Posts: 17,994
Threads: 454
Reputation:
112150
Joined: May 2015
Location: Nashville, TN
Mood: None
Meanwhile the Cowboys have the following starters on their OL:
Tyron Smith, Jonathan Cooper, Travis Frederick, Zack Martin = 1st rounders
La'el Collins = UDFA due to investigation at the time, but was given a 1st round grade for talent (similar to what happened with Burfict).
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Patience has paid off!
Sorry for Party Rocking!
Posts: 14,154
Threads: 501
Reputation:
106706
Joined: May 2015
Mood:
(07-19-2017, 05:20 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: I wish Andy could do more on his own, so a few of these above picks could have been spent on D.
I don't really understand this statement. While I agree with everything you said about having some high picks and talent at his disposal, remember that they needed quality DEPTH of talent at the so-called skill positions such as WR, TE, etc.
Last season, when AJ and Eifert were out, Andy had very few weapons that could generate a lot of separation. Subsequently, he had to hold on to the ball longer, and took more hits because of it. It also made the offensive line look worse that it really was. Combined with a lack of a vertical threat to stretch the defense and help create voids in coverage underneath and I am pretty damn amazed what Dalton did with his dearth of weapons and protection, not to mention complete lack of a running game.
Where would you have spent the picks on D? The secondary is loaded with first round talent and our safety position might be our deepest position group. They signed Minter as a key FA for the LB corps, and have Vigil, Vinny Rey, and a healthy Burfict. They used two picks on pass rushers, that happened to be two of the best in the draft. I am still amazed that we got Willis in the third round. I bet he has a better season than Garrett.
They needed a pounder in the running game that can also catch and got a steal in Mixon.
The defensive front is already a very crowded position group with guys like Hardison, Glasgow, and Billings all joining the mix.
I think the Bengals FINALLY realized they needed a real vertical threat (and Ross is so much more than just that) opposite AJ Green and I can't wait to see them all on the field together. Add in a strong TE group and Mixon and the offense might just be able to be a top 5 unit....like the defense.
Posts: 20,242
Threads: 98
Reputation:
186812
Joined: May 2015
Location: Bluegrass Region
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 10:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Meanwhile the Cowboys have the following starters on their OL:
Tyron Smith, Jonathan Cooper, Travis Frederick, Zack Martin = 1st rounders
La'el Collins = UDFA due to investigation at the time, but was given a 1st round grade for talent (similar to what happened with Burfict).
It all starts in the trenches, but we don't "value" interior linemen.....smh.
"Better send those refunds..."
Posts: 20,242
Threads: 98
Reputation:
186812
Joined: May 2015
Location: Bluegrass Region
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 10:48 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't really understand this statement. While I agree with everything you said about having some high picks and talent at his disposal, remember that they needed quality DEPTH of talent at the so-called skill positions such as WR, TE, etc.
Last season, when AJ and Eifert were out, Andy had very few weapons that could generate a lot of separation. Subsequently, he had to hold on to the ball longer, and took more hits because of it. It also made the offensive line look worse that it really was. Combined with a lack of a vertical threat to stretch the defense and help create voids in coverage underneath and I am pretty damn amazed what Dalton did with his dearth of weapons and protection, not to mention complete lack of a running game.
Where would you have spent the picks on D? The secondary is loaded with first round talent and our safety position might be our deepest position group. They signed Minter as a key FA for the LB corps, and have Vigil, Vinny Rey, and a healthy Burfict. They used two picks on pass rushers, that happened to be two of the best in the draft. I am still amazed that we got Willis in the third round. I bet he has a better season than Garrett.
They needed a pounder in the running game that can also catch and got a steal in Mixon.
The defensive front is already a very crowded position group with guys like Hardison, Glasgow, and Billings all joining the mix.
I think the Bengals FINALLY realized they needed a real vertical threat (and Ross is so much more than just that) opposite AJ Green and I can't wait to see them all on the field together. Add in a strong TE group and Mixon and the offense might just be able to be a top 5 unit....like the defense.
This is what I don't understand either.....on paper, the defense is pretty stacked. In fact, on paper, the whole team is.....save for the o line. I wonder where the main problem lies..... 
"Better send those refunds..."
Posts: 293
Threads: 14
Joined: Feb 2017
Mood: None
This has nothing to do with expectations of all #1 and 2 rnd picks to be stars
Few are.
It has more to deal with investing such a high % of your top picks on skill players
There are many other needs on a football field. The bengals have had to select a very high % of top picks on these types of players over the last 5 years.
The Steelers WRs are 3rd,4th and 6th round picks
Their TE is a 5th rounder
And their RBs are a 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder and a scrap heap journeyman
Posts: 12,712
Threads: 127
Reputation:
81808
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 11:52 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: This has nothing to do with expectations of all #1 and 2 rnd picks to be stars
Few are.
It has more to deal with investing such a high % of your top picks on skill players
Let's See.
Obueghi 1st rnd
Fisher 2nd rnd
Andre Smith 1st rnd
Then you have Boiling a 5th rounder who has way out played his draft status
Bodine 4th rnd.
Then the guys that left Zeitler 1st rnd Big Whit was a while back but he was a second rnd pick...
I have the Heart of a Lion! I also have a massive fine and a lifetime ban from the Pittsburgh Zoo...
Posts: 293
Threads: 14
Joined: Feb 2017
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 10:48 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think the Bengals FINALLY realized they needed a real vertical threat (and Ross is so much more than just that) opposite AJ Green and I can't wait to see them all on the field together.
I dont disagree with the concept, but andy dalton doesnt have the arm to do this.
Accuracy Percentage On 16+ Throws: 44.7% (23rd)
Accuracy Percentage on 20+ Throws: 39.7% (24th)
Posts: 17,994
Threads: 454
Reputation:
112150
Joined: May 2015
Location: Nashville, TN
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 11:45 AM)Wyche Wrote: It all starts in the trenches, but we don't "value" interior linemen.....smh.
Maybe back in the old days when practically no pressure came from the middle that might have been a sound philosophy, but in today's NFL, there's a ton of pressure coming from the interior. It's really difficult to get by with mid-round interior OL now. Gotta have really good coaching or get a guy with a lot of talent and character issues that caused him to drop in the draft.
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Patience has paid off!
Sorry for Party Rocking!
Posts: 20,242
Threads: 98
Reputation:
186812
Joined: May 2015
Location: Bluegrass Region
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 12:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Maybe back in the old days when practically no pressure came from the middle that might have been a sound philosophy, but in today's NFL, there's a ton of pressure coming from the interior. It's really difficult to get by with mid-round interior OL now. Gotta have really good coaching or get a guy with a lot of talent and character issues that caused him to drop in the draft.
Yessir....behind the times it seems.
"Better send those refunds..."
Posts: 20,242
Threads: 98
Reputation:
186812
Joined: May 2015
Location: Bluegrass Region
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 12:03 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote:
I dont disagree with the concept, but andy dalton doesnt have the arm to do this.
Accuracy Percentage On 16+ Throws: 44.7% (23rd)
Accuracy Percentage on 20+ Throws: 39.7% (24th)
Interesting numbers.....but the vertical threats open up the run game and underneath passing game.
"Better send those refunds..."
Posts: 12,712
Threads: 127
Reputation:
81808
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 12:03 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote:
I dont disagree with the concept, but andy dalton doesnt have the arm to do this.
Accuracy Percentage On 16+ Throws: 44.7% (23rd)
Accuracy Percentage on 20+ Throws: 39.7% (24th)
Wasn't there a thread like a month ago that showed Andy had a passer rating of 139 on deep routes?
Edit: Found it.
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Dalton-Has-A-PERFECT-Passer-Rating-On-Posts
That's all while running for his life...
I have the Heart of a Lion! I also have a massive fine and a lifetime ban from the Pittsburgh Zoo...
Posts: 17,994
Threads: 454
Reputation:
112150
Joined: May 2015
Location: Nashville, TN
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 12:03 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote:
I dont disagree with the concept, but andy dalton doesnt have the arm to do this.
Accuracy Percentage On 16+ Throws: 44.7% (23rd)
Accuracy Percentage on 20+ Throws: 39.7% (24th)
I have three questions:
1) Where did you get this data?
2) What percentage is the #1, #10, and #20 for each?
3) What year is this? Or is this Dalton's career percentage?
The reason I ask these questions is because I've seen proof to state otherwise (at least the past couple years), and so I wonder where these different values are coming from.
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Patience has paid off!
Sorry for Party Rocking!
Posts: 15,111
Threads: 221
Reputation:
147301
Joined: May 2015
Mood:
Ooh this is fun. Since Russell Wilson was drafted, the Seahawks have invested on offense...
1 of their 2 first rounders
5 of their 10 picks in the top 2 rounds
10 of their 19 picks in the top 3 rounds
Traded a 1st round pick for Jimmy Graham
Made Beast Mode one of the best paid RB's in the NFL
Signed Eddie Lacy to replace him
Drafted Paul Richardson (WR), Tyler Lockett (WR), Amara Darboh (WR), Nick Vannett (TE), Germain Ifedi (Tackle), Justin Britt (Tackle), Rees Odhiambo (Guard), and Ethan Pocic (Center) within the first 3 rounds over the last 4 years.
Signed Doug Baldwin to a big contract
Too bad Russell Wilson can't do more on his own, so the Seahawks could focus on their defense. Btw...I could do this with any QB. Go ahead and pick one.
-------------------------------
Also, from 2011-present we've drafted...
5 offensive players in round 1
3 defensive players in round 1
12 offensive players in the first 3 rounds
12 defensive players in the first 3 rounds
Is that really so lopsided? OP is reaching hard.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Posts: 15,111
Threads: 221
Reputation:
147301
Joined: May 2015
Mood:
(07-21-2017, 11:52 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: This has nothing to do with expectations of all #1 and 2 rnd picks to be stars
Few are.
It has more to deal with investing such a high % of your top picks on skill players
There are many other needs on a football field. The bengals have had to select a very high % of top picks on these types of players over the last 5 years.
The Steelers WRs are 3rd,4th and 6th round picks
Their TE is a 5th rounder
And their RBs are a 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder and a scrap heap journeyman
I would agree that the Bengals spend too many picks on skill position offensive players, but I disagree that it's because Dalton sucks. It's because the Bengals avoid free agency and trades. Pick me out a handful of good QBs, and I guarantee I can find you a very good mix of draft picks and FA/trade acquisitions.
Btw, your logic with the Steelers is flawed or biased.
"The Steelers WRs are 3rd,4th and 6th round picks" - The 6th round pick was Antonio Brown, who they just gave a huge contract. If Ben were able to do more on his own and can get it done with scrub 6th rounders, why not invest that money elsewhere? Also, if you count guys like Sanu (3rd rounder) and Marvin Jones (5th rounder) then why can't we count Martavis Bryant and Sammie Coates?
"Their TE is a 5th rounder" - Jesse James was a 2nd rounder. There is no 5th round TE on their roster.
"And their RBs are a 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder and a scrap heap journeyman" - Knile Davis is on his 3rd team. Bit of a stretch to call him a journeyman. They have a 2nd rounder (that panned out in a major way) and a pair of 3rd round picks if you count Davis. Now is that really that much different than a trio of 2nd rounders? Plus, is it worth considering that maybe we keep taking 2nd round RB's because they're not panning out? If LeVeon Bell was a turd, I doubt the Steelers would've just stopped trying to find a RB for Ben.
----------------------
Honestly though...are we REALLY comparing Dalton's weapons to Ben's? Obviously Dalton can only Pray that Mixon turns out as good as Bell. Hopefully Ross will be as productive as Bryant. Dalton has to "hope" while Ben already know what he has. Maybe that's why we keep taking skill position players. That, and ours have become free agents and walked for big contracts elsewhere. Ben hasn't had that problem lately. Yet. The Steelers have kept their linemen and we'll see who the Steelers draft when/if Bell and Bryant leave.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Posts: 6,726
Threads: 48
Reputation:
44400
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 11:52 AM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: This has nothing to do with expectations of all #1 and 2 rnd picks to be stars
Few are.
It has more to deal with investing such a high % of your top picks on skill players
There are many other needs on a football field. The bengals have had to select a very high % of top picks on these types of players over the last 5 years.
The Steelers WRs are 3rd,4th and 6th round picks
Their TE is a 5th rounder
And their RBs are a 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder and a scrap heap journeyman
And the Steelers have an UDFA starting at LT. The guy he replaced was a 7th round pick.
Posts: 293
Threads: 14
Joined: Feb 2017
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 02:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I would agree that the Bengals spend too many picks on skill position offensive players, but I disagree that it's because Dalton sucks. It's because the Bengals avoid free agency and trades. Pick me out a handful of good QBs, and I guarantee I can find you a very good mix of draft picks and FA/trade acquisitions.
Btw, your logic with the Steelers is flawed or biased.
"The Steelers WRs are 3rd,4th and 6th round picks" - The 6th round pick was Antonio Brown, who they just gave a huge contract. If Ben were able to do more on his own and can get it done with scrub 6th rounders, why not invest that money elsewhere? Also, if you count guys like Sanu (3rd rounder) and Marvin Jones (5th rounder) then why can't we count Martavis Bryant and Sammie Coates?
"Their TE is a 5th rounder" - Jesse James was a 2nd rounder. There is no 5th round TE on their roster.
"And their RBs are a 2nd rounder, 3rd rounder and a scrap heap journeyman" - Knile Davis is on his 3rd team. Bit of a stretch to call him a journeyman. They have a 2nd rounder (that panned out in a major way) and a pair of 3rd round picks if you count Davis. Now is that really that much different than a trio of 2nd rounders? Plus, is it worth considering that maybe we keep taking 2nd round RB's because they're not panning out? If LeVeon Bell was a turd, I doubt the Steelers would've just stopped trying to find a RB for Ben.
----------------------
Honestly though...are we REALLY comparing Dalton's weapons to Ben's? Obviously Dalton can only Pray that Mixon turns out as good as Bell. Hopefully Ross will be as productive as Bryant. Dalton has to "hope" while Ben already know what he has. Maybe that's why we keep taking skill position players. That, and ours have become free agents and walked for big contracts elsewhere. Ben hasn't had that problem lately. Yet. The Steelers have kept their linemen and we'll see who the Steelers draft when/if Bell and Bryant leave.
Jesse James was a 5th rounder. Pick 160.
Posts: 293
Threads: 14
Joined: Feb 2017
Mood: None
With all of these picks the bengals have had to expend on skill
Dalton remains a bottom half tierd QB by nearly every measurable ranking I've seen to date.
He is limited. He's about a 16-20 ranked QB and needs perfect execution for online and his skill players to succeed.
Posts: 7,772
Threads: 90
Reputation:
21003
Joined: Nov 2015
Mood: None
(07-21-2017, 03:22 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: With all of these picks the bengals have had to expend on skill
Dalton remains a bottom half tierd QB by nearly every measurable ranking I've seen to date.
He is limited. He's about a 16-20 ranked QB and needs perfect execution for online and his skill players to succeed.
Not sure what your reading but it is wrong but I guess the stuff your sniffing for AJ is making him great... 
Posts: 293
Threads: 14
Joined: Feb 2017
Mood: None
Posts: 12,712
Threads: 127
Reputation:
81808
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
I have the Heart of a Lion! I also have a massive fine and a lifetime ban from the Pittsburgh Zoo...
|
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
