South Africa parliament votes to seize white owned land

[BmorePat87]

(03-09-2018, 09:42 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: To say that they had nothing to do with it is not entirely accurate. They benefit from those injustices. Their property, their social status, those exist because of those injustices. This isn't to say I think reparative takings should happen. The reality of the situation is just not as black and white as you are making it seem.

Yea, it's not like comparing slavery 150 years ago to apartheid 25 years ago. Many of these people are still benefiting from apartheid policies that they lived under.

This should be addressed, just not in this fashion.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-09-2018, 10:11 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yea, it's not like comparing slavery 150 years ago to apartheid 25 years ago. Many of these people are still benefiting from apartheid policies that they lived under.

This should be addressed, just not in this fashion.

Mandela deserves far more credit for his attitude after taking power than anything else.  An intelligent man, he realized that retribution is counter productive and that the only way forward was to start from scratch.  Realistically, the end of the apartheid government should have been a complete bloodbath, that it wasn't is testament to Mandela's approach.  You can't move forward if you constantly seek to blame, or look down upon, your fellow citizens for the actions of their predecessors.  We would do well to internalize that lesson in this country.

[Belsnickel]

(03-09-2018, 10:17 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Mandela deserves far more credit for his attitude after taking power than anything else.  An intelligent man, he realized that retribution is counter productive and that the only way forward was to start from scratch.  Realistically, the end of the apartheid government should have been a complete bloodbath, that it wasn't is testament to Mandela's approach.  You can't move forward if you constantly seek to blame, or look down upon, your fellow citizens for the actions of their predecessors.  We would do well to internalize that lesson in this country.

Not to turn this thread in another direction, but what we have going on in this country is continued systemic racial discrimination. It has not ended, and until it does we will continue to have these discussions and controversies. But I may also be doing research on the War on Drugs, right now, and so I am a little keyed up for that convo.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-09-2018, 10:28 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not to turn this thread in another direction, but what we have going on in this country is continued systemic racial discrimination. It has not ended, and until it does we will continue to have these discussions and controversies. But I may also be doing research on the War on Drugs, right now, and so I am a little keyed up for that convo.

To some extent, to be sure.  I think you would agree that this has diminished as the years go on.  It also hasn't targeted all races at an equal rate.  None of this does anything to disprove my main point though, that to move forward you can't blame the people of the present for the actions of the past if you hope to move on.

[BmorePat87]

(03-09-2018, 10:17 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Mandela deserves far more credit for his attitude after taking power than anything else.  An intelligent man, he realized that retribution is counter productive and that the only way forward was to start from scratch.  Realistically, the end of the apartheid government should have been a complete bloodbath, that it wasn't is testament to Mandela's approach.  You can't move forward if you constantly seek to blame, or look down upon, your fellow citizens for the actions of their predecessors.  We would do well to internalize that lesson in this country.

100%

[masterpanthera_t]

(03-09-2018, 01:17 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You can’t cry over spilled milk.   And when people complain about British and Dutch colonists  it just annoys me because we can’t roll back what happened.    I do think think there is legit complaints over French and Spanish colonies.  

I don't know if anyone here is complaining about this like you're claiming, but, setting that aside, I myself haven't indulged in complaining. However, that is different than saying that British colonization isn't glorious like you're misrepresenting it to be. At the end of the day, it happened and there's no changing the past. However, I've heard nothing but justifications for why it was "right", and all the good it brought the world, when you neither really prove that without it the world could have progressed (just like many civilizations did on their own), and your misrepresentation that it progressed society when a very good argument can be made that it regressed society (not only in the form of conflict areas because of territorial disputes that the British were a main factor in creating by their drawing of maps, deliberate stoking of divisions etc., but also places where the British were directly responsible for destroying certain thriving cultures and populations). Yes, there were technological advancements in areas because the Brits brought it there, but it was not some altruistic endeavor to help these places. It was done to make plundering these nations' resources and exploit their people's labor, much more efficient. I still am not sure that if the Brits had just left some of these areas alone and instead were civil, and engaged in trade etc., that technological advancements would not have happened just from people interacting with people. So, this colonization did a lot more for advancing Britain and its growth, than it did for the colonies, and it was done so by design. 

I see that you've possibly reconsidered some of this stance based on your post that follows the post that I'm replying to, so I'll leave it at that, but I wouldn't be surprised if you revise your stance on a whim or come back and say you didn't mean it that way. Below is the post, that makes me think you may have reconsidered that stance.

Quote:By trying to create a more just present you take away personal freedoms. What happened in the past is unfortunate but it happened. Trying to go back now just takes away someone else’s stuff that had nothing to do with any injustices from the past.

All that said, this discussion about the Brits did not start until you stepped in attempting to glorify their trying to impose their way on others. I know the US is built on freedom and liberty, and your arguing of imposition of "our" values on another (when the other is not affecting your liberties), as justified reeks of hypocrisy, as I am sure you wouldn't stand for this imposition of another's values on you. I will make this my last post replying to you about the Brits in relation to this thread.

[Belsnickel]

(03-09-2018, 10:38 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: To some extent, to be sure.  I think you would agree that this has diminished as the years go on.  It also hasn't targeted all races at an equal rate.  None of this does anything to disprove my main point though, that to move forward you can't blame the people of the present for the actions of the past if you hope to move on.

You are correct in that it doesn't disprove your main point, but I don't necessarily agree that it has diminished. Explicit discrimination has diminished, but implicit racial discrimination exists to a very high degree and is constitutionally protected according to the SCOTUS.

[masterpanthera_t]

(03-09-2018, 11:53 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You are correct in that it doesn't disprove your main point, but I don't necessarily agree that it has diminished. Explicit discrimination has diminished, but implicit racial discrimination exists to a very high degree and is constitutionally protected according to the SCOTUS.

I tend to agree with this. I also wonder how some of the discrimination from a few generations ago, still affects the communities due to their lack of built up capital to provide for themselves, and the lack of access to quality education. I believe that some (or a lot) of the discrimination from generations ago has led to poverty widespread enough among the black community that their access to quality resources and education is practically impossible and this is one of the reasons that they're not able to overcome their situation. We have one in a million examples (again, it's my understanding, but maybe it's more frequent) like Ben Carson, but that's just an exception to the rule that people with limited economic means and MAINLY a lack of opportunities (quality educational infrastructure) really have a hard time getting out of that situation and it shouldn't be that surprising. I will say, the same thing about white communities in the poor regions of Appalachia too. I believe even if a community is poor, as long as you have a decent school in the community you can have people come out of the community in large numbers and turn out to be successful. But when you have poor communities with no paths (think schools), for getting out, it shouldn't be surprising that those communities keep cycling the same situation through to their future generations, black communities or Appalachian for that matter. I'm sure some of the parental situations in poor black communities are a definite factor in this problem, but exactly how much, and what role some of the discrimination in the criminal justice system plays a role in causing that situation, I don't know.

[fredtoast]

It is okay to cry over spilt milk if you are still soaked with milk.


(That sounds clever, but unfortunately it does nothing to solve the complicated issue in SA)

[StLucieBengal]

(03-09-2018, 09:42 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: To say that they had nothing to do with it is not entirely accurate. They benefit from those injustices. Their property, their social status, those exist because of those injustices. This isn't to say I think reparative takings should happen. The reality of the situation is just not as black and white as you are making it seem.

So do you feel you personally benefit from slavery here in the US? Do You owe your current wealth, career, and status to slavery?

The reality is no one can go back in time and change things. Our lives are what we make out of them. It certainly sucks for anyone who got dealt a bad deal. But over history bad deals have been dealt across the bird at one time or another.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-09-2018, 11:17 AM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I don't know if anyone here is complaining about this like you're claiming, but, setting that aside, I myself haven't indulged in complaining. However, that is different than saying that British colonization isn't glorious like you're misrepresenting it to be. At the end of the day, it happened and there's no changing the past. However, I've heard nothing but justifications for why it was "right", and all the good it brought the world, when you neither really prove that without it the world could have progressed (just like many civilizations did on their own), and your misrepresentation that it progressed society when a very good argument can be made that it regressed society (not only in the form of conflict areas because of territorial disputes that the British were a main factor in creating by their drawing of maps, deliberate stoking of divisions etc., but also places where the British were directly responsible for destroying certain thriving cultures and populations). Yes, there were technological advancements in areas because the Brits brought it there, but it was not some altruistic endeavor to help these places. It was done to make plundering these nations' resources and exploit their people's labor, much more efficient. I still am not sure that if the Brits had just left some of these areas alone and instead were civil, and engaged in trade etc., that technological advancements would not have happened just from people interacting with people. So, this colonization did a lot more for advancing Britain and its growth, than it did for the colonies, and it was done so by design. 

I see that you've possibly reconsidered some of this stance based on your post that follows the post that I'm replying to, so I'll leave it at that, but I wouldn't be surprised if you revise your stance on a whim or come back and say you didn't mean it that way. Below is the post, that makes me think you may have reconsidered that stance.



All that said, this discussion about the Brits did not start until you stepped in attempting to glorify their trying to impose their way on others. I know the US is built on freedom and liberty, and your arguing of imposition of "our" values on another (when the other is not affecting your liberties), as justified reeks of hypocrisy, as I am sure you wouldn't stand for this imposition of another's values on you. I will make this my last post replying to you about the Brits in relation to this thread.

I haven’t reconsidered my position. It’s he same position I just used nicer language.

The overall colony tone on this board is often to bash them and that is where the thread went. I believe it’s lazy to just blame the colonists. It’s not an easy discussion and really it comes down to whether you favor progress and moderization over just letting people do whatever. Educated and ambitious people over history have made their hay by being aggressive. The colonists were no different and they took a massive risk.

For instance, If we were to colonize Mars, I would hope we moved in the similar manner the British did years ago. Especially if the natives were uneducated bushmen.

I love the British colonization, they were true pioneers spreading greatness. I have always felt this way and I am aware this is a controversial topic. But colonies were going to happen either way and I am glad ours was British.

Thanks for the chat

[Belsnickel]

(03-09-2018, 01:41 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So do you feel you personally benefit from slavery here in the US? Do You owe your current wealth, career, and status to slavery?

The reality is no one can go back in time and change things. Our lives are what we make out of them. It certainly sucks for anyone who got dealt a bad deal. But over history bad deals have been dealt across the bird at one time or another.

Not slavery, for a number of reasons, but I do owe my station in life in part to the systemic discrimination against people of color in this country.

[Belsnickel]

(03-09-2018, 12:18 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I tend to agree with this. I also wonder how some of the discrimination from a few generations ago, still affects the communities due to their lack of built up capital to provide for themselves, and the lack of access to quality education. I believe that some (or a lot) of the discrimination from generations ago has led to poverty widespread enough among the black community that their access to quality resources and education is practically impossible and this is one of the reasons that they're not able to overcome their situation. We have one in a million examples (again, it's my understanding, but maybe it's more frequent) like Ben Carson, but that's just an exception to the rule that people with limited economic means and MAINLY a lack of opportunities (quality educational infrastructure) really have a hard time getting out of that situation and it shouldn't be that surprising. I will say, the same thing about white communities in the poor regions of Appalachia too. I believe even if a community is poor, as long as you have a decent school in the community you can have people come out of the community in large numbers and turn out to be successful. But when you have poor communities with no paths (think schools), for getting out, it shouldn't be surprising that those communities keep cycling the same situation through to their future generations, black communities or Appalachian for that matter. I'm sure some of the parental situations in poor black communities are a definite factor in this problem, but exactly how much, and what role some of the discrimination in the criminal justice system plays a role in causing that situation, I don't know.

I could get into a discussion about how the elites have made sure to drive a wedge between the races in this country whenever the poor white and poor black communities have started to come together and work to better their position. But that takes this thread more off topic than I already have taken it, so I'll stop there.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-09-2018, 02:36 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not slavery, for a number of reasons, but I do owe my station in life in part to the systemic discrimination against people of color in this country.

Well I believe that’s crazy but I admire your consistency. Since you don’t believe in reparations what do you plan on doing about this injustice? Just talk about it?

[Benton]

(03-09-2018, 04:13 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well I believe  that’s crazy but I admire your consistency.   Since you don’t believe in reparations what do you plan on doing about this injustice?  Just talk about it?

That's an important part of it.

Take Indians. When I was a kid, we learned Native Americans welcomed Puritan settlers to their world, gave them all their possessions and decided arbitrarily to move west, many along the Trail of Tears (that was probably only brought up sine the trail runs through my area). The military provided escorts, but many Indians still died anyway.

Which, of course, isn't what happened.

We re-wrote that history because it's no fun explaining to a kid that their school sits on land that belonged to somebody else, and the government that's supposed to protect them wiped out those original people because they wanted that dirt. 

It's no different with slavery. When we support the view that we were just helping Africans we re-write the history of kidnapping, forcing them into labor, and sometimes committing acts of violence  against them.

[Belsnickel]

(03-09-2018, 04:13 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well I believe that’s crazy but I admire your consistency. Since you don’t believe in reparations what do you plan on doing about this injustice? Just talk about it?

In all seriousness, why do you think I am working on a degree in policy? I hope to work and make things better. That's what I am passionate about in life. I like to help people, improve their lives, and one way I can do that is examine policies and find ways to make them better. Working with lawmakers to pass legislation that will benefit everyone.

Working to craft policies that help create a more equitable and just society is something that I am going to do.

[Dill]

(03-09-2018, 01:41 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So do you feel you personally benefit from slavery here in the US?  Do You owe your current wealth, career, and status to slavery?  

The reality is no one can go back in time and change things.   Our lives are what we make out of them.   It certainly sucks for anyone who got dealt a bad deal.   But over history bad deals have been dealt across the bird at one time or another.

There are other questions that need to be settled before anyone has a prayer of reasonably deciding whether we, in the 21st century, still benefit from 19th century slavery.

And the first might be: Do ANY of us now, in the 21st century, benefit from the actions of 19th-century Americans across the board--the land which they acquired, the railroads they laid, the wars they fought, the divisions of labor they settled upon, the investments they chose to make, the institutions (like land grant universities) they founded, the technology they developed and applied?  

If the answer to that question is "No. I owe my current wealth, career and status solely to my own 'choices,'"  then we must examine whether that is really possible.  E.g., if you got a degree from a university you could afford because it was public, and that degree helped you "create wealth," would you say the "choice" of our forefathers to provide citizens with that option played no role in your "wealth creation"? We could multiply examples with your investments or private business, etc.

If the answer is "Yes, most everything I have really achieved would be impossible without the already existing, above described civilization whose benefits I have inherited and make good use of," then we have made a useful step toward answering the question of whether any of us still benefits from slavery.

And this is not off topic. How the ANC views the question of land distribution in South Africa is directly related to how they view inherited political arrangements, and the continuing right of white farmers to benefit from that unequal inheritance.  Determining how those original arrangements were arrived at is not simply "blaming."  And for the record, past wrongs can be righted, at least partially. But first they have to be recognized.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-09-2018, 05:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: In all seriousness, why do you think I am working on a degree in policy? I hope to work and make things better. That's what I am passionate about in life. I like to help people, improve their lives, and one way I can do that is examine policies and find ways to make them better. Working with lawmakers to pass legislation that will benefit everyone.

Working to craft policies that help create a more equitable and just society is something that I am going to do.

I have no idea what you are doing. All I know is you work or worked for a public university and wanted to move to Germany and speak German.

I don’t track your life on here, not because I am not interested.... it’s just not my business. I just speak with you on various topics when they come up.

Good for you on your pursuits. You no doubt have good intentions.

[fredtoast]

(03-09-2018, 07:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I don’t track your life on here, not because I am not interested.... it’s just not my business. 

then no need to ask a question like this, right?

(03-09-2018, 04:13 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Since you don’t believe in reparations what do you plan on doing about this injustice?  Just talk about it?

[StLucieBengal]

(03-09-2018, 05:17 PM)Benton Wrote: That's an important part of it.

Take Indians. When I was a kid, we learned Native Americans welcomed Puritan settlers to their world, gave them all their possessions and decided arbitrarily to move west, many along the Trail of Tears (that was probably only brought up sine the trail runs through my area). The military provided escorts, but many Indians still died anyway.

Which, of course, isn't what happened.

We re-wrote that history because it's no fun explaining to a kid that their school sits on land that belonged to somebody else, and the government that's supposed to protect them wiped out those original people because they wanted that dirt. 

It's no different with slavery. When we support the view that we were just helping Africans we re-write the history of kidnapping, forcing them into labor, and sometimes committing acts of violence  against them.

I agree we should know what happened. And I am fully aware some of it was bad. However I honestly don’t concern myself with it because all I can control is how I conduct myself. I don’t treat anyone differently because everyone has the same money to spend.

What we can control is the crazy stuff that happens now to people like Slavery and population control directed at particular miniorities. This is where I feel my time is best spent instead of crying over something I can do nothing about except show some empathy.