Pro-Choice People: Babies Feel Excruciating Pain During Abortions

[Belsnickel]

(12-27-2018, 03:59 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ugh,
Irritating to see all of you arguing over a word. Nowhere in the OP's article does Dr Condric claim excruciating pain, only the ability to FEEL pain.

The Rightwing based website is the one trying to slip that word in to get more clicks. Like a left wing based website would do the same thing. Sensationalism.

At 8 weeks, the CNS and Nerves are there and functioning, Dr Condric is simply stating that the fetus has the ability to feel pain at 8 weeks and this is not a lie or subjective.

Here is the original study, where is shows 3d rendered models of the Embryo as it is developing inside and out.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(17)30287-8

I'm well aware of all of this. The OP, however, made the argument based on emotion using the word. We don't know how well a fetus can sense pain, or, to be frank, how painful an abortion would be to a fetus. I get what the argument is of Dr. Condric's, I just think that using it in this way is going further than the evidence allows, and taking it as far as Brad has is definitely further than the evidence can take him.

[Belsnickel]

(12-27-2018, 04:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Some would ask what difference does the word excruciating make in the context of the argument. it's simply a variance of a straw man. You are arguing something that is not the point because you have been presented evidence that counters your position. We can compare Red Team Degrees if you wish.

I haven't been presented any evidence that counters my position. As I have stated previously, whether a fetus feels pain or not is irrelevant to my position as it is one that is entirely based on rights. Without personhood, there are no rights. But to ask what difference the word excruciating makes to the argument we must look at the argument originally presented. The OP relies heavily on the adjective to make that appeal to emotion. I would argue that the word's use in the title and in the OP points to the inability for the word to be extricated from the argument and it is highly pertinent to the argument.
 

(12-27-2018, 04:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As yourself this:

Would you argue if the premise was Babies a fetus feels pain as early as 8 weeks?  If you answer No. then you are on the way the realizing your argue fallacy.

I would state that a fetus has the potential to feel pain at 8 weeks of development. But I've never disputed that in this thread.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2018, 04:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I haven't been presented any evidence that counters my position. As I have stated previously, whether a fetus feels pain or not is irrelevant to my position as it is one that is entirely based on rights. Without personhood, there are no rights. But to ask what difference the word excruciating makes to the argument we must look at the argument originally presented. The OP relies heavily on the adjective to make that appeal to emotion. I would argue that the word's use in the title and in the OP points to the inability for the word to be extricated from the argument and it is highly pertinent to the argument.
 

I would state that a fetus has the potential to feel pain at 8 weeks of development. But I've never disputed that in this thread.

If your position is based solely on rights. Then why are you so wrapped up around the use of the word excruciating to describe the pain felt?  

[Belsnickel]

(12-27-2018, 04:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If your position is based solely on rights. Then why are you so wrapped up around the use of the word excruciating to describe the pain felt?  

Because I am off from work and have nothing better to do than argue about things on the internet.

[*Nately120*]

No pain no gain?

[BmorePat87]

(12-27-2018, 10:05 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: This medical expert says that pain the baby can feel pain because the neural circuitry is in place, so you can't ask a baby, but it seems pretty evident that being ripped limb from limb is pretty painful to a baby.

Especially since I'd have to think that babies still in the womb would be more sensitive to pain than adults or even children once they are born.

Are you seriously basing your argument here off of "we can't ask the baby, so we don't know if being ripped limb from limb is that painful"?

The very fact that you're using the line "I have to think" is really the crux of all of this. We have partial information and you (and the author of the article) make assumptions. All I suggested to you was that since you can't prove your assumption, it's not a good argument.

Quote:What are you basing that off of?  What gives you a better understanding of Dr Condic's opinion than theirs?  

Dr. Condic didn't write the article. 

Quote:You don't think a baby being ripped limb from limb is excruciatingly painful?

An adult being ripped limb from limb would be excruciatingly painful, but you think a baby still in the womb can tolerate the pain more than an adult?

An adult has a mature perception of pain, a fetus does not.

Quote:Challenge all you want, but you're the one making up pretty outrageous claims to fit your agenda.

I didn't make any claims. I pointed to facts and suggested you stay rooted in them.

[BmorePat87]

(12-27-2018, 03:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I obviously made the mistake of responding to a post you addressed to me instead of Brad.

Your standard for assigning pathetic posting habits is peculiar at best.

No, you made the mistake of trying to misrepresent me  :andy:

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-27-2018, 10:47 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: An adult has a mature perception of pain, a fetus does not.

That's not a good argument. The system is in place at 8 weeks for it to "feel" pain, and react to it. It has no idea the depth of pain until it has had been introduced to pain. In reality the first pain it feels will be excruciating because it knows nothing else.

It's the same as me saying Pat i'm gonna hit you on the head.
Until you have experienced it, you have no idea if I am going to gently pat your head or attempt to knock you out. Either way, you are going to react and then sort out the level of the pain.

With that said, if it was possible, they should do a test of the baby getting bumped by the one-eyed dragon vs poked with a needle. If the reaction is the same, then maybe it doesn't have the ability to distinguish yet, but if the reaction is more violent towards the needle poking it, then maybe it does.

Either way, we really should all stop arguing about this, no one is going to bend until there is more evidence supporting their claims.

[BFritz21]

(12-28-2018, 04:14 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: That's not a good argument. The system is in place at 8 weeks for it to "feel" pain, and react to it. It has no idea the depth of pain until it has had been introduced to pain. In reality the first pain it feels will be excruciating because it knows nothing else.

It's the same as me saying Pat i'm gonna hit you on the head.
Until you have experienced it, you have no idea if I am going to gently pat your head or attempt to knock you out. Either way, you are going to react and then sort out the level of the pain.

With that said, if it was possible, they should do a test of the baby getting bumped by the one-eyed dragon vs poked with a needle. If the reaction is the same, then maybe it doesn't have the ability to distinguish yet, but if the reaction is more violent towards the needle poking it, then maybe it does.

Either way, we really should all stop arguing about this, no one is going to bend until there is more evidence supporting their claims.

Amazing points, and liberals never bend, even when they’re faced with facts and logic like you just presented.

It’s like my Democrat aunt when Obama was running for office and she would try to say why he’d be a good President, which I just kept countering her with facts and logic, so finally she just said “well....... you’re just racist.”

I was thinking “that pretty much sums up the logic of Democrats.”

[Belsnickel]

(12-28-2018, 09:31 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Amazing points, and liberals never bend, even when they’re faced with facts and logic like you just presented.

It’s like my Democrat aunt when Obama was running for office and she would try to say why he’d be a good President, which I just kept countering her with facts and logic, so finally she just said “well....... you’re just racist.”

I was thinking “that pretty much sums up the logic of Democrats.”

The problem with this Democrat is that he actually understands what facts are and doesn't accept things that are not facts as such.

[BFritz21]

(12-28-2018, 09:43 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The problem with this Democrat is that he actually understands what facts are and doesn't accept things that are not facts as such.

Then why not address Mike's points.

The entire argument against this turned into "how does a baby know what excruciating is," and he debunked that.

[fredtoast]

(12-29-2018, 12:19 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: The entire argument against this turned into "how does a baby know what excruciating is," and he debunked that.

No he did not.

He claimed that even something as gentle as a breeze would somehow be "excruciating" if it was the first sensation a baby felt.  That just does not make any sense.

Pain can not be felt until the brain is advanced enough to process and register the feeling.  Even plants can react to environmental stress, but that does not mean they actually feel pain.  Just because "the neural circuitry underlying the most basic response to pain is in place" that does not mean the fetus feels any pain at all.  Plants have the circuitry in place to respond to stress (pain) but that does not mean they "feel" anything.

[BmorePat87]

(12-28-2018, 04:14 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: That's not a good argument. 

It's not really an argument, it's a statement of fact and my response to someone asking me to compare how an adult responds to one thing to how a weeks old fetus would. 

Quote:Either way, we really should all stop arguing about this, no one is going to bend until there is more evidence supporting their claims.

Literally the only thing I have tried to "argue" is exactly this statement.