So you think Trump won't be elected again in 2024. Wanna bet?

[KillerGoose]

(09-08-2022, 11:06 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Honestly, I don't see a problem executing a drug dealer who sold lethal drugs to anyone causing death. Add attempted murder to those same type of drugs causing an individual to be narcanned. I bet many left leaning people feel the same way. Also, if you fully trust DOJ is above creating false evidence and framing people your too trusting. Specially when politics or parties are involved. 

I'm not a big advocate for the death penalty, but harsher penalties for drug dealers is fine by me. However, it doesn't really solve the problem. Some kind of drug reform needs to happen and I don't know what that looks like. Over the years, legalization has been a growing topic online and some of their points make sense but there is obviously the engrained stigma against it. Regardless, as long as it is illegal, there will always be drug dealers, regardless of punishment and there will always be a metric shit-ton of folks who buy from them. Humans love, love, love to get high. 

The U.S. drug problem is a tough one. It causing horrific issues here in the U.S. and also fueling a literal warzone down south. 

[*Nately120*]

(09-08-2022, 11:13 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'm not a big advocate for the death penalty, but harsher penalties for drug dealers is fine by me. However, it doesn't really solve the problem. Some kind of drug reform needs to happen and I don't know what that looks like. Over the years, legalization has been a growing topic online and some of their points make sense but there is obviously the engrained stigma against it. Regardless, as long as it is illegal, there will always be drug dealers, regardless of punishment and there will always be a metric shit-ton of folks who buy from them. Humans love, love, love to get high. 

The U.S. drug problem is a tough one. It causing horrific issues here in the U.S. and also fueling a literal warzone down south. 

My question is where is the justification of executing the drug dealer for selling drugs if we don't execute the drug buyer for buying drugs?

[KillerGoose]

(09-08-2022, 11:18 AM)Nately120 Wrote: My question is where is the justification of executing the drug dealer for selling drugs if we don't execute the drug buyer for buying drugs?

I think the argument falls in line of "drug buyer is sick, but drug seller is not" but I am not interested in making distinctions like that for the death penalty. I'm mostly opposed to it. People like it because humans are naturally vindictive and they think it is what the person deserves. However, it is a very inefficient process that costs a ton of money and time in comparison to life in prison. Also, the justice system gets it wrong sometimes, and finally, I am not a fan of the government being able to adjudicate life or death. 

[*Nately120*]

(09-08-2022, 11:25 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think the argument falls in line of "drug buyer is sick, but drug seller is not" but I am not interested in making distinctions like that for the death penalty. I'm mostly opposed to it. People like it because humans are naturally vindictive and they think it is what the person deserves. However, it is a very inefficient process that costs a ton of money and time in comparison to life in prison. Also, the justice system gets it wrong sometimes, and finally, I am not a fan of the government being able to adjudicate life or death. 

But drug dealers wouldn't be able to commit these death-worthy crimes if people didn't want to buy drugs.  It's just bizarre to see a crime worthy of death being placed on a transaction that involves two people and a substance.

We aren't talking about people who sell sex slaves or nuclear secrets, we're talking about a transaction for a consumable substance.  It just doesn't add up to me...and I don't do drugs, and I have no desire to do them.  Then again, I find it odd we as a society demonize people who do one sort of stimulant or depressent while simultaneously building billion dollar corporations and marketing around selling people a different ones.

Death to drug dealers!  Also, here are 1000 commercials every football Sunday about a downer that we will tell you is required for having a good time...but remember if you kill yourself with it or cause harm to others as happens all too often, it's your fault not ours!  Society...I tells ya.

[HarleyDog]

(09-08-2022, 11:13 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Drugs and drug dealers don't cause death via drugs anymore than someone who shoots himself was killed by the person who sold the gun.  What is a lethal drug?  People die from alcohol related causes all the time, yet we don't see politicians saying people who sell booze should be executed after "speedy trials."

People getting excited over the idea of the government creating new reasons to execute people is troubling in my book and I say this as someone who believes people should be free to consume whatever they like but has also never purchased an illegal drug in his life.  This is just pointless at best, and troubling at worst.

Plus you know, it opens up the idea that the government that you don't trust can say "Welp, found a bag of coke on HarleyDog....time for a speedy trial and an execution."  It just seems like an odd time for people to want to put more lethal power in the hands of the government, is all.

I was sitting in the Dr's office yesterday and there was a poster on the wall comparing different drugs to heroin. Most are aware heroin is a nasty addicting drug which kills thousands of people per year. Then you have fentanyl which is 50-100 times stronger than morphine, and Carfentanil which is 10,000 times stronger than morphine. Now there is a drug on the street called grey death, which is a cocktail of several high potency drugs. So, if a person sells these on the street and someone dies, penalties of the severest kind should be brought against such persons. 

(09-08-2022, 11:13 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I'm not a big advocate for the death penalty, but harsher penalties for drug dealers is fine by me. However, it doesn't really solve the problem. Some kind of drug reform needs to happen and I don't know what that looks like. Over the years, legalization has been a growing topic online and some of their points make sense but there is obviously the engrained stigma against it. Regardless, as long as it is illegal, there will always be drug dealers, regardless of punishment and there will always be a metric shit-ton of folks who buy from them. Humans love, love, love to get high. 

The U.S. drug problem is a tough one. It causing horrific issues here in the U.S. and also fueling a literal warzone down south. 

I understand there will always be drug dealers. Stuff like marijuana (unless laced with stronger drugs) are recreational and I pretty much put it up there with alcohol. I love beer as much as another person may like pot. I'm not really talking about these when referring to dangerous drugs. As for solving the problem, it's really tough to solve but one avenue out of many would be charging those who overdose and need narcanned with a crime instead of letting them go without repercussions. This happens where I live and I don't understand it. 

[*Nately120*]

(09-08-2022, 11:35 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I was sitting in the Dr's office yesterday and there was a poster on the wall comparing different drugs to heroin. Most are aware heroin is a nasty addicting drug which kills thousands of people per year. Then you have fentanyl which is 50-100 times stronger than morphine, and Carfentanil which is 10,000 times stronger than morphine. Now there is a drug on the street called grey death, which is a cocktail of several high potency drugs. So, if a person sells these on the street and someone dies, penalties of the severest kind should be brought against such persons. 

Well then at worst selling this stuff should follow the legal process for assisted suicide and cap off around 15-20 years.  I'll concede that it can be bad and that selling a willing adult something they use to kill themselves can fall under assisted suicide if you like, but selling anything to someone that they willingly ingest or otherwise implement in their own intentional or unintentional death doesn't constitute murder or deserve death in my mind.

Just my 2 cents.
'
Also keep in mind this goes for liberals who would want to hold gun manufacturers, tobacco companies, and trans fats and high fructose corn syrup peddling corporations liable for all the death, suicide, diabetes, cancer, and heart disease they cause.  People sell bad stuff to people who use it to harm themselves and others all the time.  

[HarleyDog]

(09-08-2022, 11:25 AM)KillerGoose Wrote:  humans are naturally vindictive

No we're not and you deserve a rusty nail to the eye for saying so.

Seriously though, your correct and it's seemingly worse over the years. Either that or I notice it more frequently as I've aged (55). I speak less and observe more than in my younger days and vindictiveness seems to have increased to borderline sadism. 

[HarleyDog]

(09-08-2022, 11:40 AM)Nately120 Wrote: '
Also keep in mind this goes for liberals who would want to hold gun manufacturers, tobacco companies, and trans fats and high fructose corn syrup peddling corporations liable for all the death, suicide, diabetes, cancer, and heart disease they cause.  People sell bad stuff to people who use it to harm themselves and others all the time.  

Unfortunately your right. Although in comparison they're not the same, eventually they would fall into the same category. Difference between the two however is one is legal, one is not. But politically, those lines don't matter. 

[KillerGoose]

(09-08-2022, 11:35 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I understand there will always be drug dealers. Stuff like marijuana (unless laced with stronger drugs) are recreational and I pretty much put it up there with alcohol. I love beer as much as another person may like pot. I'm not really talking about these when referring to dangerous drugs. As for solving the problem, it's really tough to solve but one avenue out of many would be charging those who overdose and need narcanned with a crime instead of letting them go without repercussions. This happens where I live and I don't understand it. 

That isn't going to solve the problem. Punishing those addicted to drugs won't make them stop using drugs. Hell, we already do punish drug addicts. Many of these people don't want to be addicted to drugs, but they have a horrifically tough time stopping. In my opinion, the honest answer is somewhere in the realm of what Portugal is doing, which is decriminalization of all drugs. Since decriminalizing drugs in 2000, Portugal has seen drug use decrease, largely because of their support system they have in place to assist addicts. Instead of treating addicts like criminals, they treat them like patients and view drug use as a public health issue.

I agree with their viewpoint. Not saying this is you, necessarily, but many folks in the U.S. have hard on for punishment. We have a long history of punishment not working, though. Alcohol was illegal, and now it is the most prevalent drug on the face of the earth. The punishment for breaking prohibition was a $5k fine ($86k in todays money) or a year in jail, or both. That certainly stopped no one. The current penalty for possession of heroin in Oklahoma is a felony with a minimum of two years in prison. Up to 10 years. It goes up to 20 years for the second time. That hasn't stopped anyone, heroin use is increasing. 

Anyways, drug addicts need help, not punishment. 

[*Nately120*]

(09-08-2022, 11:55 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Unfortunately your right. Although in comparison they're not the same, eventually they would fall into the same category. Difference between the two however is one is legal, one is not. But politically, those lines don't matter. 

Yeah, but the government can make them illegal regardless of how bad they are.  Other countries have banned or severely regulated stuff we consume or purchase on an everyday basis.

[*Nately120*]

(09-08-2022, 11:58 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: That isn't going to solve the problem. Punishing those addicted to drugs won't make them stop using drugs. Hell, we already do punish drug addicts. Many of these people don't want to be addicted to drugs, but they have a horrifically tough time stopping. In my opinion, the honest answer is somewhere in the realm of what Portugal is doing, which is decriminalization of all drugs. Since decriminalizing drugs in 2000, Portugal has seen drug use decrease, largely because of their support system they have in place to assist addicts. Instead of treating addicts like criminals, they treat them like patients and view drug use as a public health issue.

I agree with their viewpoint. Not saying this is you, necessarily, but many folks in the U.S. have hard on for punishment. We have a long history of punishment not working, though. Alcohol was illegal, and now it is the most prevalent drug on the face of the earth. The punishment for breaking prohibition was a $5k fine ($86k in todays money) or a year in jail, or both. That certainly stopped no one. The current penalty for possession of heroin in Oklahoma is a felony with a minimum of two years in prison. Up to 10 years. It goes up to 20 years for the second time. That hasn't stopped anyone, heroin use is increasing. 

Anyways, drug addicts need help, not punishment. 

Agreed.  Our system is basically "If you have a drug that we legally say could ruin your life, we have the duty to throw you in prison and ruin your life."  Life is weird like that and times change, as with the booze example.  From a major crime to paaaaaarrrty time in the mere span of a lifetime.

Similar I guess to how you could spend $50 on the same amount of pepper entire ships full of people would sink into the chilly grave of the ocean to procure at one point.  Well, maybe it would cost more than that, but you get my point.


EDIT - I"m rambling again, but my main point was to bring up how odd it is (actually, it's not odd at all to see him say something insane and hypocrital) to see Trump bring up executions for drug dealers at the same time he and his cohorts are pushing the narrative that the justice department is coming after and framing conservatives. 

[HarleyDog]

(09-08-2022, 12:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: EDIT - I"m rambling again, but my main point was to bring up how odd it is (actually, it's not odd at all to see him say something insane and hypocrital) to see Trump bring up executions for drug dealers at the same time he and his cohorts are pushing the narrative that the justice department is coming after and framing conservatives. 

Trump is probably using it as a cheap shot at Biden referring to his junkie kid.