Welcome Erick All!

[*ochocincos*]

(04-29-2024, 11:33 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - Even the pople who scout for a living have more misses than hits. I don't take offense that they, or anyone else, disagree with my opinion on the pick. It's fine!

Generally speaking, I think it's fair to assume a player can stay healthy.... unless they've had major injuries recently. All has had 2 major injuries in back to back college seasons.

- Erick All as a person seems to be a super high character guy. Erick All, IF HEALTHY, is a great prospect. I would have even been fine taking him with the 2nd 3rd round pick if he was healthy. IF HE WAS HEALTHY.

Only, he isn't healthy. He is currently unable to play full contact practice and most likely a pup candidate. The Bengals TE position and interior OL position could have used a player who can practice and provide depth and begin to develop NOW. There were players available who fit that description, which is why I don't like the selection.

Erick All ran a 4.8 40. That is what the reality is. Erick All today cannot hold up or block a NFL DE or LB. Eric All cannot successfully run NFL routes today in a practice, let alone a game.

That is reality. And he will most likely lose another season of development this year while other players on the Bengals and in the league continue to get better. He has no shot to come in and get some magical excellerated TE development. He will not be 100% - a REAL 100% - for a long time. 2025 is the best hope for that timeline - assuming everything goes perfect.The Bengals need 100% NOW. Not 2 years from now.

All has missed a TON of college playing/practice opportunities as well. I understand minor or freak injuries (Mims), but this player has had 2 major surgeries on completely unrelated things in back to back college seasons. He has barely played since 2021 - 3 games to start 2022, 7 in 2023.... And he wasn't just lighting people on fire then, either. He wasn't some college phenom at TE. Not even close.

Look at the history of college players who had major injuries/surguries the season leading up to the draft. The odds of doing well with a player hurt like that is so astronomically low. 4th round picks, IMO, should not be "hope" picks on a team as good as the Bengals.

In 2 years, I hope Erick All is a monster. He deserves to be cheered on to become his absolute best. I'm of the opinion that type of pick is for a team in a different situation or later rounds. To me, the 4th round pick would've been of much higher value if they took a player who is ready to actually compete and play by getting a full offseason of work in.

Until proven otherwise (which I hope I am) this was a total lighting on fire of a strong draft pick postion for a player they could have gotten a round or 2 later, when it makes more sense to gamble.

Picks I wasn't overly excited about when they were made:
- Kris Jenkins (I get the run defense, but the pass rush prowess isn't there...yet at least...What's his future long-term position plan?)
- Erick All (A lot of injury history. Cade Stover was still there, who I wanted)
- Josh Newton (This dude wasn't on my radar at all. Slow for a new-age CB)
- Cedric Johnson (Not very bendy or twitchy. Poor agility scores. I don't think he makes the team, or if he does will be a weekly inactive until injuries occur)
- Daijahn Anthony (Like Newton, no idea who this dude was)

Yes, I realize that's over 50% of the picks I wasn't really thrilled for.
I'm sure some of these guys will pleasantly surprise, even if just in a rotational/backup role long-term.
Not too bad though to be mostly good with Day 1 and Day 2 and really just have concerns with Day 3 picks. Day 3 is, for the most part, going to be highly subjective for excitement and essentially taking a shot in the dark when it comes to hitting on a pick.

[PDub80]

(04-29-2024, 02:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Picks I wasn't overly excited about when they were made:
- Kris Jenkins (I get the run defense, but the pass rush prowess isn't there...yet at least...What's his future long-term position plan?)
- Erick All (A lot of injury history. Cade Stover was still there, who I wanted)
- Josh Newton (This dude wasn't on my radar at all. Slow for a new-age CB)
- Cedric Johnson (Not very bendy or twitchy. Poor agility scores. I don't think he makes the team, or if he does will be a weekly inactive until injuries occur)
- Daijahn Anthony (Like Newton, no idea who this dude was)

Yes, I realize that's over 50% of the picks I wasn't really thrilled for.
I'm sure some of these guys will pleasantly surprise, even if just in a rotational/backup role long-term.
Not too bad though to be mostly good with Day 1 and Day 2 and really just have concerns with Day 3 picks. Day 3 is, for the most part, going to be highly subjective for excitement and essentially taking a shot in the dark when it comes to hitting on a pick.

See, I can read this and appreciate why you're not fawning all over the guys you listed.... while also acknowledging that you want them to succeed to the highest degree possible. Personally, I LOVED their draft. I think they did well. But I also think a good draft is 1 star, 1 excellent player, 1 very good starter, and 1 reliable backup. If they get that in any draft, it's an awesome draft.


Out of your list, I think Newton & Jenkins have a great chance to be one of the 4 guys in this draft who need to matter. Doesn't mean I don't like the others you've got down. But I like those 2 a lot. The DE is interesting to me. I think he is one of those guys who will benefit by being next to really good players. He had no help at Ole Miss.

Something people are missing here with this "It's just a XYZ round pick" is that the reason the Bengals had to let Bates go is also the reason they are probably struggling to pay Higgins,: The Bengals have had to pay a fortune to Free Agents due to not just missing star players... but whiffing on so many draft picks several years running that they have to go sign really high priced FAs to be able to have impact players.

Reader, Hendrickson, Hill, Bell, Brown Jr, The Body Guard, Cappa, Karras.


- Hell, their entire 2024 starting O line, save for a 4th round LG, is going to be FA signings. That is a position group of MONSTER NEED and the Bengals have missed horribly. That group cannot just get by like they do with LBs, TEs, & RBs and the Bengals have crapped the bed so bad at OL - to the tune of HUGE payouts to FAs - causing a ripple effect through the roster.


If something as simple as any 2 out of: Carman, Carter, Wren, Shelvin, Mike Jordan, Smith, Hill, & Adeniji were even avg to good draft picks, Jessie Bates would still be on the team and Higgins would have a long term deal. The money they are paying the guys who had to be signed to avoid the continued slaughter of JB9 is what is stopping them from signing high impact guys elsewhere. That doesn't mean I hate the O linemen that are on the team. Quite the opposite! They are NEEDED and doing valuable work. I just wish 2 of them could have been draft picks on rookie deals the last 3 seasons.


I don't think people realize that when the Bengals piss away 4th rounders that it kills them keeping star players. They are going to miss on plenty of draft picks. It happens.... But man, some of these drafts are DISGUSTINGLY awful.... And it hurts the Bengals to grab guys who won't be 100% going into the offseason.

[Destro]

(04-29-2024, 01:33 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Since you're a casual fan who just started watching the Bengals in the last 5 years I don't mean to bang a drum in your face so hard. Sorry for that.

- Being draft picks, it DOES matter when they are injured and how many major injuries/surgeries they have. That's the topic of discussion. Not "can guys can come back from injury". Like, no $#%*, Sherlock. Of course they can. But coming off of major injuries and missing the start to their pro career? The list of success stories like that is TINY.

The Bengals should not be throwing 4th rounders away - especially ones with  major surgeries and only 10 games played in the last 2 years - , yet they do nearly every draft. Duke Tobin is NOT good at finding consistent value there.

- Bengals found Geno Atkins in the 4th round. That's the lone bright spot in the last 25 years.

And you went back 14 years to find Geno Atkins in the fourth round.
I've been with the Bengals since they drafted Boomer Esiason out of Maryland. Meaning I've been through more to not to need to wet my pants over a draft pick.
You, on the other hand, have more posts than anyone else on this thread, complaining about a 4th round pick. 
You quoted me, as I was talking to someone else.
Shove off. Get out of your feelings. 

[PDub80]

(04-29-2024, 03:37 PM)Destro Wrote: And you went back 14 years to find Geno Atkins in the fourth round.
I've been with the Bengals since they drafted Boomer Esiason out of Maryland. Meaning I've been through more to not to need to wet my pants over a draft pick.
You, on the other hand, have more posts than anyone else on this thread, complaining about a 4th round pick. 
You quoted me, as I was talking to someone else.
Shove off. Get out of your feelings. 

THAT'S my point... The Bengals throw away these picks instead of finding reliable contributors.and then hitting a home run occasionally. You are clearly fine with it because, to you, 4th round and later draft picks don't matter at all. I mean, hell, let's just cut the draft off at 3 players because that's all the casuals know about, right?


Sorry you're upset.

[Destro]

[*Synric*]

(04-29-2024, 02:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: - Kris Jenkins (I get the run defense, but the pass rush prowess isn't there...yet at least...What's his future long-term position plan?)

Would have liked to see Jenkins get more opportunities. 

That Michigan Defensive Tackle room was loaded Mason Graham is going to be a top 15 maybe top 10 pick, Kenneth Grant who is probabaly going to end up the second best NT in the class, and Rayshaun Benny another highly recruited DT that was in a rotation with Jenkins, Graham, and Grant.

[XenoMorph]

(04-29-2024, 04:08 PM)Synric Wrote: Would have liked to see Jenkins get more opportunities. 

That Michigan Defensive Tackle room was loaded Mason Graham is going to be a top 15 probabaly top 10 pick, Kenneth Grant who is probabaky going to end up the second best NT in the class, and Rayshaun Benny another highly recruited DT that was in a rotation with Jenkins, Graham, and Grant.

i think i saw Jenkins might be Lb for Lb the strongest player in the draft.

While that doesnt always translate on the field im interested to see what that looks like in the NFL

[*ochocincos*]

(04-29-2024, 03:36 PM)PDub80 Wrote: See, I can read this and appreciate why you're not fawning all over the guys you listed.... while also acknowledging that you want them to succeed to the highest degree possible. Personally, I LOVED their draft. I think they did well. But I also think a good draft is 1 star, 1 excellent player, 1 very good starter, and 1 reliable backup. If they get that in any draft, it's an awesome draft.


Out of your list, I think Newton & Jenkins have a great chance to be one of the 4 guys in this draft who need to matter. Doesn't mean I don't like the others you've got down. But I like those 2 a lot. The DE is interesting to me. I think he is one of those guys who will benefit by being next to really good players. He had no help at Ole Miss.

Something people are missing here with this "It's just a XYZ round pick" is that the reason the Bengals had to let Bates go is also the reason they are probably struggling to pay Higgins,: The Bengals have had to pay a fortune to Free Agents due to not just missing star players... but whiffing on so many draft picks several years running that they have to go sign really high priced FAs to be able to have impact players.

Reader, Hendrickson, Hill, Bell, Brown Jr, The Body Guard, Cappa, Karras.


- Hell, their entire 2024 starting O line, save for a 4th round LG, is going to be FA signings. That is a position group of MONSTER NEED and the Bengals have missed horribly. That group cannot just get by like they do with LBs, TEs, & RBs and the Bengals have crapped the bed so bad at OL - to the tune of HUGE payouts to FAs - causing a ripple effect through the roster.


If something as simple as any 2 out of: Carman, Carter, Wren, Shelvin, Mike Jordan, Smith, Hill, & Adeniji were even avg to good draft picks, Jessie Bates would still be on the team and Higgins would have a long term deal. The money they are paying the guys who had to be signed to avoid the continued slaughter of JB9 is what is stopping them from signing high impact guys elsewhere. That doesn't mean I hate the O linemen that are on the team. Quite the opposite! They are NEEDED and doing valuable work. I just wish 2 of them could have been draft picks on rookie deals the last 3 seasons.


I don't think people realize that when the Bengals piss away 4th rounders that it kills them keeping star players. They are going to miss on plenty of draft picks. It happens.... But man, some of these drafts are DISGUSTINGLY awful.... And it hurts the Bengals to grab guys who won't be 100% going into the offseason.

Jenkins just isn't very exciting to me.
Hard for me to fall in love with a guy who only had 4.5 sacks in college over 35+ games though, while being under 300 lbs.
I know he has a great motor and is really good against the run, but that doesn't always translate to being a great DT.
I see maybe a BJ Hill type of guy in Jenkins. And I like Hill, but he's not an upper tier pass rushing DT.
Or maybe Jenkins is supposed to be the Reader replacement and Jackson is the Tupou backup replacement.
I just need to see these where the Bengals end up slotting these guys this preseason.

What is it about Newton that you like?
I'm worried he doesn't have enough speed and twitch to stick to receivers in the NFL. And he doesn't have height and length to compensate for lack of speed.
A pretty close athletic comparison I see is Darqueze Dennard.
Both 5'11". Both ran a 4.51. Dennard didn't test on the agility drills, but Newton's agility was just meh.
If it's ok to get Dennard-like production out of him, maybe that's ok then. I just know most were happy when Dennard left.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-29-2024, 04:08 PM)Synric Wrote: Would have liked to see Jenkins get more opportunities. 

That Michigan Defensive Tackle room was loaded Mason Graham is going to be a top 15 maybe top 10 pick, Kenneth Grant who is probabaly going to end up the second best NT in the class, and Rayshaun Benny another highly recruited DT that was in a rotation with Jenkins, Graham, and Grant.

That's what makes it kind of a gamble though from these big programs though, right?
We've seen it countless times from the likes of Ohio St, Alabama, Georgia, and now Michigan.

Not all these guys at great programs end up panning out even though we think they just need more opportunities.


I don't want people to think I don't like Jenkins at all. I like certain aspects of his game. I just wanted more of a pass rusher if taking a DT in Rd 2.
Maybe Michael Hall instead of Jenkins.
Run game is very important though and I hope Jenkins shows that he's more of a pass rushing threat than I am giving him credit for.

[tms]

(04-29-2024, 11:33 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - Even the pople who scout for a living have more misses than hits. I don't take offense that they, or anyone else, disagree with my opinion on the pick. It's fine!

Generally speaking, I think it's fair to assume a player can stay healthy.... unless they've had major injuries recently. All has had 2 major injuries in back to back college seasons.

- Erick All as a person seems to be a super high character guy. Erick All, IF HEALTHY, is a great prospect. I would have even been fine taking him with the 2nd 3rd round pick if he was healthy. IF HE WAS HEALTHY.

Only, he isn't healthy. He is currently unable to play full contact practice and most likely a pup candidate. The Bengals TE position and interior OL position could have used a player who can practice and provide depth and begin to develop NOW. There were players available who fit that description, which is why I don't like the selection.

Erick All ran a 4.8 40. That is what the reality is. Erick All today cannot hold up or block a NFL DE or LB. Eric All cannot successfully run NFL routes today in a practice, let alone a game.

That is reality. And he will most likely lose another season of development this year while other players on the Bengals and in the league continue to get better. He has no shot to come in and get some magical excellerated TE development. He will not be 100% - a REAL 100% - for a long time. 2025 is the best hope for that timeline - assuming everything goes perfect.The Bengals need 100% NOW. Not 2 years from now.

All has missed a TON of college playing/practice opportunities as well. I understand minor or freak injuries (Mims), but this player has had 2 major surgeries on completely unrelated things in back to back college seasons. He has barely played since 2021 - 3 games to start 2022, 7 in 2023.... And he wasn't just lighting people on fire then, either. He wasn't some college phenom at TE. Not even close.

Look at the history of college players who had major injuries/surguries the season leading up to the draft. The odds of doing well with a player hurt like that is so astronomically low. 4th round picks, IMO, should not be "hope" picks on a team as good as the Bengals.

In 2 years, I hope Erick All is a monster. He deserves to be cheered on to become his absolute best. I'm of the opinion that type of pick is for a team in a different situation or later rounds. To me, the 4th round pick would've been of much higher value if they took a player who is ready to actually compete and play by getting a full offseason of work in.

Until proven otherwise (which I hope I am) this was a total lighting on fire of a strong draft pick postion for a player they could have gotten a round or 2 later, when it makes more sense to gamble.

Great post. Totally fair to question this pick, at least at the spot where it was made. Seems like we forced it for some reason. Hope it doesn't come back to bite us. Hope he emerges as a fine pro. But first I hope he can stay healthy because he hasn't been on the field much lately, like you said.

[casear2727]

(04-29-2024, 11:33 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - Even the pople who scout for a living have more misses than hits. I don't take offense that they, or anyone else, disagree with my opinion on the pick. It's fine!

Generally speaking, I think it's fair to assume a player can stay healthy.... unless they've had major injuries recently. All has had 2 major injuries in back to back college seasons.

- Erick All as a person seems to be a super high character guy. Erick All, IF HEALTHY, is a great prospect. I would have even been fine taking him with the 2nd 3rd round pick if he was healthy. IF HE WAS HEALTHY.

Only, he isn't healthy. He is currently unable to play full contact practice and most likely a pup candidate. The Bengals TE position and interior OL position could have used a player who can practice and provide depth and begin to develop NOW. There were players available who fit that description, which is why I don't like the selection.

Erick All ran a 4.8 40. That is what the reality is. Erick All today cannot hold up or block a NFL DE or LB. Eric All cannot successfully run NFL routes today in a practice, let alone a game.

That is reality. And he will most likely lose another season of development this year while other players on the Bengals and in the league continue to get better. He has no shot to come in and get some magical excellerated TE development. He will not be 100% - a REAL 100% - for a long time. 2025 is the best hope for that timeline - assuming everything goes perfect.The Bengals need 100% NOW. Not 2 years from now.

All has missed a TON of college playing/practice opportunities as well. I understand minor or freak injuries (Mims), but this player has had 2 major surgeries on completely unrelated things in back to back college seasons. He has barely played since 2021 - 3 games to start 2022, 7 in 2023.... And he wasn't just lighting people on fire then, either. He wasn't some college phenom at TE. Not even close.

Look at the history of college players who had major injuries/surguries the season leading up to the draft. The odds of doing well with a player hurt like that is so astronomically low. 4th round picks, IMO, should not be "hope" picks on a team as good as the Bengals.

In 2 years, I hope Erick All is a monster. He deserves to be cheered on to become his absolute best. I'm of the opinion that type of pick is for a team in a different situation or later rounds. To me, the 4th round pick would've been of much higher value if they took a player who is ready to actually compete and play by getting a full offseason of work in.

Until proven otherwise (which I hope I am) this was a total lighting on fire of a strong draft pick postion for a player they could have gotten a round or 2 later, when it makes more sense to gamble.

There really is no debate about the health issues, the history is there and the cause for concern or the lack of optimism is warranted.  My take is simply that IF these 2 stay healthy, they are very talented and could provide a solid 2 TE tandem that could be very efficient for us.  All being the all around blocking/receiving TE and McClachlan the more slot heavy reception TE.

[*Synric*]

(04-29-2024, 11:33 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - Even the pople who scout for a living have more misses than hits. I don't take offense that they, or anyone else, disagree with my opinion on the pick. It's fine!

Generally speaking, I think it's fair to assume a player can stay healthy.... unless they've had major injuries recently. All has had 2 major injuries in back to back college seasons.

- Erick All as a person seems to be a super high character guy. Erick All, IF HEALTHY, is a great prospect. I would have even been fine taking him with the 2nd 3rd round pick if he was healthy. IF HE WAS HEALTHY.

Only, he isn't healthy. He is currently unable to play full contact practice and most likely a pup candidate. The Bengals TE position and interior OL position could have used a player who can practice and provide depth and begin to develop NOW. There were players available who fit that description, which is why I don't like the selection.

Erick All ran a 4.8 40. That is what the reality is. Erick All today cannot hold up or block a NFL DE or LB. Eric All cannot successfully run 

That is reality. And he will most likely lose another season of development this year while other players on the Bengals and in the league continue to get better. He has no shot to come in and get some magical excellerated TE development. He will not be 100% - a REAL 100% - for a long time. 2025 is the best hope for that timeline - assuming everything goes perfect.The Bengals need 100% NOW. Not 2 years from now.

All has missed a TON of college playing/practice opportunities as well. I understand minor or freak injuries (Mims), but this player has had 2 major surgeries on completely unrelated things in back to back college seasons. He has barely played since 2021 - 3 games to start 2022, 7 in 2023.... And he wasn't just lighting people on fire then, either. He wasn't some college phenom at TE. Not even close.

Look at the history of college players who had major injuries/surguries the season leading up to the draft. The odds of doing well with a player hurt like that is so astronomically low. 4th round picks, IMO, should not be "hope" picks on a team as good as the Bengals.

In 2 years, I hope Erick All is a monster. He deserves to be cheered on to become his absolute best. I'm of the opinion that type of pick is for a team in a different situation or later rounds. To me, the 4th round pick would've been of much higher value if they took a player who is ready to actually compete and play by getting a full offseason of work in.

Until proven otherwise (which I hope I am) this was a total lighting on fire of a strong draft pick postion for a player they could have gotten a round or 2 later, when it makes more sense to gamble.

The Irony LOL. 

[PDub80]

(04-29-2024, 05:58 PM)casear2727 Wrote: There really is no debate about the health issues, the history is there and the cause for concern or the lack of optimism is warranted.  My take is simply that IF these 2 stay healthy, they are very talented and could provide a solid 2 TE tandem that could be very efficient for us.  All being the all around blocking/receiving TE and McClachlan the more slot heavy reception TE.

I 100% share your vision, even if it sounds like I don't.