Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document

[jj22]

A symbolic bow with an Ally isn’t a military salute saved for the highest respect. . I didn’t say anything when Trump bowed and didn’t when Obama did. That is common courtesy. A military salute to the general of a army we are still technically at war with is completely different and anyone arguing it’s the same lacks credibility. And saying Obama ignored our military salutes is just more fake news Trump supporters must be pushing. Either way forgive me if I don’t let people fine with the POTUS saluting the General of an army we are at war with determine what is patriotic or not. America first? More like Trump first. Even if that means to hell with America. I’m not going to keep this up tho. There’s not much you can say to me as an American to get me to agree with saluting an enemy of this great nation. But you guys can feel free to do so.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-15-2018, 03:50 PM)jj22 Wrote: A symbolic bow with an Ally isn’t a military salute saved for the highest respect. 

And this is where you lose all credibility. A bow is "symbolic" in showing that the person you are bowing to you consider to be greater than yourself. In other words, bowing to someone is showing a greater respect to that person than saluting them. 

[Dill]

(06-15-2018, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And it sound kind of silly to claim Democrats should not hurl aggressive insults at the same time you brag that Trump's campaign strategy was a success.

Yes. Another unnoticed inconsistency. Like complaints critics are disrespecting the office when they call Trump on his conspiracy theories and petty insults, separating Trump from accountability.

(06-15-2018, 01:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you don't think folks are getting turned off of the Left because of the constant rancor, then by all means keep it up.

What sort of person IS NOT turned off by Trump's vulgar behavior, lies and distortions, and policy missteps, but IS turned off by CRITICISM of Trump's vulgarity, lies and ignorance of how the government works?

The only serious answer to that question is--only people who are already comfortable with Trump, who accept his behavior even when they claim they don't like it, or who actually identify with it. He's still better than "crooked" Hillary, a "leftist."  Attacks on Trump's behavior they take personally as an attack on their judgment and standards.  Criticism of bad behavior only "turns off" people when they identify with the behavior or don't think it is that bad.

No one who thinks gang violence is bad says "stop criticizing gangs or you will turn people off on the criminal justice system."  No one who really thinks sexual harassment is bad says "If people don't stop complaining about sexual harassment then I am going to start harassing women."  NO ONE DOES THAT. There is no significant percentage of "independent" voters who fall into this supposed category of "turned off by the left."

In the coming elections, the only people who will be voting are 1) people who actually think Trump's behavior is bad, in which case they vote against him; and 2) people find his behavior acceptable or even good, in which case they will complain about Trump critics all the way to the voting booth, where they will vote for Trump no matter what.

[NATI BENGALS]

So the nuclear threat is gone but the cyber threat is very real?

[Bengalzona]

(06-15-2018, 04:26 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And this is where you lose all credibility. A bow is "symbolic" in showing that the person you are bowing to you consider to be greater than yourself. In other words, bowing to someone is showing a greater respect to that person than saluting them. 

In our military, the junior ranking members are expected to initiate salutes to superior ranking members. The higher ranking member is generally expected to return the salute. But salutes are only exchanged between enlisted members and officers and officers and other officers, not between enlisted members. Also, our military members generally don't salute civilians. The one big exception to that rule is the POTUS, who is the CiC of the armed forces.

I'm told that the clip didn't tell the whole story of the situation. That the NK officer started to salute Trump, then had second thoughts and held out his hand to shake. Trump, presumably caught off guard, returned the initial half-salute. That narrative would kind of make sense, as I'm sure that Trump has probably been having to return a lot of salutes during the past year or so.

Still, the clip that was shown was from the NK media and was used for propaganda purposes (as would be expected from them). It is still a faux pas, IMO, from a POTUS who tends to make a lot of them... such as this:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-says-he-wants-my-people-to-sit-at-attention-for-him-like-people-do-for-kim-jong-un/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=53057638

[*bfine32*]

(06-15-2018, 05:22 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Still, the clip that was shown was from the NK media and was used for propaganda purposes (as would be expected from them). It is still a faux pas, IMO, from a POTUS who tends to make a lot of them... such as this:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-says-he-wants-my-people-to-sit-at-attention-for-him-like-people-do-for-kim-jong-un/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=53057638

If Kim needs any other ammunition for his propaganda purposes all he need do is grant his citizenry access the The Bengal Board PnR subforum.

[Dill]

(06-15-2018, 05:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If Kim needs any other ammunition for his propaganda purposes all he need do is grant his citizenry access the The Bengal Board PnR subforum.

Then will the NK citizenry see the kind of respect for our "dear leader" that theirs demands?

Or will they see "traitors"?

My guess is a little of both.

[BmorePat87]

(06-15-2018, 01:59 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm not sure if this is true, but considering Obama RARELY saluted American military members, it wouldn't surprise me if he NEVER saluted foreign military members.

President's aren't required to salute. Reagan popularized the practice. 

Quote:On a more serious note, considering how outraged you are at what Trump did, I have to assume you were even MORE livid after Obama bowed - BOWED - to a Saudi king!

I think everyone from Clinton to Trump has and I think that it's out of line. Americans don't bow to leaders. Obama did have a habit of using a traditional asian bow with most asian dignitaries, which is different and equivalent to a handshake/greeting, but the Emperor bow was too much. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-15-2018, 05:50 PM)Dill Wrote: Then will the NK citizenry see the kind of respect for our "dear leader" that theirs demands?

Or will they see "traitors"?

My guess is a little of both.

They'd see us casually engaging in behavior that would get them executed. 

Not sure how that works in Kim's favor, though. 

[Bengalzona]

(06-15-2018, 05:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If Kim needs any other ammunition for his propaganda purposes all he need do is grant his citizenry access the The Bengal Board PnR subforum.

Indeed. We can show them things that Dear Leader never will.

[Dill]

(06-15-2018, 09:58 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Indeed. We can show them things that Dear Leader never will.

I'm pretty sure Kim would not want his people, whom he loves, see Americans "attack" their leader, his new friend.

Bfine's comment piques my interest in a comparison of the NK and liberal Western mediascapes.


"Fake news" or state news? Reading this forum would likely reinforce Kim's understanding of how important the latter is in maintaining social control and dictatorial freedom of action.

[jj22]

As Kim proves what we all knew (Trump was being played for a fool as he Saluted the enemy General, he gave up so much, and turned on our Ally in South Korea for a handshake). Trump digs in. He doesn't trust anyone but Putin and Kim.


Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
I have confidence that Kim Jong Un will honor the contract we signed &, even more importantly, our handshake. We agreed to the denuclearization of North Korea. China, on the other hand, may be exerting negative pressure on a deal because of our posture on Chinese Trade-Hope Not!

"I have confidence in Kim Jong Un", said no sane person ever. Sad. It really is. I don't are if you do support him. The POTUS getting so obviously played is an embarrassment to this nation.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-15-2018, 06:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: President's aren't required to salute. Reagan popularized the practice. 







I think everyone from Clinton to Trump has and I think that it's out of line. Americans don't bow to leaders. Obama did have a habit of using a traditional asian bow with most asian dignitaries, which is different and equivalent to a handshake/greeting, but the Emperor bow was too much. 

C'mon teach.

[BmorePat87]

(07-09-2018, 01:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: C'mon teach.

damn!

[jj22]

Soooo about this agreement. We know Trump supporters and the Fake News Media will cover for Trump (by not holding him accountable for his "we are safe and can sleep now" "The North is no longer a Nuclear threat" declaration) the way they never would any other POTUS. But as reports circulate about how Trump was played by Kim ("schooled, like no other American President" I believe I read)who is as active as ever with their Nuclear program, will there be any backlash or is it a case of "we all knew Trump was lying anyway".

Rereading this thread and it looks as though folks were conned again. But it's not as if they weren't warned.

[*Nately120*]

This is just Trump Vodka all over again. Damn it!

[ballsofsteel]

Is Trump still in the running for the Noble Peace Prize?

[Dill]

(08-28-2018, 09:45 AM)jj22 Wrote: Soooo about this agreement. We know Trump supporters and the Fake News Media will cover for Trump (by not holding him accountable for his "we are safe and can sleep now" "The North is no longer a Nuclear threat" declaration) the way they never would any other POTUS. But as reports circulate about how Trump was played by Kim ("schooled, like no other American President" I believe I read)who  is as active as ever with their Nuclear program, will there be any backlash or is it a case of "we all knew Trump was lying anyway".

Rereading this thread and it looks as though folks were conned again. But it's not as if they weren't warned.

What are you talking about? We have gone three months without war with NK. 

Obama cannot take credit for that!

[Vas Deferens]

'even more importantly, our handshake'

what a joke.

[GMDino]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korea-still-making-nukes-trump-admin-now-taking-much-n907651

tl;dr

NK has not dismantled its nukes and is still manufacturing them.

Quote:North Korea is still making nukes, and the Trump admin is taking a harder line

WASHINGTON — As President Donald Trump issues a steady stream of praise for Kim Jong Un in interviews and on Twitter, a steady stream of evidence that North Korea is still making nuclear weapons has pushed his administration to take a much more aggressive stance toward Pyongyang.


The newest intelligence shows Kim's regime has escalated efforts to conceal its nuclear activity, according to three senior U.S. officials. During the three months since the historic Singapore summit and Trump's proclamation that North Korea intends to denuclearize, North Korea has built structures to obscure the entrance to at least one warhead storage facility, according to the officials.

The U.S. has also observed North Korean workers moving warheads out of the facility, the officials said, though they would not speculate on where the warheads went.


NBC News exclusive: North Korea producing new nuclear weapons
SEP.10.201801:15
One former senior U.S. official said North Korea frequently moves equipment around to hinder foreign intelligence gathering. "They're trying to move them around so our sensors are confused," the official said.


U.S. intelligence assesses North Korea could produce five to eight new nuclear weapons in 2018, according to three current and former senior U.S. officials. That pace is virtually identical to their assessment of the regime's production of about six per year prior to the Trump-Kim summit.


Bruce W. Bennett, a senior international/defense researcher at the RAND Corporation and an expert in Northeast Asia military affairs, agrees with that assessment of the pace of production.

"Since the beginning of 2018, Kim has surrendered and dismantled no nuclear weapons, but has likely built five to nine new nuclear weapons. So he has not frozen his nuclear program and he has certainly not been denuclearizing; instead, he has been nuclearizing."


The Trump administration has launched what it calls a "maximum pressure" campaign against North Korea in response.
'WE WILL GET IT DONE TOGETHER!'
Public rhetoric, meanwhile, has a different tone. After his June meeting with Kim in Singapore Trump said, "There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea."


Trump tweeted a "thank you" to Kim on Thursday for proclaiming his "unwavering faith" after a South Korean official reported Kim wanted to denuclearize before the end of Trump's first term. The South Korean official said Kim emphasized "that he has never said anything negative about President Trump."

"We will get it done together!," tweeted Trump.

Quote:
[/url]Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump





Kim Jong Un of North Korea proclaims “unwavering faith in President Trump.” Thank you to Chairman Kim. We will get it done together!
6:58 AM - Sep 6, 2018

• 
  110K
• 
  61.1K people are talking about this
  

Twitter Ads info and privacy



Friday morning, Fox News aired a taped interview with Trump in which he insisted, "Kim Jong Un said very nice things. He said we want to get denuclearization during the Trump administration."


On Sunday, North Korea held its annual Foundation Day military parade to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the founding of the nation on Sept. 9. In past years, the Kim regime has used the parade to show off missiles and new technology.


This year, however, North Korea did not display any ICBMs. On Twitter, Trump said “experts” were heralding the absence as a sign of the Kim regime’s “commitment to denuclearization.” He thanked Kim and called the lack of missiles a “very positive statement.”

“We will both prove everyone wrong! There is nothing like good dialogue from two people that like each other!”

Quote:
Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump





North Korea has just staged their parade, celebrating 70th anniversary of founding, without the customary display of nuclear missiles. Theme was peace and economic development. “Experts believe that North Korea cut out the nuclear missiles to show President Trump......
11:21 AM - Sep 9, 2018

• 
  81.5K
• 
  31.2K people are talking about this
  

Twitter Ads info and privacy

Quote:
Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump





...its commitment to denuclearize.” @FoxNews This is a big and very positive statement from North Korea. Thank you To Chairman Kim. We will both prove everyone wrong! There is nothing like good dialogue from two people that like each other! Much better than before I took office.
11:31 AM - Sep 9, 2018

• 
  68.6K
• 
  32K people are talking about this
  

Twitter Ads info and privacy



A spokesperson for the National Security Council said, however, that Trump is personally directing the pressure campaign against North Korea. 

“The president closely directs every aspect of the administration's DPRK policy including the negotiations and the pressure campaign. He is clear-eyed about the challenges and sees this as a unique and fleeting opportunity to use diplomacy to achieve our objectives.”


But North Korea's recent actions have challenged the Trump team's pressure campaign, and now the administration is looking for ways to bolster it.


The first sign of the shift will be at sea, officials said, where an international maritime coalition will step up its efforts to expose ships and nations that are evading sanctions with illegal transfers of goods between ships at sea, according to three senior U.S. officials.


Trump calls off talks with North Korea over lack of 'sufficient progress'
AUG.24.201803:12

[url=https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=Trump%20calls%20off%20talks%20with%20North%20Korea%20over%20lack%20of%20%27sufficient%20progress%27&via=nbcnews&url=https://www.msnbc.com/craig-melvin/watch/trump-calls-of-talks-with-north-korea-over-lack-of-sufficient-progress-1305843267988&original_referer=https://www.msnbc.com/craig-melvin/watch/trump-calls-of-talks-with-north-korea-over-lack-of-sufficient-progress-1305843267988]
NBC News reported Wednesday that China has escalated both legal and illegal trade with North Korea since the Singapore summit, in defiance of sanctions. North Korean trucks are once again rolling over the border, Chinese tourists are flying to Pyongyang, and China has accepted shipments of North Korean coal by sea. With China relaxing its enforcement of sanctions, the U.S. will be hard-pressed to find leverage against North Korea.


The international coalition, which includes military ships from the U.S., UK, France, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and South Korea, has already been patrolling the waters for several months, but there is now an effort to "go active," according to one senior U.S. official, meaning the coalition would begin to publicly denounce individuals who violate the sanctions at sea.


"There is an interest in getting more ships and aircraft to participate," one senior U.S. official said, adding that the hope is partner nations will also enhance their presence. "It is about enhanced coordination on U.N. sanctions enforcement," the official said, including sharing intelligence with partners.


Japan on Friday announced plans for its naval forces — along with the United States — to operate out of Kadena air base to monitor and conduct surveillance of “illicit maritime activities” by North Korea, but did not offer more details.

James Faeh, a former Pentagon desk officer focused on Korea, warns that more sanctions and shaming those who violate sanctions is not the way to force North Korea to denuclearize.

"This is highly unlikely to work," he said. "Keeping pressure on North Korea in a tangible way is the right path forward, but that has to involve outreach to other countries in the region and holding their feet to the fire about their cooperation with the brutal North Korean regime."


POMPEO WENT INTO TALKS A SKEPTIC
It's unclear whether new intelligence about North Korea's continued nuclear activity played a role in Trump's last-minute decision to pull Secretary of State Mike Pompeo from making a scheduled visit to Pyongyang for talks. Two people familiar with the matter said Pompeo, who'd become deeply familiar with the intelligence on Pyongyang as CIA director, went into talks with North Korea deeply skeptical that the effort would work, and the process has since only solidified his belief that it won't. Officials said he's far more optimistic that the U.S. could cut a deal with Iran.


A former senior administration official briefed on the negotiation process said of Pompeo pulling back his trip to Pyongyang: "They're confronted with mounting evidence on all fronts that the North Koreans aren't cooperating."

Another former senior administration official said Trump didn't want another news cycle with bad headlines out of North Korea before the midterms because that is one of his big foreign policy talking points. "It was increasingly obvious that the whole effort isn't going anywhere," the official said.

Pompeo was snubbed by the North Koreans during his last trip to Pyongyang and risked making another trip there with nothing to show for it, the official said. Pompeo named a special envoy to the North Korea issue, Steve Biegun, who is scheduled to visit Japan, China and South Korea next week in his new role.


The U.S. has yet to get China to play what administration officials see as a constructive role in diplomacy with North Korea. And Trump's outreach to Pyongyang has been complicated by strains in the U.S. relationship with South Korea.


From the administration's perspective, South Korea has made a series of diplomatic slights to Trump — from seating arrangements for Vice President Mike Pence at the Olympics to the decision to serve shrimp from a disputed region at Trump's state dinner. South Korea has also made an aggressive push for the administration to take certain steps as part of its North Korea diplomacy.


South Korean President Moon Jae-in has pressured the White House to sign off on a declaration ending the Korean War, a move Trump rebuffed this past summer. The rift between the two countries was papered over with the meeting between Trump and Kim, but has worsened now that diplomacy with Pyongyang is at a standstill.

Moon called Trump this week and is hoping for a meeting with the president this fall in the U.S. He's also pushing for re-engagement between Trump and Kim. While there's renewed talk among administration officials of a possible second meeting this fall between Trump and Kim, it's unclear how serious the discussions are.


South Korean and North Korean officials are scheduled to hold two days of high-level talks in Pyongyang starting Sept. 18. The following week Trump is scheduled to be in New York for the annual gathering of world leaders at the United Nations General Assembly.