The Bodine Witch Hunt

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2016, 07:18 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Guycheck, Livings, Roland, and Andrews started for the Bengals (some for years) and the years they started didn't make them suck any less on the field nor did their draft position.

That is exactly what I have been trying to tell you.  Paul was given shit for talent to work with.

Ghiaciuc was given two full seasons as the starter and it is possible he would have been replaced sooner if Cook had not gotten injured in '08.

The only two years Roland started were Andre Smiths first two seasons when he struggled with injuries.

Livings started for 3 years, but Paul was benching him in favor of Mathis for part of the '09 season until Mathis got injured.  And when he left the Bengals he was signed to be a starter for the Cowboys.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-02-2016, 07:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No one.

That is the point I am trying to get you to understand.  Bodine was never given the chance to sit a couple of years to learn the position like Braham.

Well, "the paucity of talent" is why Bodine has done more in his career compared to Braham up to this point.  Of course he has done more than Braham because he was given the job and as you admit has competed with "no one" for the job.  Alexander wasn't the Oline coach in 1994, otherwise he may have just handed Braham the job like he did with Bodine which would have completely undermined your greatest argument for Bodine. 

Who is responsible for scouting the Olinemen the Bengals draft?  Paul Alexander.  Otis Hudson thought he would be an UDFA.  Paul made him a 5th round pick.  Great scouting? Or greatest scouting?

[TGISunday]

Direct question to the PA PR club:

Why does a reporter's question talking about a draft pick's ability to develop into a starter warrant a lecture about another, previously unmentioned player?

[SunsetBengal]

(05-02-2016, 07:53 PM)TGISunday Wrote: Direct question to the PA PR club:

Why does a reporter's question talking about a draft pick's ability to develop into a starter warrant a lecture about another, previously unmentioned player?

Because that player that was previously unmentioned, was hand picked by the coach, and the ability to become a starter is directly linked to replacing that "hand picked" coaches' favorite.

Tells me that Alexander is feeling the pressure for Bodine to produce, or hit the road.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-02-2016, 07:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is exactly what I have been trying to tell you.  Paul was given shit for talent to work with.

Ghiaciuc was given two full seasons as the starter and it is possible he would have been replaced sooner if Cook had not gotten injured in '08.

The only two years Roland started were Andre Smiths first two seasons when he struggled with injuries.

Livings started for 3 years, but Paul was benching him in favor of Mathis for part of the '09 season until Mathis got injured.  And when he left the Bengals he was signed to be a starter for the Cowboys.

Paul is responsible for scouting the shit he is given.  Whomever was involved with the decision to franchise tag Stacy Andrews needs to be fired retroactively.

[*jason*]

(04-30-2016, 11:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It was not an op-ed piece.  It quoted multiple sources that praised PA.

But thanks for proving how the PA haters criticize things they know absolutely nothing about.  More points for my side.  

Nah...  I read the article too.  I think they've done 2 stories on the Bengals in the last 5 years.  The other one was a story on the haters of Andy Dalton.  They are so infrequent that any fan would read all of them...  No matter how mundane (a piece on an offensive line coach) may seem.  It was a good article.  Other than the fact that Wyche and others here hate on him, I didn't know a lot about the guy.  I'm not an expert on O line coaches so I really don't have much of an opinion on him. I just felt compelled to chime in that SI routinely sets the bar low for the Bengals.  I'm not big on Bodine though.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-02-2016, 08:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Paul is responsible for scouting the shit he is given.  Whomever was involved with the decision to franchise tag Stacy Andrews needs to be fired retroactively.

Yes, you are correct.  And for Alexander to bring up a player from previous to his "era" to use as an example to make a point about a current player, under his tutelage, is just pointless. 

The entire interview seems curious to me, as PA is so defensive, without the direct question even being asked. 

[McC]

(05-02-2016, 03:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Andre Smith also struggled in run blocking last year.  If Bodine was the entire problem then we would have been more successful running off tackle.

You don't have to be a coach to see that.

Typical lame ass argument.  We're talking about player A being bad so let's bring Player B into it as if that will excuse it.  That's just what PA did.  PA, is this you?

[TGISunday]

(05-02-2016, 09:00 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes, you are correct.  And for Alexander to bring up a player from previous to his "era" to use as an example to make a point about a current player, under his tutelage, is just pointless. 

The entire interview seems curious to me, as PA is so defensive, without the direct question even being asked. 

Especially with "the voice of the Bengals" stating he's a potential starter at center in the podcast.

[mikey6866]

Wait till bodine gets pancaked by billings in practice. The witch hunt is just beginning.

[3wt]

(05-03-2016, 02:13 AM)mikey6866 Wrote: Wait till bodine gets pancaked by billings in practice.  The witch hunt is just beginning.

LOL I think he may be pancaking a lot of people in practice.   I kind of hope so actually.

The big hope is that practicing against a guy that (we hope) is that good is that it will force Bodine to rely on his technique instead of his brute strength.  Lap says that he is a good player when he relies on his technique instead of his brute force.

That may be Alexander's point regarding Braham.  He had the time to fully develop his technique before he started.   Bodine has not had that luxury.

Man if Alexander is right, and the light goes on for Bodine we should have a very good year in 2016.

[fredtoast]

Logic is obviously useless in a world were everyone believes Paul Alexander told the team "I don't want any draft picks to work with. All I need are undrafted guy and cheap-ass, past-their-prime free agents."


Over Pauls first 20 years as O-line coach for the Bengals they only used a total of 6 picks in the first two rounds on offensive linemen (Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Whitworth, Smith, Zeitler). Every single one of them were starters for many years. They had also only used 3 third round picks, and only one of them failed to be at least a 2 year starter in the NFL(Rod Payne '97 C).

Here is a list of the O-linemen taken by other teams in the first three rounds that never became starers from just '04-'13 (I am not counting the last two drafts because there are guys who may still become starers)

'13...Brennan Williams-3
'12...Mike Adams-2, Donald Stephenson-3, Tony Bergstrom-3
'11...Danny Watkins-1 (Watkins actually started 12 games one season, but with only 18 starts in 3 seasons for 2 teams he qualifies as a flop), Gabe Carimi-1 (also had one seadon with 14 starts, but with only 26 starts in four seasons for 3 teams he is also a bust), Derrick Sherrod-1, Ben Ijalana-2,
'10...Mike Johnson-3
'09...Jason Smith-1 (#2 overall pick had one season with 15 starts, only 26 in four seasons with 2 teams), Eben Britton-2 (15 starts rookie season, only 19 more starts in next five years with 2 teams), Robert Brewester-3, Antoine Caldwell-3,
'08...Jeff Otah-1 (29 starts in only 3 seasons), Oniel Cousins-3
'07...James Martin-3, Andy Alleman-3
'06...Charles spencer-3, Rashad Butler-3
'05...Marcus Johnson-2 (one season with 10 starts, only 8 more in 4 more years with 2 teams), Rashad Butler-3
'04...Jacob Rogers-2,
'03...Bruce Nrelson-2, Wayne Hunter-3 (One season 15 starts, only 9 more over 7 seasons with 4 teams), Seth Wand-3 (one season 16 starts, only 2 more in 4 more years with 3 teams), Courtney Van Buren-3

I'd have to back another 7 years to get to the one and only pick from the first three rounds that flopped for the Bengals. Compared to the rest of the league that looks pretty good.

I guess someone will argue that Paul has such a low total because the Bengals only made 9 picks over those 20 seasons, but that goes back to my point about how little he was given to work with.

[fredtoast]

(05-02-2016, 09:17 PM)McC Wrote: Typical lame ass argument.  We're talking about player A being bad so let's bring Player B into it as if that will excuse it.  That's just what PA did.  PA, is this you?

It is not a lame argument when it was posted to couter the claim that Bodine was the ONLY problem with the run game.

That doesn't prove that Bodine was any better, but it does prove that the person who claimed Bodine was the only problem does not have much credibility.

[TGISunday]

PA PR team chooses to ignore direct questions and instead posts long winded hypothetical statements having nothing to do with the topic. I'm going to chalk this up to a waiving of the white flag.

[fredtoast]

(05-03-2016, 03:11 PM)TGISunday Wrote: PA PR team chooses to ignore direct questions and instead posts long winded hypothetical statements having nothing to do with the topic.  I'm going to chalk this up to a waiving of the white flag.

What question have I not answered?

[BigPapaKain]

Russell Bodine looks like a fat version of my buddy Mike.

He's a good dude. Steelers fan, though.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-03-2016, 02:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Logic is obviously useless in a world were everyone believes Paul Alexander told the team "I don't want any draft picks to work with.  All I need are undrafted guy and cheap-ass, past-their-prime free agents."

Yeah, I guess that's why the Bengals drafted two OTs back-to-back in the first and second round last year.

Quote:Over Pauls first 20 years as O-line coach for the Bengals they only used a total of 6 picks in the first two rounds on offensive linemen (Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Whitworth, Smith, Zeitler).  Every single one of them were starters for many years.  They had also only used 3 third round picks, and only one of them failed to be at least a 2 year starter in the NFL(Rod Payne '97 C).

Here is a list of the O-linemen taken by other teams in the first three rounds that never became starers from just '04-'13  (I am not counting the last two drafts because there are guys who may still become starers)

'13...Brennan Williams-3
'12...Mike Adams-2, Donald Stephenson-3, Tony Bergstrom-3
'11...Danny Watkins-1 (Watkins actually started 12 games one season, but with only 18 starts in 3 seasons for 2 teams he qualifies as a flop), Gabe Carimi-1 (also had one seadon with 14 starts, but with only 26 starts in four seasons for 3 teams he is also a bust), Derrick Sherrod-1, Ben Ijalana-2,
'10...Mike Johnson-3
'09...Jason Smith-1 (#2 overall pick had one season with 15 starts, only 26 in four seasons with 2 teams), Eben Britton-2 (15 starts rookie season, only 19 more starts in next five years with 2 teams), Robert Brewester-3, Antoine Caldwell-3,
'08...Jeff Otah-1 (29 starts in only 3 seasons), Oniel Cousins-3
'07...James Martin-3, Andy Alleman-3
'06...Charles spencer-3, Rashad Butler-3
'05...Marcus Johnson-2 (one season with 10 starts, only 8 more in 4 more years with 2 teams), Rashad Butler-3
'04...Jacob Rogers-2,
'03...Bruce Nrelson-2, Wayne Hunter-3 (One season 15 starts, only 9 more over 7 seasons with 4 teams), Seth Wand-3 (one season 16 starts, only 2 more in 4 more years with 3 teams), Courtney Van Buren-3

I'd have to back another 7 years to get to the one and only pick from the first three rounds that flopped for the Bengals.  Compared to the rest of the league that looks pretty good.

I guess someone will argue that Paul has such a low total because the Bengals only made 9 picks over those 20 seasons, but that goes back to my point about how little he was given to work with.

The number of games started by the likes of Guycheck, Livings, Andrews, etc doesn't make them suck any less.  This is where your argument falls flat every single time.  As you admit, Bodine hasn't had to compete with anyone for starts.  Do the number of times he has started change the fact he hasn't competed with anyone?  No.  Do the number of times he started change the fact he is the weakest link on the line?  No.  

It took the offensive line coaches of the Eagles and Cowboys one season to figure out what Paul Alexander never did; we gotta replace Andrews and Livings 'cause they suck.

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-03-2016, 02:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Logic is obviously useless in a world were everyone believes Paul Alexander told the team "I don't want any draft picks to work with. All I need are undrafted guy and cheap-ass, past-their-prime free agents."


Over Pauls first 20 years as O-line coach for the Bengals they only used a total of 6 picks in the first two rounds on offensive linemen (Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Whitworth, Smith, Zeitler). Every single one of them were starters for many years. They had also only used 3 third round picks, and only one of them failed to be at least a 2 year starter in the NFL(Rod Payne '97 C).

Here is a list of the O-linemen taken by other teams in the first three rounds that never became starers from just '04-'13 (I am not counting the last two drafts because there are guys who may still become starers)

'13...Brennan Williams-3
'12...Mike Adams-2, Donald Stephenson-3, Tony Bergstrom-3
'11...Danny Watkins-1 (Watkins actually started 12 games one season, but with only 18 starts in 3 seasons for 2 teams he qualifies as a flop), Gabe Carimi-1 (also had one seadon with 14 starts, but with only 26 starts in four seasons for 3 teams he is also a bust), Derrick Sherrod-1, Ben Ijalana-2,
'10...Mike Johnson-3
'09...Jason Smith-1 (#2 overall pick had one season with 15 starts, only 26 in four seasons with 2 teams), Eben Britton-2 (15 starts rookie season, only 19 more starts in next five years with 2 teams), Robert Brewester-3, Antoine Caldwell-3,
'08...Jeff Otah-1 (29 starts in only 3 seasons), Oniel Cousins-3
'07...James Martin-3, Andy Alleman-3
'06...Charles spencer-3, Rashad Butler-3
'05...Marcus Johnson-2 (one season with 10 starts, only 8 more in 4 more years with 2 teams), Rashad Butler-3
'04...Jacob Rogers-2,
'03...Bruce Nrelson-2, Wayne Hunter-3 (One season 15 starts, only 9 more over 7 seasons with 4 teams), Seth Wand-3 (one season 16 starts, only 2 more in 4 more years with 3 teams), Courtney Van Buren-3

I'd have to back another 7 years to get to the one and only pick from the first three rounds that flopped for the Bengals. Compared to the rest of the league that looks pretty good.

I guess someone will argue that Paul has such a low total because the Bengals only made 9 picks over those 20 seasons, but that goes back to my point about how little he was given to work with.

The Patriots had 3 rookies starting on the interior this year i think one or two was an UDFA. The Panthers made it to the Super Bowl with a patchwork OL. The Broncos won the Super Bowl with a patchwork OL. The Seahawks made the playoffs with a cluster and some guys who played DL in college. The Steelers had one of the best offenses in the league with a former Bengals UDFA TE playing LT.

We consistently have high paid franchise caliber LT and RTs.

If we lost multiple starters and had to start 3 rookies. I cant imagine how shitty piano man would have our OL looking. We would be lucky to finish at .500

Being a mediocre coach shouldnt get you a lifetime contract.

[McC]

(05-03-2016, 02:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not a lame argument when it was posted to couter the claim that Bodine was the ONLY problem with the run game.

That doesn't prove that Bodine was any better, but it does prove that the person who claimed Bodine was the only problem does not have much credibility.

You might have a point if I had made such a claim.  All I said was NT's live in our offensive backfield.  Deny that without bringing the RT into it.    The RT being bad has nothing to do with the C.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-02-2016, 07:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Because that player that was previously unmentioned, was hand picked by the coach, and the ability to become a starter is directly linked to replacing that "hand picked" coaches' favorite.

Tells me that Alexander is feeling the pressure for Bodine to produce, or hit the road.

As he should. It should be expected that a fourth round C would have some areas of improvement initially, but the purpose of the OL coach is to iron out those issues and turn a mid-round talent into a quality starter within a few years.

Hopefully the plan is for 2016 to be Bodine's make or break year. If he doesn't step up, he stays on the team through his rookie contract and is the bridge for either Westerman or a 2017 high draft pick to take over in 2018.