Target removes gender based signage for kids

[*bfine32*]

(08-13-2015, 11:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Again you missed the point.

He wasn't saying the discussion should not be required.  He was saying the explanation of such a simple point should not be required in order for you to understand what we were talking about.

I am starting to see a pattern here.

Me too.

You keep adding parameters.

[*bfine32*]

(08-13-2015, 11:56 AM)djs7685 Wrote: No shit

I guess when you don't have much of a legitimate rebuttal, the only thing you can do is make a smartass comment that's intentionally avoiding the basis of the post.

So, do you think there could just be a LITTLE bit of a difference between going to school/not going to school and eating chicken wings/not eating chicken wings?

Sure there's adifference between those 2; I was just unaware that that was the limits of the discussion. Especially when I see posts such as I let my children has all the choices they want.

[djs7685]

(08-13-2015, 12:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure there's adifference between those 2; I was just unaware that that was the limits of the discussion. Especially when I see posts such as I let my children has all the choices they want.

Fred says "I let my children have the option to do whatever they'd like in life"

How most rational people in a debate take that sentence: Fred lets his children make their own decisions such as allowing his daughters to play sports, eat chicken wings, play with a GI Joe, and maybe even do other "manly" things if they please.

How Bfine takes that sentence: OMG YOU GAVE YOUR DAUGHTER THE OPTION OF MURDERING POLICE OFFICERS AND JOINING ISIS?!?!?

[*bfine32*]

(08-13-2015, 12:18 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Fred says "I let my children have the option to do whatever they'd like in life"

I was actually replying to this quote. The message is slightly different:

fredtoast Wrote:Refusing to let them have all the choices they want is oppression.

I simply provided an example of how I am not "oppressing" them if i establish some boundries.

djs7685 Wrote:How Bfine takes that sentence: OMG YOU GAVE YOUR DAUGHTER THE OPTION OF MURDERING POLICE OFFICERS AND JOINING ISIS?!?!?

Who came in 2nd in your drama class?

[djs7685]

(08-13-2015, 12:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I was actually replying to this quote. The message is slightly different:



I simply provided an example of how I am not "oppressing" them if i establish some boundries.



Who came in 2nd in your drama class?

1. I do agree that having some boundaries are necessary. However, most of my boundaries begin and end with the law. I don't encourage my kids to do illegal things or things that are generally harmful (I smoked for 8-ish years in the past but I will strongly urge my children to not pick up that habit). Other things, such as getting their education, are other no brainers in my eyes. Fred was arguing against someone that was saying that our girls will "be boys" if they play certain sports, drink beer, and eat chicken wings. You then brought up a scenario about forcing your kids to go to school, and I'M the one being dramatic? Come on now, you know exactly what Fred was arguing against with the oppression statement.

2. I like how you're probably one of the most condescending and sarcastic people on the boards, yet you whine when others give you similar treatment. I was overexaggerating my point, but yes, you did take it to an extreme that it didn't need to go to. Nobody here has made the stupid statement that you should let your kids do literally ANYTHING. Somebody, however, has made the stupid statement that my girls will "be boys" if they play certain sports.

[Vas Deferens]

(08-13-2015, 02:37 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I don't think any of you know the definition of a proper lady.  

It doesn't mean be a submissive.  

It's quite comical that you all assume that somehow I am oppressing my kids.

I think you're right.  We don't.  Please advise.  What is a proper lady?  

[BmorePat87]

(08-13-2015, 01:52 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes you did.  As soon as you said you were doing it the proper way then that meant other people's methods were improper.

BTW you are the one doing it wrong. Raising your girls to believe that they are limited in what they can do is poor parenting.  You are raising them to be submissive victims.  They are being taught that they can never do the same things as boys.  And that is juts sad. 

I am raising my girls to belueve that they can do whatever they want.  If they want to just do "rirly things" then that is fine.  But they are going to be strong and confident that they can do whatever they want while your girls will be timid, weak, and afraid to try anything that you tell them is "improper".

But I guess that is pretty common way of doing things among men like you who are intimidated by women with confidence.

Considering that this is a thread on gender restrictive toys and that this is a response to someone saying he raises his girls to be "proper ladies", which includes having them play with "girl toys", how does someone read this and think Fred isn't discussing gender stereotypes and that he is saying his kids can do whatever they want?

[StLucieBengal]

(08-13-2015, 09:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well you said you wouldn't raise a lady (or a "proper girl") who chugs beer and throws down wings.  I wondered what that meant of my wife and friends who DO do that.


You are quite good at giving labels to people and then not defining what the heck you mean by them or defending your label of them other than to call them that again.  Are you secretly Donald Trump?

Is your wife chugging beer and slurping down wings like a wildebeast? Or like a civilized member of society?

[Vas Deferens]

(08-13-2015, 05:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Is your wife chugging beer and slurping down wings like a wildebeast?  Or like a civilized member of society?

Is there a reason you wont tell us what a 'proper woman' is?  Still waiting on that.

[StLucieBengal]

(08-13-2015, 11:40 AM)bfine32 Wrote: My bad I simply read posts such as the one below and did not realize we we restricting it to sexual stereotypes:


As to the restricted topic: Yes, I did instill some gender stereotypes in my children; I must admit it is limited as I had only boys.

For instance,  along while back my son had his girlfriend over once. When it was time to go home, he walked her to the door and said bye. That was the last time he didn't escort her to the car or walk her home if she were on foot. If he was returning from her house, the escort was not required. Not sure if that meant the parents were raising the girl to be weak or not.

This would be referred to as raising a proper gentlemen.

[GMDino]

(08-13-2015, 05:26 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: This would be referred to as raising a proper gentlemen.

Maybe he can date your daughter!

As long as he doesn't eat like a wildebeest.  

[StLucieBengal]

I can't believe I have to actually explain this.....

Proper Girls:

Mom sets the example on how to conduct themselves, how they dress, how they act in private and public, how they speak, etc.

Dad sets the example on how boys should treat them, opening doors, pulling out chairs, listening to them without interruption, the way they are spoken to by the opposite sex.

Be more accepting rather than judgemental of others. Constructive criticisms are ok if properly framed. Be able to see others limitations for what they are, and offer them kindness.

Be gentle, learn to have that gentle touch in all aspects of life. ... And don't be afraid of being vulnerable, it's part of life and no matter how tough you act you will never avoid getting hurt.

----------

Now in relation to countless comments.

Clothing: they wear what mom wears. They model her as they should. So they have pants and shorts they play outside in, they also have dresses when we go out. ** do they wear dresses all the time: NO, but that's what they like to wear because that's what mom wears **

Toys: they like dolls, stuffed animals, electronics and jigsaw puzzles.

Activities: oldest- violin and music. Youngest - Rythmic gymnastics and other active things. They often will run with me for as long as they can when I exercise. I will do a mini run for them and take them home then finish. Youngest wants to learn how to shoot. But wife doesnt like that at all as 5 is not the age we want to encourage that, we have looked into letting her try archery. (Still in discussion and we are trying to figure out when she should try and if she has time)

Education: they will do standard things. We will augment as needed with what we feel isn't being addressed. And we will encourage them in areas they are excited about, currently oldest wants to be a doctor and youngest want to be an attorney. Mind you they are 7 and 5.

Social life: they have friends, our policy is that we personally meet the friends parents. So we can see what to expect. A lot of their friends are in their activities or from church. Which we encourage.

Not sure if I left anything out.

[StLucieBengal]

(08-13-2015, 02:00 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Considering that this is a thread on gender restrictive toys and that this is a response to someone saying he raises his girls to be "proper ladies", which includes having them play with "girl toys", how does someone read this and think Fred isn't discussing gender stereotypes and that he is saying his kids can do whatever they want?

So the only way for a girl to be confident is to play with GI Joe's and Hotwheels? And In turn does a boy become more confident by playing with Barbie dolls?

[fredtoast]

(08-13-2015, 06:35 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So the only way for a girl to be confident is to play with GI Joe's and Hotwheels?  And In turn does a boy become more confident by playing with Barbie dolls?

No.  the only way to be confident is to tell them they have a choice and are not limited by being a girl.

it is horrible to tell a girl she can not play football because that is not "proper".

[fredtoast]

(08-13-2015, 06:25 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I can't believe I have to actually explain this.....

Proper Girls:

Mom sets the example on how to conduct themselves,  how they dress, how they act in private and public, how they speak, etc.

You are saying nothing here.  All you are saying is "A proper girl acts properly".  You can't define a term by using that term.

Why is it improper for a girl to play football?  Why are you so offended by a girl who wants to play an aggressive game?  Why are you so afraid and threatened by those type of women?

[StLucieBengal]

(08-13-2015, 07:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are saying nothing here.  All you are saying is "A proper girl acts properly".  You can't define a term by using that term.

Why is it improper for a girl to play football?  Why are you so offended by a girl who wants to play an aggressive game?  Why are you so afraid and threatened by those type of women?

You all are the ones who jumped to assume that proper girls meant that I said your ways were wrong.

When girls play football for instance, they lose their femininity. They lose their gentleness. Part of being a woman is being gentle and having a soft touch. These are things that women excel. Can a guy be this way? Yes .... But my girls want to be just like their mom, their mom is gentle, feminine, and conducts herself as such.

I don't care what other girls do, they aren't my girls. If my girls wanted to play an aggressive sport then they can play one with other girls. I don't believe in Co-Ed competitive sports. When I was young I played in a co-ed basketball league with our school. The girls got abused..... Was it because we were attacking women... No.... It's because boys play sports at a much more aggressive level than girls.

Maybe modern boys have been made "sensitive" to the point that women can beat them now . But I don't remember that, I also remember a girls father who yelled at me for elbowing his daughter in the face after a rebound. I didn't do it on purpose, but he was only standing up for his kid, I don't blame him or his reaction. It's the league/schools who allowed this to happen.

[fredtoast]

(08-13-2015, 07:51 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You all are the ones who jumped to assume that proper girls meant that I said your ways were wrong.    

There is not "jumping to conclusion".  If a girl is not proper then that means she is "improper".  


Girls can play football and still be sensitive.  Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[GMDino]

(08-13-2015, 06:25 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I can't believe I have to actually explain this.....

Proper Girls:

Mom sets the example on how to conduct themselves,  how they dress, how they act in private and public, how they speak, etc.

Dad sets the example on how boys should treat them, opening doors, pulling out chairs, listening to them without interruption, the way they are spoken to by the opposite sex.  

Be more accepting rather than judgemental of others.  Constructive criticisms are ok if properly framed.  Be able to see others limitations for what they are, and offer them kindness.  

Be gentle, learn to have that gentle touch in all aspects of life. ...  And don't be afraid of being vulnerable,  it's part of life and no matter how tough you act you will never avoid getting hurt.  

----------

Now in relation to countless comments.  

Clothing:  they wear what mom wears.   They model her as they should.  So they have pants and shorts they play outside in, they also have dresses when we go out.  ** do they wear dresses all the time: NO, but that's what they like to wear because that's what mom wears **

Toys: they like dolls, stuffed animals, electronics and jigsaw puzzles.  

Activities: oldest- violin and music.   Youngest - Rythmic gymnastics and other active things.  They often will run with me for as long as they can when I exercise.   I will do a mini run for them and take them home then finish.   Youngest wants to learn how to shoot.   But wife doesnt like that at all as 5 is not the age we want to encourage that, we have looked into letting her try archery. (Still in discussion and we are trying to figure out when she should try and if she has time)

Education: they will do standard things.   We will augment as needed with what we feel isn't being addressed.    And we will encourage them in areas they are excited about, currently oldest wants to be a doctor and youngest want to be an attorney.  Mind you they are 7 and 5.  

Social life: they have friends, our policy is that we personally meet the friends parents.  So we can see what to expect.  A lot of their friends are in their activities or from church.   Which we encourage.

Not sure if I left anything out.

That's no "raising proper girls".  That's girls copying their mother.

They'll outgrow that soon enough.  Then we'll see how your "raising proper girls" changes.

[*bfine32*]

(08-13-2015, 07:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why is it improper for a girl to play football? 

Proper: conforming to established standards of behavior or manners; correct or decorous.

[StLucieBengal]

(08-13-2015, 08:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is not "jumping to conclusion".  If a girl is not proper then that means she is "improper".  


Girls can play football and still be sensitive.  Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Yes because playing a violent game really develops sensitivity. Maybe that's why men have always been so sensitive over the years.

Maybe you want your daughter to be violent and aggressive but that's not for us. To each their own