The Iran deal

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 11:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Too bad Trump fans stopped reading after the first 140 characters.

You think he reads at all.  That's adorable.  

[hollodero]

(05-08-2018, 11:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when everyone was going to have to go back to dial up internet because of repealing net neutrality?

Remember when Trump was going to get beat in a landslide General Election?

Remember when Trump was going to not make it to the inauguration before being replaced?

Remember when England was going to become a 3rd world country because of Brexit?

Remember when the Russian puppet master would never do anything to Syria?

Remember when Trump was going to get impeached within his first 100 days in office?

and now we have:

Remember when the rest of the world turned on us because we backed out of the Iran deal?

Currently 0 for 7 anyone want to bet on going 1 for 8? I got my money on 0 for 8. Who wants to dance?

BTW, you seem kinda "butthurt". Are you one of those Trump Rubes Dino was referring to?

Many pointed it out, but still, it is not fair to associate everyone critical of Trump with these opinions. I maybe held one of those in parts (Syria), and that's it and I guess the same goes for most people here.

The rest of the world is appalled. That's me saying that, but sure what do I know. But would you say the US position on the world stage is strengthened or weakened by tearing up agreements for no reason, or let's say for forged reasons Netanyahu offered? Are other countries now more or less willing to work with such a partner? What's your educated guess.

Also, do you think Iran is now more or less likely to develop a nuclear weapon. Every hardliner in Iran can now say, look we tried it your way, but we told you, the US is the enemy and no one we should rely on or trust in any way. And all the moderates can answer now is "..." Who will win that discourse?

[Goalpost]

Was the agreement here ever binding? I seem to recall this discussion taking place at the time. It was never verified by congressional to my knowledge which would have put it on a more solid foundation. Could be wrong. But I seem to remember Iran calling this binding and many scholars saying it isn't...that a new administration could opt out.

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 12:13 PM)hollodero Wrote: Many pointed it out, but still, it is not fair to associate everyone critical of Trump with these opinions. I maybe held one of those in parts (Syria), and that's it and I guess the same goes for most people here.

The rest of the world is appalled. That's me saying that, but sure what do I know. But would you say the US position on the world stage is strengthened or weakened by tearing up agreements for no reason, or let's say for forged reasons Netanyahu offered? Are other countries now more or less willing to work with such a partner? What's your educated guess.

Also, do you think Iran is now more or less likely to develop a nuclear weapon. Every hardliner in Iran can now say, look we tried it your way, but we told you, the US is the enemy and no one we should rely on or trust in any way. And all the moderates can answer now is "..." Who will win that discourse?

That's one big problem with the blowhard in the oval office.  He just feeds the the hardliners by actually saying the things they said the US would say.

[Belsnickel]

(05-09-2018, 12:29 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Was the agreement here ever binding? I seem to recall this discussion taking place at the time. It was never verified by congressional to my knowledge which would have put it on a more solid foundation. Could be wrong. But I seem to remember Iran calling this binding and many scholars saying it isn't...that a new administration could opt out.

Because it was never ratified, it means it was the prerogative of the Executive to pull out as they see fit. But no one was really saying Trump couldn't so this, just that it was stupid to do so.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-09-2018, 04:57 AM)Dill Wrote: Never mind that every president since Washington has "put the USA first."

Trump pulled out of the Paris Accords, the TPP and now the Iran Deal. 

How is that not giving away "leadership"? How is that "strength"?  

You care if Obama upsets world leaders--but not Trump?

What sort of "leader" doesn't care if he upsets trading partners.  This is like saying some corporate CEO shouldn't care what the customers think if he is putting the business first.

How is making the world less safe for the US putting the US first?

Finally, Trump seems to be putting his own business and family first, not the USA.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-05/how-is-donald-trump-profiting-from-the-presidency-let-us-count-the-ways
http://www.newsweek.com/serious-investigation-trump-profiting-presidency-778719

Idc if any US president upsets world leaders. The lion doesn’t concern himself with the opinions of sheep.

I do care when presidents show weakness. Which was a consistent obama issue.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-09-2018, 12:33 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Because it was never ratified, it means it was the prerogative of the Executive to pull out as they see fit. But no one was really saying Trump couldn't so this, just that it was stupid to do so.

Obama just cared about his legacy over everything else.... maybe he should have cared more about getting a good deal with real teeth.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2018, 03:31 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Obama just cared about his legacy over everything else.... maybe he should have cared more about getting a good deal with real teeth.

It was a "negotiated" agreement.  It was not terms of surrender.

No way Iran would vow to never develop nuclear weapons when they are surrounded by enemies and Israel already has them.  

Everyone agrees this one was working.  So what exactly needed to be "fixed"?

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 03:31 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Obama just cared about his legacy over everything else.... maybe he should have cared more about getting a good deal with real teeth.

How was the agreement lacking real teeth? I'd like to hear your in depth discussion of it.

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 12:29 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Was the agreement here ever binding?  I seem to recall this discussion taking place at the time.  It was never verified by congressional to my knowledge which would have put it on a more solid foundation.  Could be wrong.  But I seem to remember Iran calling this binding and many scholars saying it isn't...that a new administration could opt out.

It really doesn't matter in Social Media. If folks dislike POTUS they are going to complain and if folks like POTUS they are going to cheer. Trump made no secret about the fact he intended to pull the US from the deal if elected POTUS. America spoke. I can guarantee you he had stayed in the agreement. The population now complaining would just be complaining about how he doesn't keep Campaign promises and those cheering would continue to do so and say he stood by America's word.

In the real world he did exactly what he was empowered to do. But you are not going to get anyone to cross a line.

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 05:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It really doesn't matter in Social Media. If folks dislike POTUS they are going to complain and if folks like POTUS they are going to cheer. Trump made no secret about the fact he intended to pull the US from the deal if elected POTUS. America spoke. I can guarantee you he had stayed in the agreement. The population now complaining would just be complaining about how he doesn't keep Campaign promises and those cheering would continue to do so and say he stood by America's word.

In the real world he did exactly what he was empowered to do. But you are not going to get anyone to cross a line.

You got that right!  and more voted against him than for him.

Although I'd be interested in a poll of Trump supporters to see how many voted for him because of their problems with the Iran deal...lol.

If Trump lived in the real world fewer of us would have anything to complain about though.

[*bfine32*]

(05-09-2018, 05:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: You got that right!  and more voted against him than for him.

Although I'd be interested in a poll of Trump supporters to see how many voted for him because of their problems with the Iran deal...lol.

If Trump lived in the real world fewer of us would have anything to complain about though.

Everybody got more votes against than for. But you hold tight to that straw.

You would only like to see such a poll so you could slur another population that put themselves there

You sell short  your ability to complain

[Belsnickel]

#Russia's state TV is having a panel discussion as to where to find 8 trillion rubles needed to implement Putin’s domestic policy goals. Female host says: "Looks like we found it. Trump is withdrawing US from the #Iran nuclear deal. Oil prices should go up, which is good for us." pic.twitter.com/GSkoUL0L2u

— Julia Davis (@JuliaDavisNews) May 8, 2018

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 05:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Everybody got more votes against than for. But you hold tight to that straw.

You would only like to see such a poll so you could slur another population that put themselves there

You sell short  your ability to complain

Clinton more votes for than Trump.  

I would like to see such a poll because some people around here like to claim that Trump got elected or this reason or that reason...and his supporters that I meet in real life never seem to know anything about those reasons.

"slur"

[XenoMorph]

(05-08-2018, 12:34 PM)hollodero Wrote: Disclaimer, I'm not an expert on the deal, chances are it's a flawed one, I wouldn't dare say.

But if Trump blows it up today, that would be a severe sign to the world that a contract with the US isn't worth negotiating in the first place. It would mean your political parties stand so fundamentally opposed that one can't reach an agreement with the USA, just with one of your parties. With great chances the other party doesn't respect it, based on facts or just based on principle.

I also would expect this a weakening of Trump's position towards North Korea, because what exactly should Kim fancy about any agreement that might not be worth the time and the paper to begin with. Similar goes for other countries like Europe. Trump would severly insult allies and there just can't be any other reaction as regarding the US as an unreliable player that can no longer be trusted. (The Kurds tell us that for a long time now.) I don't want to overstate things, but I can't see any other reaction.

I'm certain the US can still bully through and be fine, but nevertheless I believe the US would weaken itself for the foreseeable future on the world stage. It would also make the world less safe. For starters, I can't imagine Iran not trying to get the bomb as soon as possible after that one, other countries probably following that path.

Discuss :)

Wait wait wait..

Europe is a country?

[XenoMorph]

(05-09-2018, 05:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: You got that right!  and more voted against him than for him.

Although I'd be interested in a poll of Trump supporters to see how many voted for him because of their problems with the Iran deal...lol.

If Trump lived in the real world fewer of us would have anything to complain about though.

Gotta win districts  To win the numbers,  to win the state.. The masses were all in the same districts so while they had overall # they didn't win the needed electorials.

[Dill]

(05-09-2018, 11:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Too bad Trump fans stopped reading after the first 140 characters.

LOL I was going to say--what Trumpster is going to check off all those points?

Five lines in and its TL;DR.  "Don't care what other countries think.
People just like to complain.  FoxHannityTrump say its a terrible deal.  Time to put America first.
Now we'll be able to stop them from getting the bomb."

[StLucieBengal]

(05-09-2018, 04:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: How was the agreement lacking real teeth? I'd like to hear your in depth discussion of it.

The Deal Prevented Concerted Action. The deal didn’t merely remove sanctions on Iran. It effectively blocked America’s allies from doing anything to stop the Iranian nuclear forward motion. If Israel and Saudi Arabia had attacked Iranian facilities, they would have been cross-ways with the United States and the Europeans. The deal effectively made Tehran an ally, and our real allies enemies.

[StLucieBengal]

Quote:If we pull out of the Iran deal, next time a country does a deal with our president they will think it’s only good until they leave office. Which is good. Because that’s exactly the reality. Go through the senate if you want it to mean something else.

This is exactly correct. Senate approval is a must if you want it. For the long Haul

[GMDino]

(05-09-2018, 04:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: How was the agreement lacking real teeth? I'd like to hear your in depth discussion of it.

(05-09-2018, 06:09 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The Deal Prevented Concerted Action. The deal didn’t merely remove sanctions on Iran. It effectively blocked America’s allies from doing anything to stop the Iranian nuclear forward motion. If Israel and Saudi Arabia had attacked Iranian facilities, they would have been cross-ways with the United States and the Europeans. The deal effectively made Tehran an ally, and our real allies enemies.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/30392/watch-trump-just-shredded-iran-deal-here-are-5-ben-shapiro

Quote:2. The Deal Prevented Concerted Action. The deal didn’t merely remove sanctions on Iran. It effectively blocked America’s allies from doing anything to stop the Iranian nuclear forward motion. If Israel and Saudi Arabia had attacked Iranian facilities, they would have been cross-ways with the United States and the Europeans. The deal effectively made Tehran an ally, and our real allies enemies.

That's...just...sad.

Unsurprising...but sad.