Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 09:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Constant rancor he constantly gives reason for. The "constant rancor" isn't an argument like "constant unfair rancor" would be. I don't think I was unfair. Is anything unfair?

Also, I really wonder how "my standards" aren't shared. These aren't "leftist" standards at all. How is "don't call the media the biggest enemy of the state" somehow just "my" standard? Or "don't lie about the outcome of the summit by declaring threat eliminated"? Really, those aren't "your" standards, or presidential standards? Just mine?



Yes. For some reason, those exploding heads trump all other things. Therein might lie one reason for all that.
(Mine wouldn't explode... I'd just be wondering about this particular reasoning for doing so.)

Oh btw. for me it's not just about going on and on about why Trump's a bad president (sure I think that), more about the guys that go on and on about why he's not. Now including the "well, he sits in the white house, so his ways are the right ways" defense and the "he plays to his uninformed base, hence he knows what he's doing, and what more could one ask of a president"-defense. I can't help but wonder how that doesn't sound absurd to anyone.

No one in this back and forth has stated he sits in the White House because his ways are right. They have proven successful and despite what he tweets and how "justifiably" angry it makes folks; things are currently going pretty good in the old USA. And of course you went on and on about how bad of a President you think he is. Re-read your post,

[Dill]

(06-14-2018, 07:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think you're missing the point. You're just going on and on about why Trump is a bad President by your standards and my point was he knows exactly what he is doing. Also "because of guys like you" many fence riders are moved to his side because of the constant rancor displayed by the opposition. For instance I've never worn an item of MAGA in my life, but if this forum ever had a get together I'd most likely be decked out in it just to see the heads explode.

A guy who did not know about the one China policy or the nuclear triad, and who thinks we should have "taken the oil" knows exactly what he was doing?

YOUR standard is the issue here--embodied in the claim that Trump knows what he was doing because he landed in the White House. So his "ways have proven successful" even if tweets sexist insults to women. Most Trump opponents like myself will grant that he knew how his base "works" when he called Mexicans rapists and demanded a Muslim ban. No one disputes that. Landing in the White House, with some help from Comey and Putin, proves that. Sort of. But that this "worked" doesn't mean it was good for the country and it doesn't mean he knows how to manage the Korean problem, or how to coordinate trade with allies, or lead his party in Congress to get bills passed. And that is what people are talking about when they say he doesn't know "how things work."  

Fence riders are not "moved to his side" because Trump is criticized for behaving badly.  There is NO EVIDENCE of this whatsoever. No sensible person says "Gee, I think paying off porn stars from slush funds funded by Russian oligarchs is really bad; and I don't like how Trump insults veterans and our allies, ignores the Russian threat, picks bad advisors and treats them badly, and is fouling up years of achieved diplomacy, but by god I am going to vote for him if people don't stop complaining about his daily insults to world leaders, celebrities, and ordinary people; I don't care if four more years of Trump hurts the country."  No doubt, many long time members of the party of family values are tired of hearing about the daily sleaze and missteps, but at least 15% of them remember they were once the party of personal accountability and know better than to blame the messenger. 

The Trump defenders have made a choice--and it stresses them because their guy makes their party--and their judgment--look bad and dems look good. CNN and MSNBC run hilarious montages of Republicans criticizing Obama for a WILLINGNESS to talk to Kim or running the most scandal ridden administration ever. Not to mention footage of cabinet members one by one praising and thanking the president for the privilege of serving him. Hence the rampant false equivalence and all the effort to disconnect assessment of Trump from his actual performance in office and the gaslighting. (I just watched he WH press secretary explain why Democrats are the reason children of refugees are now separated from their mothers at the border). His promises and unverified claims get to count as "accomplishments." God uses "imperfect tools" to achieve his plan, which includes large tax cuts for the top 1%.

Some voted for Trump because they too did not know about the one China policy or the nuclear triad, and because they too thought it "made sense" to keep the oil, (not to mention build the wall). 'Bout time we had a STRONG leader. And so they take it personally when he is called out for not knowing how things work--"shaking things up" or "going against the establishment" as they put it. They wish the "fake news"/free press would shut up about all that. If Trump makes it to 2020, they are going vote for him again just to see liberals heads explode. 

Not criticizing Trump isn't going to fix this national mess. If anything might push some fence riders over it is reminding people of what they once claimed to stand for; this is a better option than helping people get comfortable with bad choices.


 

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 11:18 PM)Dill Wrote: A guy who did not know about the one China policy or the nuclear triad, and who thinks we should have "taken the oil" knows exactly what he was doing?

YOUR standard is the issue here--embodied in the claim that Trump knows what he was doing because he landed in the White House. So his "ways have proven successful" even if tweets sexist insults to women. Most Trump opponents like myself will grant that he knows how to play his base. No one disputes that. Landing in the White House, with some help from Comey and Putin, proves that. Sort of. But it doesn't mean he knows how to manage the Korean problem, or how to coordinate trade with allies, or lead his party in Congress to get bills passed. And that is what people are talking about when they say he doesn't know "how things work."  

Fence riders are not "moved to his side" because Trump is criticized for behaving badly.  There is NO EVIDENCE of this whatsoever. No sensible person says "Gee, I think paying off porn stars from slush funds funded by Russian oligarchs is really bad; and I don't like how Trump insults veterans and our allies, ignores the Russian threat, picks bad advisors and treats them badly, and is fouling up years of achieved diplomacy, but by god I am going to vote for him if people don't stop complaining about his daily insults to world leaders, celebrities, and ordinary people; I don't care whether this hurts the country."  No doubt, many long time members of the party of family values are tired of hearing about the daily sleaze and missteps, but at least 15% of them remember they were once the party of personal accountability and know better than to blame the messenger. 

The Trump defenders have made a choice--and it stresses them because their guy makes their party look bad and dems look good. CNN and MSNBC run hilarious montages of Republicans criticizing Obama for a WILLINGNESS to talk to Kim or running the most scandal ridden administration ever. Not to mention footage of cabinet members one by one praising and thanking the president for the privilege of serving him. The WH press secretary blatantly lies to the press and refuses to acknowledge fact based questions. Hence the rampant false equivalence and all the effort to disconnect assessment of Trump from his actual performance in office. His promises and unverified claims get to count as "accomplishments." God uses "imperfect tools" to achieve his plan, which includes large tax cuts for the top 1%.

Some voted for Trump because they too did not know about the one China policy or the nuclear triad, and because they too though it "made sense" to keep the oil, (not to mention build the wall) and so they take it personally when he is called out for not knowing how things work--"shaking things up" or "going against the establishment" as they put it. They wish the "fake news"/free press would shut up about all that. If Trump makes it to 2020, they are going vote for him again just to see liberals heads explode. 


 

Keep fighting the good fight.

[Dill]

(06-14-2018, 11:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Keep fighting the good fight.

tl;dr?

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 11:44 PM)Dill Wrote: tl;dr?

I've read it 1,000 times before.

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 03:49 PM)jj22 Wrote: It's not a gesture of respect. Can you imagine the POTUS saluting the Nazi Germany Army? The Japan Army? Al Queda commanders? I'm not saying Trump knew what he was doing. I'm sure he probably didn't. But it's the fear many had with him going over there. He wasn't prepared. And now there's pics everywhere of the American President saluting the NK commander whose sole mission is the destruction of America and Japan.. It's a shocking moment in American history, and I doubt he'd do it to our Allied commanders (which is another problem with how friendly he was with Kim and company).

There's no saluting the enemy army by the Commander n Chief of the United States of America. If you aren't outraged, you don't understand the significance of the salute from the POTUS, and you really have a lack of respect for our military and vets. That's why you don't see many people defending it, and many vets speaking out against it.

I would like to speak with any vet that has issues (much less outraged) with this. The dude saluted Trump first and he simply returned the courtesy. Basically he showed respect to POTUS and POTUS returned the honor. The origins of the salute go back to show fellow combatants that your hands are empty (unarmed). If any veteran is "outraged" by this gesture then I can only assume they chose pettiness over a life of service.

[hollodero]

(06-14-2018, 10:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No one in this back and forth has stated he sits in the White House because his ways are right. They have proven successful and despite what he tweets and how "justifiably" angry it makes folks; things are currently going pretty good in the old USA.

Well, you brought up his sitting in the white house, that's why I picked that up. "He knows perfectly well how it works and has a shinny white house to show for it", you said, and also "It is a measuring stick that worked all the way to the White House." As I said, I challenge that logic, as it seems to suggest reaching the presidency is proof enough of Trump knowing his way and doing things right - when in fact the thing he demonstrably knows is how to play to his base who doesn't find NK on a map. Your words, not mine.

I can't quite challenge that logic without expanding, or else my words get misconstrued or misinterpreted. Is it too long, sure. :)
That the US is doing good to me is a way more plausible point than the previous ones - if it's actually true. Sure, the economy looks good. I feel much of it is inherited and you put the costs for your current economic growth on the credit card though. That, as much as the environment or foreign relations, might very well make things worse for the US in the long term. I don't know what Trump espec... ok, whatever. NK.

As for summit things, tweeting "threat eliminated" still is a huge lie and quite irresponsible to do. I can't be blamed for bringing that up, Trump can be blamed for doing this kind of things. I'm not willing to see that as some kind of new normal or as justified only because his base ate it up and cheered. It's still a colossal falsehood. I don't think saying that has anything to do with my standards, your standards.

[Belsnickel]

(06-14-2018, 10:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt and that's why I said he absolutely gets it with his NK declaration. Now is he ignorant in the way of politics? Who knows. I will say he doesn't do it the traditional way and may be ignorant of how it's "supposed" to be done

Folks writing him off as an ignorant buffoon are playing right into his game. I've grown tired of the narcissistic manner in which he governs and will let my voice be heard in 2020. Hopefully there is a better alternative. If not we very well may endure another 4 years of his narcissism. IMO there are much worse things in the world that a loud mouth POTUS.

It may surprise you that I agree with this post, other than being more confident in his ignorance of governance. It's one of the reasons why I get frustrated with things like the outrage over the salute. I recognize that he is a showman, it's really what he has been his entire life. Campaigning is showmanship and so he is good at that.

The problem is that so many have been so outraged at the petty shit, that when there are legitimate concerns over policy the defenders or Trump lump those concerns in with the pettiness.

[Griever]

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392430-trump-i-want-americans-to-listen-to-me-like-north-koreans-listen-to

I think its time someone tell trump why North Koreans "listen to Kim"

unless of course, trump knows and is basically saying he wants to execute people who dont agree with him

[BmorePat87]

(06-15-2018, 10:20 AM)Griever Wrote: http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/392430-trump-i-want-americans-to-listen-to-me-like-north-koreans-listen-to

I think its time someone tell trump why North Koreans "listen to Kim"

unless of course, trump knows and is basically saying he wants to execute people who dont agree with him

He later said he was kidding. Most people don't like when the American President spends 3 days praising a dictator and a regime that starves and kills its citizens and then joking that he wishes he was a dictator. 

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2018, 07:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  Also "because of guys like you" many fence riders are moved to his side because of the constant rancor displayed by the opposition.

This just is not true at all.  Not a single person has switched to his side because they feel like he is being picked on too much.  That is ridiculous.  The only thing that has raised his support is when he gave tax breaks.

All he has done since he first started campaigning was mocking and insulting anyone who disagreed with him.  That is his style.  You can't blame people who insult someone who lives by the insult.  The only people who feel like he is being unfairly "picked on" are the people that liked him from the beginning.

[Griever]

(06-15-2018, 10:57 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: He later said he was kidding. Most people don't like when the American President spends 3 days praising a dictator and a regime that starves and kills its citizens and then joking that he wishes he was a dictator. 

I'm sure the usual suspects here won't find an issue with that he said

[jj22]

(06-15-2018, 12:16 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I would like to speak with any vet that has issues (much less outraged) with this. The dude saluted Trump first and he simply returned the courtesy. Basically he showed respect to POTUS and POTUS returned the honor. The origins of the salute go back to show fellow combatants that your hands are empty (unarmed). If any veteran is "outraged" by this gesture then I can only assume they chose pettiness over a life of service.

A POTUS doesn't return it back. Obama never did. Bush/Clinton never did. Reagan never did to Iran. That's desperate spin from Trump supporters looking for excuses. You give a thumbs up or shake their hand like Obama did (and got slammed for by the same people turning a blind eye to Trump saluting a General of an enemy army). Veterans are outraged, and you can find their responses on Twitter etc if you really want to. But you probably don't because you don't want to see anything wrong with it. I'm over arguing about it tho. You think any POTUS would have returned the Heil Hitler to Hitler meeting him prior to the war? Saluted a General of AL Queda or ISIS? Exactly. Watch videos of how our military handled the surrender of Japan aboard the USS Missouri after the war. No one return saluted them during their meeting. These people's sole mission is the destruction of America. Feel free to salute those who want America blown off the map tho while slamming black athletes for kneeling during some song from the 1800's.

Trump is a disgrace on multiple fronts, but he shouldn't be held at a different standard because you guys accept that he's a disaster. Or spin as his brilliance because he's the only fool to do something like that. That's not an excuse in my book. We must hold all Presidents to the same standard, and quit excusing Trump for doing what all other Presidents new better, were better prepared, and more knowledgeable about governing.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-12-2018, 05:26 PM)Millhouse Wrote: The common sense answer should be the first option as denuclearizing NK is the top priority over all else. 

Sorry, but if it means them having nukes while committing human rights violations, or not having nukes while committing human rights violations, I'll take them just not having nukes. Sometimes we cant have all the cake and eat it too, or however that saying goes.

Correct, but it's also been shown that try as you might, some Leaders just won't go along with Human Violations rules. But bringing them to the table can actually have a positive effect in the long run. I'd rather take my chances that once they are doing better economically that their will not be as many violations as before. These things can't happen overnight, it takes time.

[*bfine32*]

(06-15-2018, 11:22 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This just is not true at all.  Not a single person has switched to his side because they feel like he is being picked on too much.  That is ridiculous.  The only thing that has raised his support is when he gave tax breaks.

All he has done since he first started campaigning was mocking and insulting anyone who disagreed with him.  That is his style.  You can't blame people who insult someone who lives by the insult.  The only people who feel like he is being unfairly "picked on" are the people that liked him from the beginning.

If you don't think folks are getting turned off of the Left because of the constant rancor, then by all means keep it up.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-15-2018, 12:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: Obama never did.

I'm not sure if this is true, but considering Obama RARELY saluted American military members, it wouldn't surprise me if he NEVER saluted foreign military members.

On a more serious note, considering how outraged you are at what Trump did, I have to assume you were even MORE livid after Obama bowed - BOWED - to a Saudi king!

[fredtoast]

(06-15-2018, 01:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you don't think folks are getting turned off of the Left because of the constant rancor, then by all means keep it up.

Anyone who gets turned off by rancor is not going to the party of Trump.

People may be getting turned off but they are not switching sides.  Trump is the most insulting, mocking, denigrating person to ever hold the office of President.  People who don't like insults and ass hole behavior are not going to turn to Trump.  That just is not happening.

And it sound kind of silly to claim Democrats should not hurl aggressive insults at the same time you brag that Trump's campaign strategy was a success.

[*bfine32*]

(06-15-2018, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Anyone who gets turned off by rancor is not going to the party of Trump.

People may be getting turned off but they are not switching sides.  Trump is the most insulting, mocking, denigrating person to ever hold the office of President.  People who don't like insults and ass hole behavior are not going to turn to Trump.  That just is not happening.

And it sound kind of silly to claim Democrats should not hurl aggressive insults at the same time you brag that Trump's campaign strategy was a success.

As I said keep it up. Perhaps you can beat him at his own game.

[Millhouse]

(06-15-2018, 12:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: A POTUS doesn't return it back. Obama never did. Bush/Clinton never did. Reagan never did to Iran. That's desperate spin from Trump supporters looking for excuses. You give a thumbs up or shake their hand like Obama did (and got slammed for by the same people turning a blind eye to Trump saluting a General of an enemy army). Veterans are outraged, and you can find their responses on Twitter etc if you really want to. But you probably don't because you don't want to see anything wrong with it. I'm over arguing about it tho. You think any POTUS would have returned the Heil Hitler to Hitler meeting him prior to the war? Saluted a General of AL Queda or ISIS? Exactly. Watch videos of how our military handled the surrender of Japan aboard the USS Missouri after the war. No one return saluted them during their meeting. These people's sole mission is the destruction of America. Feel free to salute those who want America blown off the map tho while slamming black athletes for kneeling during some song from the 1800's.

Trump is a disgrace on multiple fronts, but he shouldn't be held at a different standard because you guys accept that he's a disaster. Or spin as his brilliance because he's the only fool to do something like that. That's not an excuse in my book. We must hold all Presidents to the same standard, and quit excusing Trump for doing what all other Presidents new better, were better prepared, and more knowledgeable about governing.

Obama bowed to the Saudi King back in 2009, and he rightfully got criticized for it, as U.S. Presidents dont bow to Kings.

Personally I could care less about the salute, because Trump was saluted first, which to me was a sign of respect from the NK general and Trump returned it, and he had literally a second to think about it.

There are many things to rightfully to bash Trump for, this isnt one of them or at the least at the bottom of the list.

[*bfine32*]

(06-15-2018, 12:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: A POTUS doesn't return it back. Obama never did. Bush/Clinton never did. Reagan never did to Iran. That's desperate spin from Trump supporters looking for excuses. You give a thumbs up or shake their hand like Obama did (and got slammed for by the same people turning a blind eye to Trump saluting a General of an enemy army). Veterans are outraged, and you can find their responses on Twitter etc if you really want to. But you probably don't because you don't want to see anything wrong with it. I'm over arguing about it tho. You think any POTUS would have returned the Heil Hitler to Hitler meeting him prior to the war? Saluted a General of AL Queda or ISIS? Exactly. Watch videos of how our military handled the surrender of Japan aboard the USS Missouri after the war. No one return saluted them during their meeting. These people's sole mission is the destruction of America. Feel free to salute those who want America blown off the map tho while slamming black athletes for kneeling during some song from the 1800's.

Trump is a disgrace on multiple fronts, but he shouldn't be held at a different standard because you guys accept that he's a disaster. Or spin as his brilliance because he's the only fool to do something like that. That's not an excuse in my book. We must hold all Presidents to the same standard, and quit excusing Trump for doing what all other Presidents new better, were better prepared, and more knowledgeable about governing.

No doubt it's a "desperate spin from Trump supporters looking for excuses". Yet you go on to compare it a president giving the Heil Hitler sign, a surrender of a military conflict, and member of terrorist organizations, as opposed to sovereign Nations.

Maybe, just maybe it might not be the "Trump supporter that is digging for ways to make this nothing into something. As I said Trump went to shake dude's hand, dude saluted Trump, Trump instinctively returned the Salute.  I don't do twitter so I cannot see the veteran outrage to which you are referring; however, I am retired Military, and work with active, former, and future service members daily. I haven't seen this outrage to which you refer. But if they think someone that has been a businessman for 70 of his 72 years on earth should know as much about Military customs and courtesies as they, then I question their motives.

Now disrespecting the Salute by Saluting a US Service member with a coffee cup in your hand, is an entirely different subject IMO.

Personally, I do not see why the president should Salute unless he/she is a former service member.