Roseanne canceled by ABC

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 09:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Didn't Keith Olbermann call him a Nazi and a bunch of words I can't repeat here?

But no those are not considered the same because Trump happens to be white (or orange).

And for the peanut gallery: No, that's not a white victim assertion;  as I feel whites are no more slurred by comments toward their personal appearance than folks of any other race. I'm just of the opinion that they are no less slurred. 

[*Nately120*]

Trump is orange by choice. I support his right to choose to look like the 1976 Buccaneers.

[Belsnickel]

(05-30-2018, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. They were racist in nature; if not why do she state she was not talking about Ben Carson when she stated surrounded by racists? Do you think it's because his words and actions were different or do you think maybe, just maybe it had to do with his race?

What was the quote about Ben Carson? Was she saying Carson wasn't a white supremacist?

(05-30-2018, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 3. Of course it is; when talking solely about personal appearance. 

No, it isn't.

(05-30-2018, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 4. Trump looks like an orangutan, VJ looks like an ape. Only someone focused on race would find one of those 2 comments to be more severe. 

Well, understanding the racist history behind calling black people apes helps with that. Trump looking like an orangutan isn't rooted in that same racial history.

(05-30-2018, 09:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can only assume that you do not wish to concede that comments have been made by ABC employees and no apology was issued? Because by your standard there is nothing that could be said that could be racist toward Trump. 

I don't have the position, like some, that white people cannot have racism directed at them. I am just not aware of an accepted definition of racism where it is solely based on an individual's personal appearance. Racism is grounded in prejudices and stereotypes related to racial groups. Making fun of someone's appearance does not fall into that category on its own. But with a history of comparing black people to apes in a way to disparage them, and the Muslim component as well, the comments from Roseanne were blatantly racist.

But I can only assume that you will continue with your false equivalency.

[NATI BENGALS]

So roseanne is a racist and gets fired...

And now poor wittle twump?

Wtf is the matter with people

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 09:11 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: 1. What was the quote about Ben Carson? Was she saying Carson wasn't a white supremacist?


3. No, it isn't.


4. Well, understanding the racist history behind calling black people apes helps with that. Trump looking like an orangutan isn't rooted in that same racial history.


5. I don't have the position, like some, that white people cannot have racism directed at them. I am just not aware of an accepted definition of racism where it is solely based on an individual's personal appearance. Racism is grounded in prejudices and stereotypes related to racial groups. Making fun of someone's appearance does not fall into that category on its own. But with a history of comparing black people to apes in a way to disparage them, and the Muslim component as well, the comments from Roseanne were blatantly racist.

But I can only assume that you will continue with your false equivalency.

1. Yes, she clearly stated she was not talking about Ben Carson when asked on (wait for it) The View

2. You skipped this

3. Of course it is; but we have reached an impasse here

4. You pretty much confirmed what I asserted. One is "more" racist because of the race we focus on. The tired opinion is we cannot all be equal now because of what happened in the past is ******** in its logic

5. So that's a no on conceding ABC affiliates have made comments on par with Rosanne's toward Trump and no apology was issued. 

There's no false equivalency; just a double standard

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 09:16 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: So roseanne is a racist and gets fired...

And now poor wittle twump?

Wtf is the matter with people

I have seen no one say "poor wittle twump"; some may point to a double standard, but that's only the rational folks. Others will look to slur. 

[Bengalzona]

"Why can't we just call a spade, a 'spade'?" Marge Schott

[Dill]

(05-30-2018, 08:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: One of the biggest misconceptions in politics is the role money plays in swaying political opinions. One of the political scientists on my campus, and a friend of mine, did his graduate work with people researching this and he has continued researching it, himself. He actually used to work for OpenSecrets.org before coming here to teach and research.

Anyway, the previous research, and the recent research he has done, indicates that lobbying money doesn't change the positions of elected officials. Elected officials were going to vote the way they were going to with or without lobbyist efforts or donations. That's why lobbyists and donors target them.

I wonder how that study was set up.

There is another manner in which money can influence elections. When the already elected do not do the bidding of, or seriously cross very rich donors, those donors can donate to primary challengers or even to the other party.  That was largely how ENRON got the Texas legislature to vote for privatizing that state's electricity.  With all the Republicans on their side anyway, all they had to do was turn a few Democrats. 

Seems like your friend's study, as described above, might register opposition-targeted influence as minor, since only a few positions were changed. Yet the outcome had a major political effect. I don't know the success rate and frequency for threatening to fund opposition donors. But it seems natural that it would--and that this effect would be difficult to measure.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

The words used to describe Trump have certainly been hyperbolic and over the top. That said, it doesn't change what Barr wrote. You refer to a black person as a monkey or ape and you're done, and rightfully so. Also, no, referring to Trump as an orangutan is not the same thing, as white people have not been historically compared to monkeys to denigrate them. I'm not saying the words used against Trump are excusable, they just aren't on the same level.

[Dill]

(05-30-2018, 12:48 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't have any issue with the firing, either. Like I said, I get it. That was a pretty colossal goof. 

It would be nice if the outrage was equal for hateful words/actions on both sides though. 

Remember when the Dixie Chicks committed career suicide by saying they were "ashamed of Bush"?

15 years later, those comments would look completely tame compared to the multiple threats Trump has received. 

This seems to me an altogether different case. It was a comment on a president's performance, as he prepared to lead the US into a foreign policy disaster.

Also it seems exactly the kind of free speech the First Amendment was designed to protect--criticism of government officials' performance; the kind of thing you don't get to do in a dictatorship or monarchy. 

Roseanne was the employee of a private business, who made a racist comment.  The government did not order her fired. Rather the business did exactly what Trump urged NFL owners to do to those who kneeled during the national anthem, making an actual political statement.

I can't resist pointing out one more factor influencing how I weigh comments about Trump.  Bush was a traditional president. He did not comment negatively on his predecessor while in office, nor call for jailing political opponents. He did not call female private citizens names in public tweets. Once out of office, he pretty much shut up.  In the past we have often heard nasty comments and threats from low lifes addressing presidents who did not deign to respond, thereby upholding the dignity of the office.  I respect that in Bush. People who made fun of Bush's looks or otherwise simply called him names only lowered themselves without touching Bush.

In contrast, reading Trump tweets is rather like reading anonymous readers' comments on Breitbart articles.  The person occupying the highest office in the land is down there in the mud, yet many of the people he attacks refuse to stoop to that level. They do not respond in kind. So the traditional relation between president and critics is reversed in his case.

[fredtoast]

(05-30-2018, 08:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There's only one reason Rosanne's comments are painted as more severe: It was because they were made against a person of color and that color was not orange.  

Wrong.  Rosanne's comments were racist.  They insulted an entire race.  The commenst about Trump were not racist.  There is no entire race of people insulted about being called "orange".  

If someone had claimedd Trump was racist because all white people were racist then that would demand an apology.  But the reason trump was called a racist is because of comments he has made and specific things he has done.  There was no racial stero type involved.

False equivancy.

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 11:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The words used to describe Trump have certainly been hyperbolic and over the top.  That said, it doesn't change what Barr wrote.  You refer to a black person as a monkey or ape and you're done, and rightfully so. Also, no, referring to Trump as an orangutan is not the same thing, as white people have not been historically compared to monkeys to denigrate them.  I'm not saying the words used against Trump are excusable, they just aren't on the same level.

I've already shared my view of how we will ****** growth as a society, if we keep focusing on these "historical" comparisons. We will never be equal if we insist on being separate.

The only reason one comment is less inexcusable than the other is because of what happened in the past. To continue to bring it up will never allow us to progress.

Is calling an Asian American a "slope" as atrocious as calling  an African American an "ape"?

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-30-2018, 09:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have seen no one say "poor wittle twump"; some may point to a double standard, but that's only the rational folks. Others will look to slur. 

Remember when being sick of political correctness was a pillar of Trumps campaign?

Now people are crying because every comment about him isnt praise... And demanding apologies for him. After roseann got fired. 

Its like a little mentally deranged cult following. 

I remember the shitty red headed liberal comedian a lot of people didnt like getting the axe after a big blunder. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 11:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  Rosanne's comments were racist.  They insulted an entire race.  The commenst about Trump were not racist.  There is no entire race of people insulted about being called "orange".  

If someone had claimedd Trump was racist because all white people were racist then that would demand an apology.  But the reason trump was called a racist is because of comments he has made and specific things he has done.  There was no racial stero type involved.

False equivancy.

Why do you think Jemele Hill stated she wasn't talking about Ben Carson when she said Trump was surrounded by White Supermists? Was it because of his comments and actions or was it because he wasn't white?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(05-30-2018, 11:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  Rosanne's comments were racist.  They insulted an entire race.  The commenst about Trump were not racist.  There is no entire race of people insulted about being called "orange".  

Oompah Loompah's?

[Millhouse]

Is it just me, but why isnt anyone talking about Trump referring to himself in the first person instead of using the words me or myself, in his tweet up above?

There has to be some psychological word for that.

[fredtoast]

(05-31-2018, 12:05 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Why do you think Jemele Hill stated she wasn't talking about Ben Carson when she said Trump was surrounded by White Supermists? Was it because of his comments and actions or was it because he wasn't white?

I don't know.  Maybe she has some personal knowledge of Ben Carson.  All I know is that she did not say every white person is a racist.  I am white and I was not offended by her comments.  Trump has done and said many things that would indicate he is a racist.  The commenst were not based on the color of his skin.

But EVERY black person is offended by claiming black people are apes.  Everyone seems to understand this except you.

[fredtoast]

(05-30-2018, 11:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've already shared my view of how we will ****** growth as a society, if we keep focusing on these "historical" comparisons. We will never be equal if we insist on being separate.

There is nothing "historical" about it.

Check out the website "Chimpout", and tell me there is no longer a racial element to comparing black people to apes.

Sticking your head in the sand and denying reality will not solve anything.

[*bfine32*]

(05-31-2018, 12:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know.  Maybe she has some personal knowledge of Ben Carson.  All I know is that she did not say every white person is a racist.  I am white and I was not offended by her comments.  Trump has done and said many things that would indicate he is a racist.  The commenst were not based on the color of his skin.

But EVERY black person is offended by claiming black people are apes.  Everyone seems to understand this except you.

You have 0 idea if EVERY black person is offended by Rosanne's comments. And I saw nothing in her comments that suggested all black people are apes. But as long as there are folks like you and "everyone" that keep telling folks what they think, given to hyperbole,  and how some are less than others; then we'll never be equal. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-30-2018, 11:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've already shared my view of how we will ****** growth as a society, if we keep focusing on these "historical" comparisons. We will never be equal if we insist on being separate.

I understand your point.  I also agree with the idea that we cannot constantly relive past injustices in the present.  That being said, we also cannot divorce ourselves from the past entirely.  The plain fact is that comparing black people to monkeys and apes has been widely used, both to justify slavery and to justify treating blacks as lesser citizens, in this country.  That doesn't mean comparing any other race to a monkey or ape is acceptable.

Quote:The only reason one comment is less inexcusable than the other is because of what happened in the past. To continue to bring it up will never allow us to progress.

Again, I get your general point, but, also again, you cannot divorce us from our past entirely.  I am not responsible for the sins of my ancestors, but I can acknowledge past injustice and not perpetuate it.  If part of that is knowing that comparing a black person to a monkey or ape is more reprehensible than comparing other ethnicities to these animals than so be it.

Quote:Is calling an Asian American a "slope" as atrocious as calling  an African American an "ape"?

I'm not really interested in ranking ethnic slurs in an offensive hierarchy.  I can say that calling a white person a "slope" is not nearly as offensive as calling an asian person one for the same reasons given above.