Trump-Biden Debates set

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-20-2024, 08:32 PM)Dill Wrote: We see Democrats cry no one should be above the law, then in the next breath hold a corrupt politician accountable for using the power of his office in an attempt to overthrow a valid election. We see the left media cheer as Dems uphold rule of law. 

Here is one form election interreference takes.

and then turn around an ignore the law in protests they support, even bail people out. 

But i see a bunch of grown ass adults making their own decisions here, no one was forced.

[Dill]

(05-20-2024, 09:59 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: and then turn around an ignore the law in protests they support, even bail people out. 

But i see a bunch of grown ass adults making their own decisions here, no one was forced.

I see a bunch of grown ass adults who have been deliberately disinformed by Trump. 
People died as result. And 900+ were convicted of charges ranging from trespassing to sedition.  

And I see a refusal to hold Trump accountable for EXECUTING A PLAN to throw a valid election to the House 
in an ILLEGAL bid to stay in power. 

The claim that Dems "turn around and ignore the law in protests they support, even bail people out"
is part an parcel of the disinformation on which MAGA thrives. 

Both sides don't do it. Only one upholds rule of law at present.  

And it's not the side that, in the spirit of 1/6, now strives to intimidate judges and prosecutors to protect the party leader.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 10:51 AM)Dill Wrote: I see a bunch of grown ass adults who have been deliberately disinformed by Trump. 
People died as result. And 900+ were convicted of charges ranging from trespassing to sedition.  

And I see a refusal to hold Trump accountable for EXECUTING A PLAN to throw a valid election to the House 
in an ILLEGAL bid to stay in power. 

The claim that Dems "turn around and ignore the law in protests they support, even bail people out"
is part an parcel of the disinformation on which MAGA thrives. 

Both sides don't do it. Only one upholds rule of law at present.  

And it's not the side that, in the spirit of 1/6, now strives to intimidate judges and prosecutors to protect the party leader.

So?
We were all informed of the same thing, yet I didn't feel some need to be there. 

Trump is being held accountable. He's only been brought up on one FEDERAL indictment that I am aware of. And it appears to be on shaky ground. 

Is it? 

Biden staff donate to group that pays bail in riot-torn Minneapolis
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2360SY/

New York Democrats redirecting contributions from police to bail funds
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/new-york-democrats-redirecting-contributions-police-bail-funds-n1221201

[hollodero]

(05-21-2024, 03:23 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So?
We were all informed of the same thing, yet I didn't feel some need to be there. 

Trump is being held accountable. He's only been brought up on one FEDERAL indictment that I am aware of. And it appears to be on shaky ground. 

Well, it appears he is not held accountable by you. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 04:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, it appears he is not held accountable by you. 

To me it's a federal issue, not a state issue. States should not have power over a Federal Employee.

[hollodero]

(05-21-2024, 05:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: To me it's a federal issue, not a state issue. States should not have power over a Federal Employee.

Maybe, I don't know, but it's still no valid reason to not hold him accountable. 

Just not to be misunderstood, I understand voting for him, even more so since there are but two options available. But time and again I see conservatives also never holding him accountable for anything, and that is hard to get at times.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 05:44 PM)hollodero Wrote: Maybe, I don't know, but it's still no valid reason to not hold him accountable. 

Just not to be misunderstood, I understand voting for him, even more so since there are but two options available. But time and again I see conservatives also never holding him accountable for anything, and that is hard to get at times.

Dems aren't holding Biden accountable for Immigration, They keep shuffling the blame for anything and everything to the R's. 

Like right now they are planning to push the "bi-partisan" immigration bill thru the Senate again with no changes to it from the last time it was rejected as part of the Ukraine/Israel aid packages, knowing the R's will reject it. And looking for more bills the R's will reject to push thru as well and claim.. It's not us! It's them.

[hollodero]

(05-21-2024, 06:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Dems aren't holding Biden accountable for Immigration, They keep shuffling the blame for anything and everything to the R's. 

Maybe so, it could be a debate on its own, but I don't really disagree in principle.
Sadly though, pointing to Democrats shifting blame and playing political games is still no valid reason to not hold Trump accountable for anything. That is just what folks call whataboutism, though I personally prefer the term deflection.

Also, you keep shuffling the blame for anything and everything to the D's. At which point your complaint about them behaving the same way sounds a bit hollow.

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-21-2024, 06:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Dems aren't holding Biden accountable for Immigration, They keep shuffling the blame for anything and everything to the R's. 

Like right now they are planning to push the "bi-partisan" immigration bill thru the Senate again with no changes to it from the last time it was rejected as part of the Ukraine/Israel aid packages, knowing the R's will reject it. And looking for more bills the R's will reject to push thru as well and claim.. It's not us! It's them.

So you put bi-partisan in quotes, why?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 06:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Maybe so, it could be a debate on its own, but I don't really disagree in principle.
Sadly though, pointing to Democrats shifting blame and playing political games is still no valid reason to not hold Trump accountable for anything. That is just what folks call whataboutism, though I personally prefer the term deflection.

Also, you keep shuffling the blame for anything and everything to the D's. At which point your complaint about them behaving the same way sounds a bit hollow.

Anything and everything? Not at all, I pick on both sides, I just see it more from the Left like you see it more from the Right. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 06:28 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: So you put bi-partisan in quotes, why?

Because the R that worked on it with them is even against it now. Doesn't do enough to address Immigration. 

[hollodero]

(05-21-2024, 06:33 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Anything and everything? Not at all, I pick on both sides, I just see it more from the Left like you see it more from the Right. 

Well, that's fair enough, but I also feel you never hold Trump accountable for anything. At the very least, you make quite an effort to get around it.

And it's true, I see it more from the right and there's a reason for that. As an example of many, I wonder what would happen if Biden, losing the '24 election, were on tape demanding a state secretary find him the necessary votes to overturn the election result or else. My belief is that the liberal posters, folks like Dill or pally for example, would not immediately deflect away with side topics, declare Biden unblemished until proven guilty in court, slander the court in question just in case, be just fine with Biden claiming up and down the land that he got betrayed by election fraud on a massive scale. They would not follow Biden or anyone there, not to these dark extremes.

And me, I would declare Biden a threat to democracy too in that scenario, for me that's actually not a partisan issue. For you, it apparently is. For you would not forgive Biden either if he were to do the same things Trump did.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 07:00 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, that's fair enough, but I also feel you never hold Trump accountable for anything. At the very least, you make quite an effort to get around it.

And it's true, I see it more from the right and there's a reason for that. As an example of many, I wonder what would happen if Biden, losing the '24 election, were on tape demanding a state secretary find him the necessary votes to overturn the election result or else. My belief is that the liberal posters, folks like Dill or pally for example, would not immediately deflect away with side topics, declare Biden unblemished until proven guilty in court, slander the court in question just in case, be just fine with Biden claiming up and down the land that he got betrayed by election fraud on a massive scale. They would not follow Biden or anyone there, not to these dark extremes.

And me, I would declare Biden a threat to democracy too in that scenario, for me that's actually not a partisan issue. For you, it apparently is. For you would not forgive Biden either if he were to do the same things Trump did.

The civil suit in NY? That was all stupid on him, but my point with that is, he's far from the only one that does the falsifying records, but I don't see them going after anyone else. Just Trump, so kinda makes it reek of Politics.

[NATI BENGALS]

(05-21-2024, 06:34 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Because the R that worked on it with them is even against it now. Doesn't do enough to address Immigration. 

Are you sure you’re not making that up or parroting right wing misinformation?

30 minute speech about it
https://youtu.be/80FrtC_ev6E?si=hewAxOmuUN_vpdxv

https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-senator-mullin-lankford-border-bill/46677734
“Welcome to the United States Senate. That's what we have to do. While I have people from around the country and back home that say, 'Do a Republican-only bill. Just get all of our priorities and none of theirs,' I smile at them and say, 'Welcome to governance,'" Lankford said.

Lankford said the border has become a political pawn, especially during an election year, claiming a popular national commentator warned against the bill, weeks before details on the bill were even known.

"They told me flat out that if you put out a bill that tries to solve the border crisis during this presidential year, I will do whatever I can to destroy you because I do not want you to solve this during a presidential election," Lankford said.”

I haven’t seen anything where he turned against it. But I didn’t look too hard.

[hollodero]

(05-21-2024, 07:06 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The civil suit in NY? That was all stupid on him, but my point with that is, he's far from the only one that does the falsifying records, but I don't see them going after anyone else. Just Trump, so kinda makes it reek of Politics.

I wasn't talking about him falsifying business records. I was talking about him calling a state secretary pressuring him to find him the votes needed to overturn the election results. 

I could also talk things like fake elector schemes, blatant lies about election fraud, argueing for total presidential immunity and then some. Why bring up the NY civil case instead? Why the sidetracking? When you could just say yes, pressuring state secretaries into finding votes is wrong. That's just what I can't fathom, how so many conservatives apparently are incapable of stating this simple and imho self-evident truth about this fundamental issue. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 07:07 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Are you sure you’re not making that up or parroting right wing misinformation?

30 minute speech about it
https://youtu.be/80FrtC_ev6E?si=hewAxOmuUN_vpdxv

https://www.koco.com/article/oklahoma-senator-mullin-lankford-border-bill/46677734
“Welcome to the United States Senate. That's what we have to do. While I have people from around the country and back home that say, 'Do a Republican-only bill. Just get all of our priorities and none of theirs,' I smile at them and say, 'Welcome to governance,'" Lankford said.

Lankford said the border has become a political pawn, especially during an election year, claiming a popular national commentator warned against the bill, weeks before details on the bill were even known.

"They told me flat out that if you put out a bill that tries to solve the border crisis during this presidential year, I will do whatever I can to destroy you because I do not want you to solve this during a presidential election," Lankford said.”

I haven’t seen anything where he turned against it. But I didn’t look too hard.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-democrats-revive-bipartisan-border-security-bill-gop-vows-block-rcna153045

Bringing the bipartisan bill back to the floor is part of Democrats' broader election year strategy to go on the offense on immigration — an issue that has vexed the party in past cycles. In recent weeks, key Biden administration officials and top Democratic lawmakers have discussed holding votes on bills that the GOP would oppose and weighed various executive actions that Biden could take. This month, the administration proposed a new rule to accelerate the asylum process.

Republicans are vowing to filibuster the legislation — as they've done before — dismissing the vote as a political messaging exercise less than six months before the November election. Even Sen. James Lankford, the Oklahoma Republican who negotiated the original border package with Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn., and Sen. Kyrsten Sinema, I-Ariz., is vowing to vote no.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 07:33 PM)hollodero Wrote: I wasn't talking about him falsifying business records. I was talking about him calling a state secretary pressuring him to find him the votes needed to overturn the election results. 

I could also talk things like fake elector schemes, blatant lies about election fraud, argueing for total presidential immunity and then some. Why bring up the NY civil case instead? Why the sidetracking? When you could just say yes, pressuring state secretaries into finding votes is wrong. That's just what I can't fathom, how so many conservatives apparently are incapable of stating this simple and imho self-evident truth about this fundamental issue. 

I don't see the calling and telling him to find the votes a big deal, more like it was taken out of context. 

As far as the fake electors, that depends on to many variables that we don't have access to. And at the time, was it illegal? Not totally sure, but what i do know is several states have passed legislation making fake electors illegal. 

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

I heard DJT wanted the have the debate go on while both parties were walking on treadmills...

[hollodero]

(05-21-2024, 07:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I don't see the calling and telling him to find the votes a big deal, more like it was taken out of context. 

Out of context? The whole call is on tape, not just a snippet. In it, he clearly asks to "find him" the exact number of votes he needs to overturn the election, adding a "give me a break", then claimed it would be a big risk to not comply. What kind of context makes this ok?

(05-21-2024, 07:48 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: As far as the fake electors, that depends on to many variables that we don't have access to. And at the time, was it illegal?

Is this really the important question, to wonder about legal technicalities? What about whether it is morally corrupt or not? Or would you claim that sending "alternate" electors that ignore the state's election results is just fine as long as it is not distinctly determined to be illegal? A stance I would find tough to accept really; and I can not quite believe you would let this excuse fly if Biden or Hillary employed such a scheme.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-21-2024, 08:06 PM)hollodero Wrote: Out of context? The whole call is on tape, not just a snippet. In it, he clearly asks to "find him" the exact number of votes he needs to overturn the election, adding a "give me a break", then claimed it would be a big risk to not comply. What kind of context makes this ok?



Is this really the important question, to wonder about legal technicalities? What about whether it is morally corrupt or not? Or would you claim that sending "alternate" electors that ignore the state's election results is just fine as long as it is not distinctly determined to be illegal? A stance I would find tough to accept really; and I can not quite believe you would let this excuse fly if Biden or Hillary employed such a scheme.

And coming from a guy that was on his last straws looking for a break? or hoping there was an error somewhere? 
With the amount of ballot harvesting that goes on, it's not illogical that some votes gets missed. I have a hard time trusting the process myself, especially if it's close. 

I've pasted in the past, instances where votes were added at the last minutes and change the outcome and some people did it illegally thus the votes got dismissed and the other candidate won. This does happen, but more at the local level than Federal level. 

Legal or not matters most, but do you really expect a guy like Trump to not find a gray area and push it? I think it was a bad move, but Trump is Trump and he's a sore loser. It's his nature.