepresentation has confused you. I have absolutely no interest in discussing the word excruciating, as I told Mike an hour ago.

I think this abortion threads should be based on arguments of rights not an incomplete understanding what pain sensations, as I told Brad many pages back.

I'm actually going with your first reply to me when you said the claim was baseless (#152)

If someone states a child feels excruciating pain and provides a link that shows they experience pain then the argument is not baseless (your retort to me). Embellished? Perhaps. Baseless? No.

I read the words you typed. 

I appreciate your stance on rights, but it doesn't change your reply directly to me. 

[BFritz21]

(12-26-2018, 10:36 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I don't know and neither does anyone here. It would merely be conjecture. I'm in no position to make the claim that an immature perception of pain could cause a fetus to feel "excruciating pain". 

That's why I suggested you not focus on that argument. The argument about inherent rights is a better route. 

This medical expert seems to think that it can feel pain, and the writers of the article have more insight to her opinion than we do, so, if they say that the pain is excruciating, I take their informed opinion over your bias one that was formed to fit your agenda.

  

[BmorePat87]

(12-26-2018, 11:33 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: This medical expert seems to think that it can feel pain
  

And from that alone we can't say anything for certainty, hence why going with excruciating pain isn't a great argument.

Quote:, and the writers of the article have more insight to her opinion than we do

How do you know that for a fact? The fact that they were willing to proclaim that a fetus can feel excruciating pain from what they posted makes me believe they have a flawed understanding of what they read.

Quote:, so, if they say that the pain is excruciating, I take their informed opinion over your bias one that was formed to fit your agenda.

Again, I am going to challenge the informed opinion part of this post.