Trump on undocumented immigrants: 'These aren't people. These are animals.'

[Belsnickel]

(06-11-2018, 06:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ……..or if folks didn't bring their families across the border illegally. 


But I'm with you, just send the hole family back. 

The father that committed suicide recently after being separated from his family, that wasn't an illegal border entry. We are splitting up families that come here seeking asylum, splitting up refugee families. There is a difference between the illegal border crossings and those seeking asylum.

[*bfine32*]

(06-11-2018, 07:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The father that committed suicide recently after being separated from his family, that wasn't an illegal border entry. We are splitting up families that come here seeking asylum, splitting up refugee families. There is a difference between the illegal border crossings and those seeking asylum.

So that guy didn't enter the country illegally? 

[Belsnickel]

(06-11-2018, 08:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So that guy didn't enter the country illegally? 

My understanding is that he approached the border seeking asylum, which is not an illegal border crossing.

[*bfine32*]

(06-11-2018, 08:44 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: My understanding is that he approached the border seeking asylum, which is not an illegal border crossing.

Pretty sure Marco A. Munoz and his family crossed the border illegally. 

As to the bigger point what do folks want:

Let the children go to jail with the parent

Let the parents remain here illegally

Return the entire family immediately

Personally, I'm for sending them immediately back to where they came from and get in the legal line. My stance has never changed on this.

[hollodero]

(06-12-2018, 12:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Of course you would think that.  Just like everyone lese in your echo chamber.  But "seeking asylum" is not illegal.

When an immigrant turns himself in seeking asylum they are to be processed for an interview with an asylum officer, not separated from their family and thrown in jail.

OK how does this work in the US? Here, a foreign national (without proper documentation, a visa or such) crossing the border still commits an illegal act. When it's an asylum seeker, we do follow a process that's pretty much as you described it, but the border crossing still is illegal.
Thing is, they have hardly a "legal" way to enter, so it's more or less a necessity to do it illegally. Which makes little sense, but that's how we roll.

That the US forcefully separates families sonds pretty grim to me too. We don't do that, and we're not too gentle.

[Belsnickel]

(06-12-2018, 01:06 PM)hollodero Wrote: OK how does this work in the US? Here, a foreign national (without proper documentation, a visa or such) crossing the border still commits an illegal act. When it's an asylum seeker, we do follow a process that's pretty much as you described it, but the border crossing still is illegal.
Thing is, they have hardly a "legal" way to enter, so it's more or less a necessity to do it illegally. Which makes little sense, but that's how we roll.

That the US forcefully separates families sonds pretty grim to me too. We don't do that, and we're not too gentle.

Bfine was correct in that it was an illegal border crossing. My information had been incorrect, that he approached the border seeking asylum, but he crossed over and turned himself in. How it works for you is similar to what we do here.

[Belsnickel]

So, you know what irritates me about the whole conversation going on about the family separations? First, it isn't just a Trump thing, the Trump administration has ramped it up and weaponized it, but this isn't a new thing. Second, Trump can stop this at any time. He and his administration just needs to stop lying. But my third, and probably biggest, issue is that all of these lawmakers from both sides of the aisle are just running at the mouth calling for Trump to stop this when they have the power to stop it. If all of these lawmakers are so unhappy with this action, then craft a bill that is veto proof and send it to his desk. If the lawmakers aren't willing or able to do this, then they are complicit in this policy decision and they need to shut their mouths.

[BmorePat87]

(06-18-2018, 08:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you know what irritates me about the whole conversation going on about the family separations? First, it isn't just a Trump thing, the Trump administration has ramped it up and weaponized it, but this isn't a new thing. Second, Trump can stop this at any time. He and his administration just needs to stop lying. But my third, and probably biggest, issue is that all of these lawmakers from both sides of the aisle are just running at the mouth calling for Trump to stop this when they have the power to stop it. If all of these lawmakers are so unhappy with this action, then craft a bill that is veto proof and send it to his desk. If the lawmakers aren't willing or able to do this, then they are complicit in this policy decision and they need to shut their mouths.

I have to wonder if Melania's statement is part of the Trump lie. 

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 08:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I have to wonder if Melania's statement is part of the Trump lie. 

Absolutely. The staff run that, she doesn't. Her staff tried to craft a message that was softer than his message, but wasn't completely counter to it. The FLOTUS staff isn't going to do anything messaging wise without coordinating with the POTUS staff.

[*bfine32*]

(06-18-2018, 08:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you know what irritates me about the whole conversation going on about the family separations? First, it isn't just a Trump thing, the Trump administration has ramped it up and weaponized it, but this isn't a new thing. Second, Trump can stop this at any time. He and his administration just needs to stop lying. But my third, and probably biggest, issue is that all of these lawmakers from both sides of the aisle are just running at the mouth calling for Trump to stop this when they have the power to stop it. If all of these lawmakers are so unhappy with this action, then craft a bill that is veto proof and send it to his desk. If the lawmakers aren't willing or able to do this, then they are complicit in this policy decision and they need to shut their mouths.

I was listening to an interview this AM. Not sure with who or the media; as it was just background noise. But he said The only option POTUS currently has under the current law is to separate or release to the interior. Says the senate cannot get the 60 votes they require to pass legislation because of political divide.  

So I ask the left the same question I've asked earlier. What do you want to see happen:

Immediate deportation of the entire family
The children imprisoned with the parent
Ignore the law and release the family into the interior

[Dill]

(06-18-2018, 12:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I was listening to an interview this AM. Not sure with who or the media; as it was just background noise. But he said The only option POTUS currently has under the current law is to separate or release to the interior. Says the senate cannot get the 60 votes they require to pass legislation because of political divide.  

So I ask the left the same question I've asked earlier. What do you want to see happen:

Immediate deportation of the entire family
The children imprisoned with the parent
Ignore the law and release the family into the interior

No point in asking "the left" since they control nothing in the U.S., not even the Democratic party.

But if you ask any leftist, all of your options are better than separating children from families.

The only point of separation is to "send a message," and a very cruel one at that.

[Griever]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/trump-administration-launches-denaturalization-effort-to-strip-citizenship-from-those-suspected-of-irregularities.html

I hope they start with Melania's papers first, but I doubt it

[*Nately120*]

We lock up the children of people who enter this country illegally, but we don't lock up people like Trump who knowingly hire illegals and lure them here. Astounding how that works.

Anyways, I find it baffling how anyone who legitimately believes he/she will one day stand face to face and be judged by Jesus Christ can support this sort of thing. Our society just seems beyond delusional and lost to me, but I'm quite the pessimist so feel free to ignore me.

News flash, right-wingers...YOUR leader chose to lure these "dangerous animals" into this country because he didn't want to pay actual American citizens. How do you justify that? Maybe if Trump brought a bunch of members of ISIS to this country to work for him you'd wake up? Maybe. Ok, I've got to bail on this...this forum isn't good for my blood pressure.

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 12:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I was listening to an interview this AM. Not sure with who or the media; as it was just background noise. But he said The only option POTUS currently has under the current law is to separate or release to the interior. Says the senate cannot get the 60 votes they require to pass legislation because of political divide.  

So I ask the left the same question I've asked earlier. What do you want to see happen:

Immediate deportation of the entire family
The children imprisoned with the parent
Ignore the law and release the family into the interior

The last line, "ignore the law," is not accurate. Being released into the interior to await their court date is what was done prior to Trump, and it was following the law. This situation was created because of prosecutorial discretion.

What should be done is continuing to release them to the interior to await their court date, but assigning more resources to the system for processing asylum seekers since that is what the vast majority of these are. The backlog of over a year in this process is the biggest problem in all of this and if Congress were to appropriate more resources for it then it wouldn't be as big of an issue. That's what should be done. That would be the humanitarian thing to do. If they don't meet the requirements for asylum, then send them back. That's fine. But we should give them a fair shake at it and not treat them as we currently are.

[*bfine32*]

(06-19-2018, 10:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The last line, "ignore the law," is not accurate. Being released into the interior to await their court date is what was done prior to Trump, and it was following the law. This situation was created because of prosecutorial discretion.

What should be done is continuing to release them to the interior to await their court date, but assigning more resources to the system for processing asylum seekers since that is what the vast majority of these are. The backlog of over a year in this process is the biggest problem in all of this and if Congress were to appropriate more resources for it then it wouldn't be as big of an issue. That's what should be done. That would be the humanitarian thing to do. If they don't meet the requirements for asylum, then send them back. That's fine. But we should give them a fair shake at it and not treat them as we currently are.

Any asylum seeker should enter this country at a legal point of entry and request asylum. You cross the border illegally, regardless of the reason, you have broken the law and must face the consequences. This whole thing is just more of we shouldn't force people to obey the law and look to blame anyone else except for the person that is committing the crime.

Once word gets around that you cannot cross illegally and not be detained, more people will try to access this country through legal means. However, I do appreciate you answering the question; although, let them go is not an answer I agree with. That is ignoring the law and exercising prosecutorial discretion.

[Belsnickel]

(06-19-2018, 11:37 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Any asylum seeker should enter this country at a legal point of entry and request asylum. You cross the border illegally, regardless of the reason, you have broken the law and must face the consequences. This whole thing is just more of we shouldn't force people to obey the law and look to blame anyone else except for the person that is committing the crime.

Once word gets around that you cannot cross illegally and not be detained, more people will try to access this country through legal means. However, I do appreciate you answering the question; although, let them go is not an answer I agree with. That is ignoring the law and exercising prosecutorial discretion.

It is not ignoring the law. The law is that it is a class B misdemeanor for an illegal border entry that can result in either civil or criminal penalties. The prosecutorial discretion has been that civil or criminal part. Prior to the Trump administration, it has been handled as a civil penalty in these cases. These people would turn themselves in, receive a court date, and be released. That's the typical process for any misdemeanor offense. The problem is that because of the backlog the government has lost track of these people because it can take upwards of two years before they get to court. If we devote more resources to processing these requests and alleviate the backlog then it solves the problem. What I am talking about is not ignoring the law, no matter how many times you say it.

Also, I held off on answering until learning more about what was going on. The reason is because this is not a policy area I am especially familiar with and there is a ton of misinformation out there right now about what is going on.

[*bfine32*]

(06-19-2018, 11:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It is not ignoring the law. The law is that it is a class B misdemeanor for an illegal border entry that can result in either civil or criminal penalties. The prosecutorial discretion has been that civil or criminal part. Prior to the Trump administration, it has been handled as a civil penalty in these cases. These people would turn themselves in, receive a court date, and be released. That's the typical process for any misdemeanor offense. The problem is that because of the backlog the government has lost track of these people because it can take upwards of two years before they get to court. If we devote more resources to processing these requests and alleviate the backlog then it solves the problem. What I am talking about is not ignoring the law, no matter how many times you say it.

Also, I held off on answering until learning more about what was going on. The reason is because this is not a policy area I am especially familiar with and there is a ton of misinformation out there right now about what is going on.

And only one person bares the responsibility of these families being separated and that is the adults that bring their families into this country illegally. No matter how many times folks say otherwise.

[Belsnickel]

(06-19-2018, 12:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And only one person bares the responsibility of these families being separated and that is the adults that bring their families into this country illegally. No matter how many times folks say otherwise.

They made a choice, and they have a burden of responsibility for that choice that they made. The administration has a burden of responsibility for the choices they make, as well. When you make a choice, you have responsibility for the choice you make. I don't hold these families blameless, but I can't hold our administration blameless, either.

[*bfine32*]

(06-19-2018, 12:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They made a choice, and they have a burden of responsibility for that choice that they made. The administration has a burden of responsibility for the choices they make, as well. When you make a choice, you have responsibility for the choice you make. I don't hold these families blameless, but I can't hold our administration blameless, either.

I have no idea how someone could suggest the administration is doing something wrong. Unless of course you disagree with making crossing the border illegally a crime. They are doing the exact same thing with these children that they would with the child of a citizen if that parent was arrested for a crime. They first look to place them under the custody of family members.

It is the aspect of the left's mentality that I have always had the biggest issue with. These folks are committing a crime according to current law; yet, we paint them as a victim.

[Millhouse]

(06-18-2018, 08:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you know what irritates me about the whole conversation going on about the family separations? First, it isn't just a Trump thing, the Trump administration has ramped it up and weaponized it, but this isn't a new thing. Second, Trump can stop this at any time. He and his administration just needs to stop lying. But my third, and probably biggest, issue is that all of these lawmakers from both sides of the aisle are just running at the mouth calling for Trump to stop this when they have the power to stop it. If all of these lawmakers are so unhappy with this action, then craft a bill that is veto proof and send it to his desk. If the lawmakers aren't willing or able to do this, then they are complicit in this policy decision and they need to shut their mouths.

What irritates me the most is how so many people can get worked up and feel sorry for these illegal immigrant children, when at the same time there are numerous times the amount of children in the U.S. that are either homeless or living in horrible conditions. Depending on the study, that number is from the 100's of thousands to 2.5 million just a few years ago (just homeless children). Yet no one gets all worked up over them. But 2000 children at the border separated from parents that committed a crime by illegally crossing over, gasp!!