(02-25-2016, 12:42 PM)Vlad Wrote: Why single out us? Slavery is an ugly scar on every nation that had slaves, even the African nations.
It's a no brainer recognizing how awful slavery was looking back, but during the 1700's the worldview was much different and you may not have looked at the same way as you do now from atop your perch of self righteous moral superiority.
I singled us out in that statement because two wrongs do not make a right. And the same people who insists that God herself created America to be the greatest country ever also think we can lessen the events of the past because we didn't do it alone. And also because this thread is currently talking about American slavery.
But yeah, respecting everyone's right to not be owned by someone else is definitely something that comes from my "self righteous moral superiority".
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(02-25-2016, 02:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is called an "analogy". It is a common tool in persuasive argument. It compares the similarities of two different things in order to make a point.
But since you hang out with people who believe that no other country on earth had slaves you have probably never heard of this term.
Your analogies are garbage. But keep going with the snark when you're losing.
To me it's not about looking for the good things, it's looking for the truth, and if "good things" happen to come out of the truth then so be it.
For you its perception.
The truth, the WHOLE THRUTH, and nothing but the truth. Ever heard that in your line of work Jimmy?
You can't imagine that there are people who aren't aware of how slaves were brought over and that other countries had slaves?....
The title seems misleading, but the content is real. Done by a black historian.
(02-25-2016, 02:21 PM)Vlad Wrote: You can't imagine that there are people who aren't aware of how slaves were brought over and that other countries had slaves?....
Yes, I guess there are iincredibly stupid people out there, but it is FAR from the majority.
I have never met a person in my life who did not know that other countries had slaves. If nothing else they have at least read part of the Bible.
Do you really know a person who thinks that no other country ever had slaves before the United States?
(02-25-2016, 02:21 PM)Vlad Wrote: Your analogies are garbage. But keep going with the snark when you're losing.
To me it's not about looking for the good things, it's looking for the truth, and if "good things" happen to come out of the truth then so be it.
For you its perception.
The truth, the WHOLE THRUTH, and nothing but the truth. Ever heard that in your line of work Jimmy?
You can't imagine that there are people who aren't aware of how slaves were brought over and that other countries had slaves?....
The title seems misleading, but the content is real. Done by a black historian.
Quote:You know the story we got when we were kids that your ancestors were out one sunday with his girlfriend and some white man jumps out of the bush and throws a net over him... Its not how it happened. Slavery was big business. Africans sold other africans to the Europeans.
Sounds like he's saying that for dramatic effect, unless its some sort of generational misinformation. I was never taught that it was the Europeans actually capturing the Africans. Never taught that in HS, never heard that in any African Studies classes in College.
Regardless. The fact that Africans were sold to Europeans does not denigrate the atrocity of slavery itself. No matter how you look at it, the US benefited greatly from this atrocity in its formative years. That is a fact that we cannot hide from.
(02-25-2016, 11:23 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: To be fair, many of the original slaves freedom was already taken.
Many were conquered tribes who were sold by the victor, rather than put to death.
This is a tough stance to take, because the obvious, immediate retort: "Oh so you think slavery was OK?"
This is the part of the post that will be ignored: Slavery in the US was an atrocity that many innocent persons had to endure. To treat a human less than anything other than a human is unacceptable.
But to suggest that we as Americans didn't do anything to make the Slave's life better than it was/would have been is ignorant of the process worldwide.
Within 2 generations of gaining our freedom, we were fighting for the freedom of American slaves.
Many slaves that were sold in slavery were freed or allowed to work for a wage and raised a family.
many were given education and opportunities they would not have gotten elsewhere.
Many freed slaves were given passage back to Africa and the country of Liberia was formed. It is the only African country developed without violence.
This and other things will be dismissed, well because of Slavery.
(02-25-2016, 03:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is a tough stance to take, because the obvious, immediate retort: "Oh so you think slavery was OK?"
This is the part of the post that will be ignored: Slavery in the US was an atrocity that many innocent persons had to endure. To treat a human less than anything other than a human is unacceptable.
But to suggest that we as Americans didn't do anything to make the Slave's life better than it was/would have been is ignorant of the process worldwide.
Within 2 generations of gaining our freedom, we were fighting for the freedom of American slaves.
Many slaves that were sold in slavery were freed or allowed to work for a wage and raised a family.
many were given education and opportunities they would not have gotten elsewhere.
Many freed slaves were given passage back to Africa and the country of Liberia was formed. It is the only African country developed without violence.
This and other things will be dismissed, well because of Slavery.
Waits to be labeled a racist.
Racist.
But seriously you are correct that eventually we thought better of it and after the slaves were freed they started leading better lives.
However....
We had to fight a WAR to get half the country to agree. And even after that for another 100 years blacks were treated as lesser humans than whites in many of those same places in the south.
So while ending slavery makes the story better we cannot look at slaves having better lives after being freed without looking at how they were treated even after that.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(02-25-2016, 03:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well, to be honest we were also fighting to maintain slavery.
(02-25-2016, 03:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No racist.
Just an apologist.
bfine32 Wrote:This is the part of the post that will be ignored: Slavery in the US was an atrocity that many innocent persons had to endure. To treat a human less than anything other than a human is unacceptable.
It's almost like I know what they are going to do before they do it. Thanks for proving the theory Fred.
(02-25-2016, 03:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is a tough stance to take, because the obvious, immediate retort: "Oh so you think slavery was OK?"
This is the part of the post that will be ignored: Slavery in the US was an atrocity that many innocent persons had to endure. To treat a human less than anything other than a human is unacceptable.
But to suggest that we as Americans didn't do anything to make the Slave's life better than it was/would have been is ignorant of the process worldwide.
Within 2 generations of gaining our freedom, we were fighting for the freedom of American slaves.
Many slaves that were sold in slavery were freed or allowed to work for a wage and raised a family.
many were given education and opportunities they would not have gotten elsewhere.
Many freed slaves were given passage back to Africa and the country of Liberia was formed. It is the only African country developed without violence.
This and other things will be dismissed, well because of Slavery.
Waits to be labeled a racist.
Yeah, but facts are facts.
Most people here know them, but some skirt it to serve their arguments and that's not necessarily a deplorable act.
It is what it is.
(02-25-2016, 03:41 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Yeah, but facts are facts.
Most people here know them, but some skirt it to serve their arguments and that's not necessarily a deplorable act.
It is what it is.
I don't need to skirt any of these facts to prove my point.
It is never okay to own slaves. Even if you feed them well an eventually let them go it is still a terrible thing.
Would you ever agree to be a slave if they said they would feed you well and maybe let you go someday? Or would you still consider being a slave "deplorable"?
(02-25-2016, 03:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's almost like I know what they are going to do before they do it. Thanks for proving the theory Fred.
Except you never said anyone would call you an apologist. But keep patting yourself on the back for clearly being wrong.
I didn't ignore any part of your post. But it is clear what your objective is when you start making lists to prove how much white people "helped" the slaves. You are being an apologist.
(02-25-2016, 03:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is a tough stance to take, because the obvious, immediate retort: "Oh so you think slavery was OK?"
This is the part of the post that will be ignored: Slavery in the US was an atrocity that many innocent persons had to endure. To treat a human less than anything other than a human is unacceptable.
But to suggest that we as Americans didn't do anything to make the Slave's life better than it was/would have been is ignorant of the process worldwide.
Within 2 generations of gaining our freedom, we were fighting for the freedom of American slaves.
Many slaves that were sold in slavery were freed or allowed to work for a wage and raised a family.
many were given education and opportunities they would not have gotten elsewhere.
Many freed slaves were given passage back to Africa and the country of Liberia was formed. It is the only African country developed without violence.
This and other things will be dismissed, well because of Slavery.
(02-25-2016, 04:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except you never said anyone would call you an apologist. But keep patting yourself on the back for clearly being wrong.
I didn't ignore any part of your post. But it is clear what your objective is when you start making lists to prove how much white people "helped" the slaves. You are being an apologist.
Oh, you just changed the label but still followed form.
(02-25-2016, 04:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't need to skirt any of these facts to prove my point.
It is never okay to own slaves. Even if you feed them well an eventually let them go it is still a terrible thing.
Would you ever agree to be a slave if they said they would feed you well and maybe let you go someday? Or would you still consider being a slave "deplorable"?
I never said it was ok to own slaves.
Would I be a slave ?
I guess that would depend on what other alternatives I had in life.
There are far too many variables for me to firmly answer the question.
Should you give me a complete scenario, I'd be happy to answer.
What I can tell you is that I would certainly do it to save my family.
(02-25-2016, 10:12 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I never said it was ok to own slaves.
Would I be a slave ?
I guess that would depend on what other alternatives I had in life.
There are far too many variables for me to firmly answer the question.
Should you give me a complete scenario, I'd be happy to answer.
What I can tell you is that I would certainly do it to save my family.
Actually it was not uncommon in ancient times for people to sell themselves or even family members into slavery. It was often their only means of survival.
(02-25-2016, 11:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Actually it was not uncommon in ancient times for people to sell themselves or even family members into slavery. It was often their only means of survival.
Absolutely.
On a lesser scale, we could discuss the feudal system and serfdom.
Serfs were afforded quite a bit more than any slave, but there were a very small amount of slaves that were afforded a small fraction of what a serf received.
(02-25-2016, 12:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What is your favorite thing about slavery? Would it be fair to say your favorite thing about slavery is all the good to come out of it?
Well, the fact that the slaves were actually freed. Then they also got to stay in this country, having access to things that they wouldn't have had access to if they weren't slaves here.
Think of all the black people you know. You wouldn't have gotten to know them if not for slavery.
Think of the accomplishments done by black people in this country. Those things wouldn't have come about if we didn't have slavery.
Of course you could just pretend that the slaves in Africa would have just been set free. I mean it isn't like slavery is still continuing to this day in African countries or anything like that.
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