Well She was an Adult

[hollodero]

(10-16-2018, 11:42 AM)bfine32 Wrote: The hypocrisy lies with Hills being as Dill thinks he would have a similar reaction if Trump had an affair with a 22 year old intern.

It was just a week or so ago that Hills says women should be believed. Recently Lewinsky (the victim) has stated that the affair with Clinton was abuse of power. Hills quickly says "pay her no mind". This doesn't even broach the topic of her remarks directed toward the accusers of Bill

I get that one. I might not be 100% on par with your view on Hillary, but fair enough. Question is, why does it matter. She speaks her mind and no one else's really.

I personally never took issue with Trump having an affair or Bill having an affair. Powerful men are attractive to women, some men act out on it, and if a woman decides to give into the attraction without expecting favoritism, the reveal of secrets or a career boost etc. in return, that's betwen those two if both are mentally sane adults. Is my view, which is as little representative of an entire group as Hillary's.

#metoo is about different stuff (rape, groping, blackmail, acquiring sexual favors in return for a job etc.), or at least it should be. Now it's become a "left" movement, hence up for automatic, talked up scrutiny like everhing else "left", and that is just sad. No topic seems to escape that spiral.

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2018, 11:48 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Damn, one would think you're a little more in tune with the political landscape.

It's not the Right that continually sticks a microphone in front of her face.

Nah, I wouldn't stop, because then I'd miss your brilliant retorts. 

What's interesting to me is that the Democrats I know all wish she would fade into obscurity. We don't really want her out there in the political realm because she is more harm than good. We need to be focusing forward and she is in the past. She needs to stay in that rearview mirror. Unfortunately, the media likes to talk to her because they know it will get clicks and generate controversy.

[hollodero]

As an extension to what was said, I don't mind Trump's affair, I might mind that she was threatened (don't know if that's true), that silencing her might count as an illegal campaign contribution (don't know either), that dubious firms and a Russian oligarch paid money to Cohen, that Trump lied repeatedly about all of it (which used to be some kind of deal) and that he calls her "horseface".

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2018, 12:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What's interesting to me is that the Democrats I know all wish she would fade into obscurity. We don't really want her out there in the political realm because she is more harm than good. We need to be focusing forward and she is in the past. She needs to stay in that rearview mirror. Unfortunately, the media likes to talk to her because they know it will get clicks and generate controversy.

Agreed and this is why I said that part of me hopes the DNC goes all in again in 2020 for Hills. The future of the Left seems to be trending more and more away from center and Hills is as Center as a conservative can hope for in a Dem. 

I would be lying if I suggested I would not find entertainment in a Trump/Clinton rematch, but my hope would be that America would finally see how flawed these 2 are on perhaps someone like Rand Paul would finally admit he's a Libertarian and run a legitimate 3rd party campaign. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2018, 12:03 PM)hollodero Wrote: I get that one. I might not be 100% on par with your view on Hillary, but fair enough. Question is, why does it matter. She speaks her mind and no one else's really.

I personally never took issue with Trump having an affair or Bill having an affair. Powerful men are attractive to women, some men act out on it, and if a woman decides to give into the attraction without expecting favoritism, the reveal of secrets or a career boost etc. in return, that's betwen those two if both are mentally sane adults. Is my view, which is as little representative of an entire group as Hillary's.

#metoo is about different stuff (rape, groping, blackmail, acquiring sexual favors in return for a job etc.), or at least it should be. Now it's become a "left" movement, hence up for automatic, talked up scrutiny like everhing else "left", and that is just sad. No topic seems to escape that spiral.

Fair enough and we must remember metoo got its legs with the accusation of Weinstein (a liberal). It gets it's left bias IMO because folks want to classify the right as the party of "old white men" and what movement is more antagonistic of that than #metoo. Now if #metoo and a few of its high-profile advocates would come out a blast Hills for standing by her man then it might slide more toward neutral; but they will not do that because Hills is what they strive to achieve: a woman of power. 

[Benton]

(10-16-2018, 12:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What's interesting to me is that the Democrats I know all wish she would fade into obscurity. We don't really want her out there in the political realm because she is more harm than good. We need to be focusing forward and she is in the past. She needs to stay in that rearview mirror. Unfortunately, the media likes to talk to her because they know it will get clicks and generate controversy.

I think a lot of folks in the DNC mistake Hillary's ability to win for Bill's charisma. It's odd his popularity survived a sex scandal, but his wife's popularity couldn't.

(10-16-2018, 12:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Agreed and this is why I said that part of me hopes the DNC goes all in again in 2020 for Hills. The future of the Left seems to be trending more and more away from center

I dunno. There's been a lot of support for Rust Belt and farmer-backed Democrats. I think Hillary's floundering and the distance the GOP leadership has traveled from common voters is helping Democrats move away from a handful of issues that keep tripping them up. 

Quote: and Hills is as Center as a conservative can hope for in a Dem. 

That I do agree with. The best thing for rank and file Republicans would have been a Clinton presidency. They've gotten plenty of what they wanted under Trump, but it's going to cost a few of them their jobs. With Clinton, they could've just painted her the bad guy for the deficit and other issues.

Quote:I would be lying if I suggested I would not find entertainment in a Trump/Clinton rematch, but my hope would be that America would finally see how flawed these 2 are on perhaps someone like Rand Paul would finally admit he's a Libertarian and run a legitimate 3rd party campaign. 

Rand seems to be moving further and further center. I once had a lot of respect for the guy, now he's mostly just falling in line with giant deficits and shifting tax burdens to the middle class.

[hollodero]

(10-16-2018, 12:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Fair enough and we must remember metoo got its legs with the accusation of Weinstein (a liberal).

...or rather with Weinstein (a swine).
It also "took" Schneiderman and Franken, so it's not like liberals aren't aimed at.

(10-16-2018, 12:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It gets it's left bias IMO because folks want to classify the right as the party of "old white men" and what movement is more antagonistic of that than #metoo. Now if #metoo and a few of its high-profile advocates would come out a blast Hills for standing by her man then it might slide more toward neutral; but they will not do that because Hills is what they strive to achieve: a woman of power. 

I don't know if it's only this way around though. The mockery of #metoo is quite strong on conservative networks. I'd figure the movement tends to be more left because the left is the party more popular with women, more focused on women's issues and being led by more women. Also, one can blast Bill Clinton and rightfully so, but recently it was the GOP funding guys like Roy Moore or collectively saying nothing when the self-proclaimed party leader calls women derogatory names and slams Ford and other Kavanaough accusers. In a sense, the classification of the right as the party of old white men who don't really care much about those things doesn't seem entirely born out of nothing.

As for Hillary, I can imagine that the reason you gave plays its part. It might also be that the movement's leaders don't feel like commenting on everything. As I said, I believe the whole Lewinsky thing is not really within the core of the metoo movement in the first place.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-16-2018, 12:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What's interesting to me is that the Democrats I know all wish she would fade into obscurity. We don't really want her out there in the political realm because she is more harm than good. We need to be focusing forward and she is in the past. She needs to stay in that rearview mirror. Unfortunately, the media likes to talk to her because they know it will get clicks and generate controversy.

I thought you weren't a Democrat??

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2018, 07:23 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I thought you weren't a Democrat??

I've become a part of my local Democratic committee. I'm liberal, on the geo-political spectrum I am a social democrat, I have just always had a lot of problems with the party. Still do, quite honestly. But I had some people that worked hard to get me involved. Seriously, months of trying to talk me into it. So I folded a couple of months ago and am now officially a part of the machine to elect Democrats in this area.

I won't go into too many details, but a main reason for this was because of the way the local committee was reorganizing. I will work with the local committee because I like the way we are headed. But the state and national committees don't have any loyalty from me. Of course, I'm a realist and know that the only real way to make anything change is from within. Third-party and independent candidates with our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all system are wasted votes beyond a certain level.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2018, 06:24 PM)Benton Wrote: I think a lot of folks in the DNC mistake Hillary's ability to win for Bill's charisma. It's odd his popularity survived a sex scandal, but his wife's popularity couldn't.

Meh, what more evidence do you need to realize powerful white males can get away with anything?

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2018, 08:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, what more evidence do you need to realize powerful white males can get away with anything?

Harvey Wienstien, Al Franken, and others say what's up. 

[ballsofsteel]

Didn't Monica show up at the oval office one night when Clinton was working late with a pizza and not wearing underwear, asking Bill if he was "hungry"? Abuse of power? She initiated it. She might as well had on one of those DTF buttons (like the women in Cinci wear every time Big Ben is in town) on.

Abuse of power, saying how fine your daughter is and you would go out with her, creep.

[GMDino]

(10-16-2018, 11:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Harvey Wienstien, Al Franken, and others say what's up. 

Arrested and resigned.

Kavanaugh got promoted, Trump just lies about it.  They say hey.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2018, 11:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Harvey Wienstien, Al Franken, and others say what's up. 

Wait a minute...they aren't republicans!  Homina homina homina homina!

[Dill]

(10-16-2018, 12:03 PM)hollodero Wrote: bfine32 Wrote: The hypocrisy lies with Hills being as Dill thinks he would have a similar reaction if Trump had an affair with a 22 year old intern.
It was just a week or so ago that Hills says women should be believed. Recently Lewinsky (the victim) has stated that the affair with Clinton was abuse of power. Hills quickly says "pay her no mind". This doesn't even broach the topic of her remarks directed toward the accusers of Bill
........................................................................................................................................................................................................

I get that one. I might not be 100% on par with your view on Hillary, but fair enough. Question is, why does it matter. She speaks her mind and no one else's really.

I personally never took issue with Trump having an affair or Bill having an affair. Powerful men are attractive to women, some men act out on it, and if a woman decides to give into the attraction without expecting favoritism, the reveal of secrets or a career boost etc. in return, that's betwen those two if both are mentally sane adults. Is my view, which is as little representative of an entire group as Hillary's.

#metoo is about different stuff (rape, groping, blackmail, acquiring sexual favors in return for a job etc.), or at least it should be. Now it's become a "left" movement, hence up for automatic, talked up scrutiny like everhing else "left", and that is just sad. No topic seems to escape that spiral.

I wouldn't "get that one" too quickly.   What has Lewinsky actually said about her affair with Bill?

At least two things:

First, contradictorily: “Sure, my boss took advantage of me, but I will always remain firm on this point: it was a consensual relationship. Any ‘abuse’ came in the aftermath, when I was made a scapegoat in order to protect his powerful position.”

And second: "Now, at 44, I’m beginning (just beginning) to consider the implications of the power differentials that were so vast between a president and a White House intern. I’m beginning to entertain the notion that in such a circumstance the idea of consent might well be rendered moot.  ...But it’s also complicated. Very, very complicated. The dictionary definition of “consent”? “To give permission for something to happen.” And yet what did the “something” mean in this instance, given the power dynamics, his position, and my age? . . . This”(sigh) is as far as I’ve gotten in my re-evaluation;"  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/02/monica-lewinsky-in-the-age-of-metoo

Part of the struggle for Lewinsky is that (as Balls reminds us above) she made the first move, wanted the relationship. Now, twenty years later after #metoo, people are encouraging her to revise her understanding of the situation, to reframe herself as victim because of the power differential between her and the President. (Before, "abuse of power" meant that the abuser required sex in exchange for something--a job, promotion, raise, whatever). She has difficulty doing this because it may place responsibility for her choice on Clinton, denying her own agency. She would have to say she wasn't accountable for her own actions, and she resists that. So while she is clear she was abused AFTER the affair, as people called her a "bimbo" and ostracized her, she is not at all clear that the affair itself was abusive.  (She is a very good writer, by the way, and presents the dilemma very well, without deciding either way.)

So if Hillary says "women are to be believed" one could easily "believe" Lewinsky and conclude no abuse of power took place, at least as far as the affair itself.  So Hillary hypocrisy, supposed to represent some generic Dem hypocrisy, is just not very clear here.  One might legitimately call her a hypocrite if she answers questions about Juanita Broderick all wrong, but again, and as you point out, that's her view as individual, and wife. Not a hypocrisy that magically radiates to all Trump opponents.

If Trump boinked an intern who showed him her thong, it's not clear people whether people would get all worked up over "abuse of power" or think it small potatoes, even with the range of "normal" deviance, given Trump's other behavior.

[Dill]

(10-16-2018, 06:24 PM)Benton Wrote: I think a lot of folks in the DNC mistake Hillary's ability to win for Bill's charisma. It's odd his popularity survived a sex scandal, but his wife's popularity couldn't.

That I do agree with. The best thing for rank and file Republicans would have been a Clinton presidency. They've gotten plenty of what they wanted under Trump, but it's going to cost a few of them their jobs. With Clinton, they could've just painted her the bad guy for the deficit and other issues.

LOL yes, well said. That is odd. But the Clintons' "popularity" has always been subject to much right wing media attention. Now Bill's at least would also be subject to #metoo.

And yes, we'd be hearing A LOT about how bad deficits were if Hillary were president. It would be a subject of much "grassroots" rage.

[ballsofsteel]

The far right wing led by the Koch brothers paid Monica to entice Clinton into a blow job.
Not having a dress that looked like a gaggle of geese walked over it, laundered then stored for use as evidence down the road is proof of this.
Getting a blow job is not "having sex with that person".
This is why the song, "devil with the blue dress" was recorded, referring to Monica.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-17-2018, 07:13 AM)GMDino Wrote: Arrested and resigned.

So you agree with his point that not all "powerful white men" get away with everything. Cool. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-17-2018, 07:13 AM)GMDino Wrote: Arrested and resigned.

Kavanaugh got promoted, Trump just lies about it.  They say hey.

Yes Dino, thanks for the assist. I mention Franken and Weinstien to counter the argument of just another powerful white guy getting away with anything. Thanks for pointing out their punishments. 

But more on Trump please.  

[GMDino]

(10-18-2018, 03:41 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So you agree with his point that not all "powerful white men" get away with everything. Cool. 

Some are held accountable.  Some get promotions and refuse to step down.

(10-18-2018, 04:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes Dino, thanks for the assist. I mention Franken and Weinstien to counter the argument of just another powerful white guy getting away with anything. Thanks for pointing out their punishments. 

But more on Trump please.  

Oh!

So while you try to say that #metoo is "leftists" you ALSO want to say folks on the left were held accountable?

That's adorable!