Voter fraud does not benefit Democrats

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-12-2020, 12:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Voter fraud should not be a partisan issue.

It's not a partisan issue.  the incorrect belief that it happens at a rate that could decide a presidential election is.

Would you consider creating fake mail-in ballot receptacles as voter fraud?

[*bfine32*]

(11-12-2020, 02:03 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: It's not a partisan issue.  the incorrect belief that it happens at a rate that could decide a presidential election is.

Would you consider creating fake mail-in ballot receptacles as voter fraud?

I would consider what you listed as voter fraud; I'm assuming you asked because it is something Conservatives did.


Like the saying goes: One death is too many

How many fraudulent votes is too many?

[JS-Steelerfan]

(11-12-2020, 02:03 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: It's not a partisan issue.  the incorrect belief that it happens at a rate that could decide a presidential election is.

That, and a lack of substantial evidence, at any rate.

[CKwi88]

(11-12-2020, 02:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I would consider what you listed as voter fraud; I'm assuming you asked because it is something Conservatives did.


Like the saying goes: One death is too many

How many fraudulent votes is too many?

Enough to impact an election.

[Belsnickel]

(11-12-2020, 02:38 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Enough to impact an election.

If we truly believe that every vote matters, then one instance of voter fraud is enough to impact an election.

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2020, 02:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Like the saying goes: One death is too many

I wish you would just make clear statements instead of speaking in vague platitudes.

Are you in favor of shutting down the entire country if it will save just one person from dying of Covid?  That is the same issue when we talk about extreme voting regulations that suppress legitimate votes.  If mail in voting allows one person to commit fraud then should we eliminate mail in voting for all people including servicemen serving over seas?

[*bfine32*]

(11-12-2020, 02:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I wish you would just make clear statements instead of speaking in vague platitudes.

Are you in favor of shutting down the entire country if it will save just one person from dying of Covid?  That is the same issue when we talk about extreme voting regulations that suppress legitimate votes.  If mail in voting allows one person to commit fraud then should we eliminate mail in voting for all people including servicemen serving over seas?

And I wish you would not make everything an argument.

No one said shut down anything. It doesn't mean we can't look for flaws which may allow fraudulent voting and look to implement safeguards moving forward. As much as trump spouts off about fraudulent voting; I firmly believe there's a population that would rather just turn the other way than to look into it.

Do I think there was enough fraudulent voting to shape this election? No. But I don't think folks should be motivated not to look just because Trump asserts there is.    

[*bfine32*]

(11-12-2020, 02:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If we truly believe that every vote matters, then one instance of voter fraud is enough to impact an election.

That one's going to be hard to dispute.

[*Nately120*]

(11-12-2020, 03:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do I think there was enough fraudulent voting to shape this election? No. But I don't think folks should be motivated not to look just because Trump asserts there is.    

I hear ya, I just think it is more of Trump breaking another unspoken rule of political etiquette.  Everyone is aware that our voting system that hinges upon human beings and machinery is as prone to error as any other aspect of life, but Trump is pointing it out and trying to use our collective "democracy works" assumptions and desire to just sweep stuff under the rug and pretend it's hunky dory to sow dissention and benefit himself at the cost of our national image.

Academically we all realize that anything that happens 150,000,000 times is going to have a percentage of errors and there are going to be people within that 150 million sample who are willing to miscount or fraudulently vote for their side.  The issue is someone with Trump's power convincing people that the system is completely broken and "the other side" is enthusiastically cheating as a rule.  That goes beyond voter fraud and into exerting an undue amount of influence upon the process and undermining the system itself.

That's my take.  Trump is less "this system is flawed and needs looked at" and more "the democrats are cheating, so we need to make sure I'm the winner regardless of what the numbers say because the numbers are automatically wrong."

[Lucidus]

(11-12-2020, 02:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If we truly believe that every vote matters, then one instance of voter fraud is enough to impact an election.

As an idealistic sentiment -- yes. As a pragmatic reality -- no.

[*Nately120*]

Side note, I recall that case in the 2016 election where a woman voted for Trump twice because she was worried the first vote would be changed to Hillary Clinton. I never quite got why she didn't just carry that logic/fear all the way and assume if she voted for Trump twice it would be changed to Hillary Clinton twice.

[fredtoast]

(11-12-2020, 03:16 PM)Nately120 Wrote:   Trump is less "this system is flawed and needs looked at" and more "the democrats are cheating, so we need to make sure I'm the winner regardless of what the numbers say because the numbers are automatically wrong."

This.

Like I said in the OP.  The right-wing media is not just saying we need to look at voter fraud.  Instead they are framing it as "Voter fraud only helps Democrats because they are the cheaters."

They don't really want to find voter fraud.  Instead they want to destroy the faith in the election process by making it look like the Democrats used voter fraud to steal the election.

That is why Trump is not filing any law suites in states that he won.  That is why Fox News is claiming that every dead person who voted helped Biden.

[Interceptor]

"Why have Trump and Republicans accepted the results from House and Senate elections, but not Presidential? Everything was on the same ballots." -- David Pakman

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-12-2020, 02:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I would consider what you listed as voter fraud; I'm assuming you asked because it is something Conservatives did.


Like the saying goes: One death is too many

How many fraudulent votes is too many?

Like I said earlier.  Voter fraud is not a partisan issue at all...The idea it has affected the outcome of a presidential election is. perfection is a wonderful thing to strive for but it's also a gremlin that will always out pace you.

[*Nately120*]

(11-12-2020, 03:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

Like I said in the OP.  The right-wing media is not just saying we need to look at voter fraud.  Instead they are framing it as "Voter fraud only helps Democrats because they are the cheaters."

They don't really want to find voter fraud.  Instead they want to destroy the faith in the election process by making it look like the Democrats used voter fraud to steal the election.

That is why Trump is not filing any law suites in states that he won.  That is why Fox News is claiming that every dead person who voted helped Biden.

Others have pointed out that republicans made great gains in the senate despite the "blue wave" that fired Trump.  Trump and his fans can say they are against voter fraud and all about ensuring election fairness all they like, but let's not pretend they aren't likely defining voter fraud as "a thing democrats do to win" rather than a more standard operational definition of it.

Maybe I just don't give them enough credit, but I'd wager the argument of Trump voters who are rallying hard for this would be that voter fraud is bad because it led to Trump losing.  If they actually give a damn about fairness I'd be more than a bit surprised.

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-12-2020, 02:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If we truly believe that every vote matters, then one instance of voter fraud is enough to impact an election.

Meh...hat's hyper idealism and completely outside of the realm of any realistic goal.  Does every vote matter?  Sure in an idealistic nature used to gain an emotional response to large groups of people in order to get them to vote in larger percentages.  mathematically does every vote matter?  No.

[*Nately120*]

(11-12-2020, 03:38 PM)Interceptor Wrote: "Why have Trump and Republicans accepted the results from House and Senate elections, but not Presidential? Everything was on the same ballots." -- David Pakman

Logic only works on people who are basing their own case upon logic, as well.  People who view the 2020 election as one that is overwhelmingly fraudulent aren't basing that belief upon logic or statistics, they're basing it upon what they want to be true and what Trump tells them is true.  The only thing that can talk them into believing this election was fair is Trump himself, and some people have even flat-out said that.

They'll accept the results of the election when Trump does.  My gut tells me Trump is going to build his brand and base through denial and claims of persecution, ergo, the 2020 election is going to go down in history as the election that many people "know" killed democracy.  You can't use logic on that. Hell, even if Trump admitted the 2020 election was fair and he legitimately lost there are people who are going to say that he's just saying that because he's being the bigger man and moving on.

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-12-2020, 03:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That one's going to be hard to dispute.

just did...LOL  

[Belsnickel]

(11-12-2020, 03:49 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: just did...LOL  

Well, not really. What you were saying was that not every vote really matters. My statement still remains true.

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-12-2020, 03:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, not really. What you were saying was that not every vote really matters. My statement still remains true.

Well, I guess I am arguing that the belief is impractical and simply a tool.  If pressed I doubt anyone believes that "every vote counts"  They probably believe that every vote should be counted.