SCOTUS: Trump military trans ban can continue during appeals process

[BmorePat87]

(01-22-2019, 11:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell everybody feels dysphoria at one point or another in their lives. I speak strictly about someone identifying as Transgender. More specifically the 3 different levels:

Simply identifying

Hormonal/drug treatments

Surgical proceedure

I don't think one's gender identity is strictly psychological, there's a social/behavioral/physical aspect to it too. For the others, those are medical treatments. 

[Benton]

(01-22-2019, 07:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Everything on your body and in your mind is relevant.

As I said I'm torn on the decision, but it has to be classified. I don't know why anyone would fight against this. 

We ask have you ever thought about suicide: should that be allowed? 

To the first, yes and no. Not being overweight makes sense; a mostly cosmetic change that could give you a more complete sense of self, I guess I don't understand, outside of the hormones (which are the majority non cosmetic component).

To the second, at one time people fought to let minorities in for similar barriers.

Considering the job, deinitely. But suicidal thoughts and feeling your gender isn't correct aren't the same.

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 12:04 AM)Benton Wrote: To the first, yes and no. Not being overweight makes sense; a mostly cosmetic change that could give you a more complete sense of self, I guess I don't understand, outside of the hormones (which are the majority non cosmetic component).

To the second, at one time people fought to let minorities in for similar barriers.

Considering the job, deinitely. But suicidal thoughts and feeling your gender isn't correct aren't the same.

Of course suicidal thoughts and feeling your gender is not the same; really nothing is the same. But they are similar: you feel you don't belong.

Not sure that failing to disclose medical information is the same as barring minorities from service

Hormones are an issue because the Military is a "competition" when it comes to promotions. For instance (not that I have any personal experience but) if a Soldier is striving for advancement and part of that advancement is how well you preform on the fitness test compared to your peers. Should you be required to disclose if you are undergoing any type of hormone treatment?

[treee]

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742771576039460864

[GMDino]

(01-23-2019, 01:14 AM)treee Wrote: https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/742771576039460864

I can't imagine many bought it then...but I can't believe any buy it now! 

[Benton]

(01-23-2019, 01:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course suicidal thoughts and feeling your gender is not the same; really nothing is the same. But they are similar: you feel you don't belong.

Not sure that failing to disclose medical information is the same as barring minorities from service

Hormones are an issue because the Military is a "competition" when it comes to promotions. For instance (not that I have any personal experience but) if a Soldier is striving for advancement and part of that advancement is how well you preform on the fitness test compared to your peers. Should you be required to disclose if you are undergoing any type of hormone treatment?

As far as the suicidal thoughts, I don't think that's any kind of a comparison. There's an effort to try and relate it by trying to say both are mental conditions (which is incorrect) or by the more dubious trying to link transgenderism and suicide. I think everyone at some point has feelings they don't belong, but not everyone gets access to fully automatic weapons or is entrusted to protect someone else.

You've never seen Mulan? 



Seriously, though, it's more relevant than trying to draw comparisons to transgender folks and suicidal thoughts. At one time, people said women couldn't serve because they were emotional or physically incapable or because the effect it would have on morale or whatever. Blacks were part of several military operations, but not generally combat until the 40s or 50s. I think the harder part for transgenders is there are fewer of them wanting to join the military, so there isn't as much benefit by allowing them to serve in comparison to the presupposition by some that all transgenders are homosexuals, drag queens, etc. 

And to answer the question, I dunno. I'm not in the military. To me, promotions would logically be more concerned with a person's ability to lead, understand his role and duties, and his history. 

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 01:26 AM)Benton Wrote: As far as the suicidal thoughts, I don't think that's any kind of a comparison. There's an effort to try and relate it by trying to say both are mental conditions (which is incorrect) or by the more dubious trying to link transgenderism and suicide. I think everyone at some point has feelings they don't belong, but not everyone gets access to fully automatic weapons or is entrusted to protect someone else.

You've never seen Mulan? 



Seriously, though, it's more relevant than trying to draw comparisons to transgender folks and suicidal thoughts. At one time, people said women couldn't serve because they were emotional or physically incapable or because the effect it would have on morale or whatever. Blacks were part of several military operations, but not generally combat until the 40s or 50s. I think the harder part for transgenders is there are fewer of them wanting to join the military, so there isn't as much benefit by allowing them to serve in comparison to the presupposition by some that all transgenders are homosexuals, drag queens, etc. 

And to answer the question, I dunno. I'm not in the military. To me, promotions would logically be more concerned with a person's ability to lead, understand his role and duties, and his history. 

Your thoughts about the mental aspects are yours.

As to the part you dunno about (FWIW easy cop out) Physical fitness is very important for a Military Leader especially in the Combat Arms community. Hell Steven Hawkings could "lead" but could he lead them in the charge over the hill

[Benton]

(01-23-2019, 01:37 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Your thoughts about the mental aspects are yours.

As to the part you dunno about (FWIW easy cop out) Physical fitness is very important for a Military Leader especially in the Combat Arms community. Hell Steven Hawkings could "lead" but could he lead them in the charge over the hill

Comparing someone going through a sex change with someone suffering from final stages ALS... yup.

If a transgender person can pass the physical tests, I don't really see what the issue is.

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 01:53 AM)Benton Wrote: Comparing someone going through a sex change with someone suffering from final stages ALS... yup.

If a transgender person can pass the physical tests, I don't really see what the issue is.

No sure what Lou Gehrig has to do with the discussion at hand; you've lost me.

It's not an issue of passing; it's an issue of how you compare to your peers. A biological man identifying as a female (or even a biological female on steroids) has a physical advantage over a biological female. Conversely a biological female identifying as a male has a disadvantage against a biological male.

You may not dunno if it's relevant, but it is.  

[Benton]

(01-23-2019, 02:02 AM)bfine32 Wrote: No sure what Lou Gehrig has to do with the discussion at hand; you've lost me.

Ok. I assumed "Steven Hawkings" was supposed to be "Stephen Hawking." My apologies as I thought you were trying to compare Stephen Hawking's physical inabilities with a transgender person.

I guess my question then is: who the **** is Steven Hawkings? 

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 02:36 AM)Benton Wrote: Ok. I assumed "Steven Hawkings" was supposed to be "Stephen Hawking." My apologies as I thought you were trying to compare Stephen Hawking's physical inabilities with a transgender person.

I guess my question then is: who the **** is Steven Hawkings? 

Be careful those **** will get a thread locked. My reference to Steven Stephen (imagine my same) Hawkings Hawking (shamed twice) was to illustrate that physical fitness is important to a Military Leader; no comparison to transgender made. It was illustrating the importance of physical fitness (the element you dunno about). So that explains my confusion. 

[Benton]

(01-23-2019, 02:46 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Be careful those **** will get a thread locked. My reference to Steven Stephen (imagine my same) Hawkings Hawking (shamed twice) was to illustrate that physical fitness is important to a Military Leader; no comparison to transgender made. It was illustrating the importance of physical fitness (the element you dunno about). So that explains my confusion. 

No comparison... Which is why you made the comparison... Because there's no comparison... Even the comparison you made.... Or... Didn't.

[BmorePat87]

Stephen Hawking had ALS. It was a much slower progressing form of it. Just wanted to clear up that interchange that seemed confused about that.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 01:37 AM)bfine32 Wrote: As to the part you dunno about (FWIW easy cop out) Physical fitness is very important for a Military Leader especially in the Combat Arms community. Hell Steven Hawkings could "lead" but could he lead them in the charge over the hill

I would think that physical fitness would be very important to ALL military personnel in the combat arms community, but I can't imagine that the military picks leaders based on who runs the fastest or lifts the most weight.  If so then that may explain why they have not won a war in almost 80 years.

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 02:54 AM)Benton Wrote: No comparison... Which is why you made the comparison... Because there's no comparison... Even the comparison you made.... Or... Didn't.

I made the comparison in reply to your dunno about if physical Fitness should be an input for promotion. I in no way compared transgender to the guy whose name I spelled wrong. I know it would make the thread more divisive if you could paint that picture, but that is not what I did.

[GMDino]

(01-23-2019, 12:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I made the comparison in reply to your dunno about if physical Fitness should be an input for promotion. I in no way compared transgender to the guy whose name I spelled wrong. I know it would make the thread more divisive if you could paint that picture, but that is not what I did.

So as long as the transgender person can physically and mentally do the job there should be no problem.

Clearly physical impairments might keep anyone from leading a charge over the hill...but it wouldn't keep them from doing other support work would it?  Someone has to man the radars, drones, communications, etc.

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 12:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I would think that physical fitness would be very important to ALL military personnel in the combat arms community, but I can't imagine that the military picks leaders based on who runs the fastest or lifts the most weight.  If so then that may explain why they have not won a war in almost 80 years.

It is important to all; however, just like every aspect, the better you do, the more you score. my point was/is that transgenders are just like Stephen Hawking..........


OK, that really wasn't my point and my hope is 99.9% of the reader understood it; as it appears you do. A transgender biological male identifying as female undergoing hormone therapy or simply identifying has an unfair advantage over a biological female.

Now I'm not stupid enough to believe that is their main reason for transition; but it doesn't remove the advantage  and it needs to be annotated. I do see the Army going the way of youth soccer and giving everybody a juice box, but my hope is that promotion remains a competitive function.

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 12:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: So as long as the transgender person can physically and mentally do the job there should be no problem.

Clearly physical impairments might keep anyone from leading a charge over the hill...but it wouldn't keep them from doing other support work would it?  Someone has to man the radars, drones, communications, etc.

Exactly and that's why I say I'm torn. My issue was with the transgender transitioning/identifying has an unfair advantage in physical fitness, so it must be known and relevant.

[GMDino]

(01-23-2019, 12:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Exactly and that's why I say I'm torn. My issue was with the transgender transitioning/identifying has an unfair advantage in physical fitness, so it must be known and relevant.

Unfair?

As long as they can do it...that should be the final test.

I'll assume there are some government rules on steroids and such though?

[*bfine32*]

(01-23-2019, 12:55 PM)GMDino Wrote: Unfair?

As long as they can do it...that should be the final test.

I'll assume there are some government rules on steroids and such though?

Your fitness test is scored, your ruck march times are recorded, ect....It's not simply a pass/fail. And the better you do on these and other activities the more competitive you are for promotion.

All medications have to be reported.