(06-30-2016, 01:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Restrict immigration from the ME especially like places from Syria where they cannot be truly vetted.Also increase efforts on stopping illegal immigration and stricter regulations om those that are here illegally.
What is your answer or do you have another question?
The Boston Marathon bombers were from Russia if I'm remembering right. The hatchet guy in New York was from New York. The Orlando shooter was born here. The San Bernidino shooter was born in Chicago (his wife was from Saudi Arabia). The Chattanooga shooter grew up here since he was 6.
There could be several refugees from Syria that have done terrorist acts here, but I can't think of any. The recent (last 5-10 years) ones that come to mind are from home grown terrorists, not immigrants. Restricting immigration from the Middle East would likely reduce the populations of non-extremist Muslims, while having no effect on — or possibly increasing — the ones we have here that are natural born citizens.
(06-30-2016, 01:49 PM)Benton Wrote: The Boston Marathon bombers were from Russia if I'm remembering right. The hatchet guy in New York was from New York. The Orlando shooter was born here. The San Bernidino shooter was born in Chicago (his wife was from Saudi Arabia). The Chattanooga shooter grew up here since he was 6.
There could be several refugees from Syria that have done terrorist acts here, but I can't think of any. The recent (last 5-10 years) ones that come to mind are from home grown terrorists, not immigrants. Restricting immigration from the Middle East would likely reduce the populations of non-extremist Muslims, while having no effect on — or possibly increasing — the ones we have here that are natural born citizens.
...and the terrorists referenced in this thread were immigrants. I've stated before that I disagree with the mentality that we "already have it here, so why try to stop it from coming here."
There may soon come a time where we have to choose between liberties and securities. It just depends on which one you are in more favor of.
(06-30-2016, 01:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ...and the terrorists referenced in this thread were immigrants. I've stated before that I disagree with the mentality that we "already have it here, so why try to stop it from coming here."
There may soon come a time where we have to choose between liberties and securities. It just depends on which one you are in more favor of.
I'll pose the same question: What is your plan?
I thought these ones were from Russia and other Asian countries? How does stopping middle eastern immigration keep these guys out?
(06-30-2016, 01:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ...and the terrorists referenced in this thread were immigrants.
...from Russia. You're suggesting restricting immigration from the Middle East.
I'm not sure what I'm missing there.
If we're in a conflict with people from the geographic region of England — and had attacks on us from people living in nearby Ireland — would we impose immigration restrictions on people from Australia?
Quote:I've stated before that I disagree with the mentality that we "already have it here, so why try to stop it from coming here."
I guess what I'm not understanding is, we're already doing a good job of stopping it from coming here. What we're struggling with is stopping it from starting here. If most of the major attacks have been from U.S. citizens, why are some people saying the problem is immigration? If one 1-of-12 attacks is by an immigrant, is our best use of resources fixing 1 attack, or 11?
Quote:There may soon come a time where we have to choose between liberties and securities. It just depends on which one you are in more favor of.
I'll pose the same question: What is your plan?
We made that choice. The Patriot Act, and all that followed. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree with similar ideas that to keep people safe, you have to assume everyone is out to overthrow America.
As far as my plan, it's the same as I've advocated for years. The military upper management has been in place since Bush, and many of the more influential guys since Reagan. They need to be replaced. There's too much abuse. It's shrunk our head count every year (just about) since WWII while increasing how much we spend. It's basically a well armed logistics service that benefits a handful of companies.
Once we've got a competent military command, they'll start utilizing the data from our intelligence community. Which is usually pretty accurate, but by the time it goes through the chain of command and across a few desks, it gets tweaked to support what the current direction of CentComm wants, which is determined by military command (basically, you've got military leadership telling itself what to tell itself).
On top of that, just expanding our intelligence network, as opposed to expanding the bureaucracy that slows it down. That way when we do have a suspect, they can track down whether it's legitimate or not, instead of a name setting in a file for years while it waits for a followup.
(06-30-2016, 02:30 PM)Au165 Wrote: I thought these ones were from Russia and other Asian countries? How does stopping middle eastern immigration keep these guys out?
I've heard one was from Russia and the exact origin of the others is unknown. One report has one coming from Raqqa. Influences come from the Middle-East; although they may not be the ones actually "pulling the trigger". You can disagree with that if you wish; that's your right.
(06-30-2016, 03:14 PM)Benton Wrote: ...from Russia. You're suggesting restricting immigration from the Middle East.
I'm not sure what I'm missing there.
If we're in a conflict with people from the geographic region of England — and had attacks on us from people living in nearby Ireland — would we impose immigration restrictions on people from Australia?
I guess what I'm not understanding is, we're already doing a good job of stopping it from coming here. What we're struggling with is stopping it from starting here. If most of the major attacks have been from U.S. citizens, why are some people saying the problem is immigration? If one 1-of-12 attacks is by an immigrant, is our best use of resources fixing 1 attack, or 11?
We made that choice. The Patriot Act, and all that followed. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree with similar ideas that to keep people safe, you have to assume everyone is out to overthrow America.
As far as my plan, it's the same as I've advocated for years. The military upper management has been in place since Bush, and many of the more influential guys since Reagan. They need to be replaced. There's too much abuse. It's shrunk our head count every year (just about) since WWII while increasing how much we spend. It's basically a well armed logistics service that benefits a handful of companies.
Once we've got a competent military command, they'll start utilizing the data from our intelligence community. Which is usually pretty accurate, but by the time it goes through the chain of command and across a few desks, it gets tweaked to support what the current direction of CentComm wants, which is determined by military command (basically, you've got military leadership telling itself what to tell itself).
On top of that, just expanding our intelligence network, as opposed to expanding the bureaucracy that slows it down. That way when we do have a suspect, they can track down whether it's legitimate or not, instead of a name setting in a file for years while it waits for a followup.
[identity of Terrorist]The pro-government Yeni Safak newspaper said the Russian bomber was from Dagestan, which borders Chechnya, where Moscow has led two wars against separatists and religious militants since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.
Turkey's Hurriyet newspaper named him as Osman Vadinov and said he had come from Raqqa, the heart of Islamic State-controlled territory in Syria. The Russian interior ministry said it was checking information about Vadinov.[/quote]
Like I said above, if you don't think increased immigration from the ME is a problem; that's your choice. I'm just providing an opinion from someone who has seen behind the curtain.
What is wrong with restricting immigration from the ME while those in question here are fully vetted? The same folks that say we can't help everyone are the same that say we can let in everyone. Kinda conflicts.
(06-30-2016, 03:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [identity of Terrorist]The pro-government Yeni Safak newspaper said the Russian bomber was from Dagestan, which borders Chechnya, where Moscow has led two wars against separatists and religious militants since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.
Turkey's Hurriyet newspaper named him as Osman Vadinov and said he had come from Raqqa, the heart of Islamic State-controlled territory in Syria. The Russian interior ministry said it was checking information about Vadinov.
And he's still a Russian citizen. So I'm still not following why it's important to restrict immigration from the Middle East.
Quote:Like I said above, if you don't think increased immigration from the ME is a problem; that's your choice. I'm just providing an opinion from someone who has seen behind the curtain.
What is wrong with restricting immigration from the ME while those in question here are fully vetted? The same folks that say we can't help everyone are the same that say we can let in everyone. Kinda conflicts.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what curtain you're referring to. But as to the last part, what question? If they're a terrorist? Considering we can't answer that question for our own folks because of a lack of resources, I don't think we'll get too many answers for those coming from other countries (which, apparently is now Russia).
And I don't see a conflict. I'm in favor of less involvement in other countries — I'm an isolationist — hich has nothing to do with immigration.
(06-30-2016, 03:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've heard one was from Russia and the exact origin of the others is unknown. One report has one coming from Raqqa. Influences come from the Middle-East; although they may not be the ones actually "pulling the trigger". You can disagree with that if you wish; that's your right.
They were from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan none of which are part of the middle east, so back to the original question of what does a restricted ME immigration policy have to do with this specific incident?
(06-30-2016, 04:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: They were from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan none of which are part of the middle east, so back to the original question of what does a restricted ME immigration policy have to do with this specific incident?
How did they get to Russia?
Immigrant questionnaire:
Where are you coming from: Russia
Were you born in that country: (If yes skip to next part, if no continue below)?
How long have you been a citizen of that country?
What country did you come from(Continue with the above questions until you get to the country of your birth then skip to the next part)?
(06-30-2016, 03:45 PM)Benton Wrote: And he's still a Russian citizen. So I'm still not following why it's important to restrict immigration from the Middle East.
I'm not sure what curtain you're referring to. But as to the last part, what question? If they're a terrorist? Considering we can't answer that question for our own folks because of a lack of resources, I don't think we'll get too many answers for those coming from other countries (which, apparently is now Russia).
And I don't see a conflict. I'm in favor of less involvement in other countries — I'm an isolationist — hich has nothing to do with immigration.
Like i said: If you don't think worldwide terror is originating from the ME, that's your choice.
(06-30-2016, 04:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How did they get to Russia?
Immigrant questionnaire:
Where are you coming from: Russia
Were you born in that country: (If yes skip to next part, if no continue below)?
How long have you been a citizen of that country?
What country did you come from(Continue with the above questions until you get to the country of your birth then skip to the next part)?
Huh, the reports I have seen is they are From there as in that is their nationality. The rest of your post has nothing to do with anything. If they are nationals of the countries listed it once again goes to the point that restricting ME immigration has no bearing on this incident.
(06-30-2016, 04:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: Huh, the reports I have seen is they are From there as in that is their nationality. The rest of your post has nothing to do with anything. If they are nationals of the countries listed it once again goes to the point that restricting ME immigration has no bearing on this incident.
If you are from the ME and you immigrate to America through another country it is still immigration from the ME. As I have said there are no final reports on where the Terrorists are "from"; however, the report I quote earlier has one originating from Raqqa.
As I said: If you think migration from the ME is not a contributing factor to Terror worldwide it is your choice. You are not alone in this POV, nor am I alone in thinking it is an issue. Who is right? Who knows.
(06-30-2016, 04:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you are from the ME and you immigrate to America through another country it is still immigration from the ME. As I have said there are no final reports on where the Terrorists are "from"; however, the report I quote earlier has one originating from Raqqa.
What is this report? I have seen they came by way of Raqqa, but all reports point to them being of Russian/ former USSR country decent.
Do we need to restrict immigration from Russia as well?
(06-30-2016, 04:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How did they get to Russia?
Immigrant questionnaire:
Where are you coming from: Russia
Were you born in that country: (If yes skip to next part, if no continue below)?
How long have you been a citizen of that country?
What country did you come from(Continue with the above questions until you get to the country of your birth then skip to the next part)?
Were they immigrants to Russia? Everything I've read just has them as Russian citizens.
Sort of like how nearly all of the U.S. terrorist attacks have been done by U.S. citizens, not immigrants.
(06-30-2016, 04:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Like i said: If you don't think worldwide terror is originating from the ME, that's your choice.
That's not what I said and what you're advocating would not have stopped any of the recent terror attacks here.
You're changing the tire when the car is out of gas.
(06-30-2016, 04:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: What is this report? I have seen they came by way of Raqqa, but all reports point to them being of Russian/ former USSR country decent.
Do we need to restrict immigration from Russia as well?
So either way they came through the ME or from the ME.
Yes, we should restrict any Russian immigration that comes by way of Syria,
(06-30-2016, 04:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So either way they came through the ME or from the ME.
Yes, we should restrict any Russian immigration that comes by way of Syria,
They went by way of Syria because it was easy to not get flagged with the immigration issues they were having. The issue is if they would come into America without ever going to Syria then you got nothing.
The by way thing already gets you flagged for further inspection, but once again banning nationals from ME countries would do nothing in this incident. It's okay to admit you were wrong.
(06-30-2016, 04:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: What is this report? I have seen they came by way of Raqqa, but all reports point to them being of Russian/ former USSR country decent.
Do we need to restrict immigration from Russia as well?
(06-30-2016, 05:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: Larry quoted it in post 47 but provided no link.
USA Today reported from a source in Turkey in the last hour they are Nationals of the countries I mentioned. All of which are former USSR countries not ME countries.
"Turkish authorities say the three suicide bombers who carried out the deadly attack on Istanbul's main airport were nationals of Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan."
(06-30-2016, 04:57 PM)Benton Wrote: Were they immigrants to Russia? Everything I've read just has them as Russian citizens.
Sort of like how nearly all of the U.S. terrorist attacks have been done by U.S. citizens, not immigrants.
That's not what I said and what you're advocating would not have stopped any of the recent terror attacks here.
You're changing the tire when the car is out of gas.
The reports I have read (nothing final) is they came from Raqqa. I don't see whether they are from there or migrated to there before crossing into Turkey matters in the least unless folks are trying to deflect from the issue of Terror originating from the ME.
So, if you can point to Terror activity elsewhere and use it as a foresight for something that could happen here: "you're changing the tire on a car out of gas'" Assuming you would prefer to top off the car and ignore the flat.
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