2020 Election

[CJD]

(08-07-2020, 08:15 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Gaffes tend to expose people, but I’m not comparing him to anyone. It’s a nice out for people to say but Trump, but nobody is required to vote for either. Maybe we could move toward more than two viable parties if people actually started voting for other parties.

Biden has been on the wrong side of so many major pieces of legislation he has been a part of that it'd be difficult to list them all. The Crime bill, Iraq, segregation, social security, the Hyde Amendment, NAFTA and probably many more.

However, all those issues pale in comparison to having a wannabe fascist in the presidential office. For all of Biden's faults, he actually believes and understands the purpose of the American government. Trump only wants power and will use and abuse the office as he sees fit to reach his end goals. He has weaponized the police and border security to suppress American citizens' freedoms. He has demonized entire nationalities, religions and races on multiple occasions. He has pushed back on every attempt to end or curtail discrimination of nearly any kind in this country (except for white and Christian people, who he seems to think are under attack in this country). He's done his absolute best to convince his followers that truth isn't truth and everyone, including the media, is lying to them except him.

These are just a very small list of all his fascist tendencies and beliefs and allowing him 4 more years in office would be an absolute disaster. 


Believe me when I tell you I am not excited to vote for Biden. The guy is what I wish Republicans actually were. In the vast majority of other developed countries, I don't even think Biden would be part of the "left party." He's as centrist or center right as you can get.

But he isn't a fascist.

This election is not between Trump and Biden. It's an election between Trump and Not Trump. And that's, unfortunately, just a pill we're going to have to swallow and hope the Republicans get their shit together for 2024 and put forward a legitimate candidate that isn't corrupt in nearly every single possible way.

[BmorePat87]

(08-07-2020, 03:50 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, broaden your statement to include veracity of reported numbers (I find it interesting that China was not on your list at all) and then explain why, despite being 3rd in population we are 8th in deaths, despite obvious questions regarding the validity of the reported figures from many nations.

Just to reiterate, that 8th is per capita. The US is first is total deaths. So I could say, "despite being 3rd in population, we are 1st in deaths". 

China was not on my list because I don't trust China. Which other countries are you questioning? 

[BmorePat87]

(08-07-2020, 08:15 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Gaffes tend to expose people, but I’m not comparing him to anyone. It’s a nice out for people to say but Trump, but nobody is required to vote for either. Maybe we could move toward more than two viable parties if people actually started voting for other parties.

Gross incompetence tends to expose people too. That's kind of my point. Voters care far more about Trump not taking this pandemic seriously than they do about Biden's gaffes, as they should because one of those things has killed people while the other hasn't. The Trump campaign should spend less time saying that Biden "lost the Black vote" (which is itself an ironic response to your opponent implying a monolith) and more time trying to show us why a guy who golfed 11 times last month is actually trying to handle this historic disaster. 

With regards to voting third party, that's unlikely to happen with the electoral college. 

[GMDino]

(08-07-2020, 10:20 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Great he apologized, but we still get to see the mind and what it thinks. Again, if you want to use Trump as an out then that’s up to you. You’ve made 10,000 threads about the worst person in the world, and the best you have is your guy is better than him.

Isn't that the idea?  To put up someone BETTER than the other guy?

And if Trump wasn't a complete failure there would be no need for "10,000" posts.  I mean if someone wants to make "10,000" posts about President Biden (if that happens) they can feel free to and we'll discuss what the posts are about.

(as an aside:  I really don't get why certain people complain about the number of posts as long as they are on differing subjects.)

After four plus years of being told by Trump supporters that we can't go by what he says but rather what he does (unless he does something bad/stupid then we can't go by that either) or what is "in his heart" you'll have to forgive me for finding the phrase "we still see the mind and what it thinks" about Biden when he is willing to clarify and apologize.

You can bet I'm comparing Trump and Biden...they are running against each other (sorry 3rd party people) and if Biden is "better" then that needs to said also.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-07-2020, 08:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: Bmore gave the numbers, now you want more?

But you ARE right about one thing SSF:  We don't know the real numbers from other countries.  You just didn't take it far enough.  I find it interesting that your didn't include  the US in that statement.  Florida fudged numbers.  The Trump administration the CDC from getting or giving us virus data.  From an administration that lies about almost everything every day can't be trusted whether it is China or the US.

(08-07-2020, 10:02 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: People question our numbers.  Georgia has been caught three times fudging the numbers.

You are both correct and I'd include the US in that category as well.  I'd also add that there appears to be a fair number of people who tested positive for Covid that never even took the test.  I had a good friend, who is very liberal, tell me that she went for testing but had to leave before she and her husband were tested due to the line being so long.  A few days later she received results in the mail saying she and her husband tested positive.  This whole thing seems very janky.

(08-07-2020, 11:06 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Just to reiterate, that 8th is per capita. The US is first is total deaths. So I could say, "despite being 3rd in population, we are 1st in deaths". 

China was not on my list because I don't trust China. Which other countries are you questioning? 

India.  More due to lack of testing ability than deception.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-07-2020, 11:35 AM)GMDino Wrote: Isn't that the idea?  To put up someone BETTER than the other guy?

And if Trump wasn't a complete failure there would be no need for "10,000" posts.  I mean if someone wants to make "10,000" posts about President Biden (if that happens) they can feel free to and we'll discuss what the posts are about.

(as an aside:  I really don't get why certain people complain about the number of posts as long as they are on differing subjects.)

After four plus years of being told by Trump supporters that we can't go by what he says but rather what he does (unless he does something bad/stupid then we can't go by that either) or what is "in his heart" you'll have to forgive me for finding the phrase "we still see the mind and what it thinks" about Biden when he is willing to clarify and apologize.

You can bet I'm comparing Trump and Biden...they are running against each other (sorry 3rd party people) and if Biden is "better" then that needs to said also.

No. It’s about putting up someone who is actually good. The I’m not complaining about your number of posts. I’m saying the best you came up with is my guy apologized for racist comments and the worst human alive didn’t.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-07-2020, 11:10 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Gross incompetence tends to expose people too. That's kind of my point. Voters care far more about Trump not taking this pandemic seriously than they do about Biden's gaffes, as they should because one of those things has killed people while the other hasn't. The Trump campaign should spend less time saying that Biden "lost the Black vote" (which is itself an ironic response to your opponent implying a monolith) and more time trying to show us why a guy who golfed 11 times last month is actually trying to handle this historic disaster. 

With regards to voting third party, that's unlikely to happen with the electoral college. 

No but voting third party can wake some people up. If a whole bunch of Republicans go say libertarian then that severely hampers the Republican’s chances to win, and maybe we will see better. Maybe then people won’t see third party votes as a wage. Keep hitting the R or D and you’re going to keep getting the same thing.

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 10:17 AM)michaelsean Wrote: No. If just 10% voted for a single third party they would have to start paying attention. A lot of people thought we had the two worst candidates ever last election, and yet they all voted for one of them.  I hate most AA sayings, but they have one good one. Nothing changes if nothing changes.

I agree with that sentence. But the way to bring change is not voting third party in a system that is rigged against them. It is changing the system.

Never mind all the power structures, money and media, that will avoid effective campaigning for a third party. But even if 10% are reached from any third party, that party spoils it for the side they belong to (there's always left and right still). This is such an effective counterpoint to make because it is absolutely true. If a socialist party is formed now with Bernie running für POTUS, the election is already over and Trump has already won. Socialist voters would not want that. And whoever "pays attention" will only learn not to make that mistake again. Like it happened with Nader.

First thing to change that would be snap elections for president. If no candidate reaches 50%, there's a second vote. Also, the EC needs to go. And of course the majority voting system and the "one seat for one district"-principle in house elections. This is the only way to change things. But this is also the way hardly anyone in America even considers thinkable.

And THAT is why you're stuck, that you do not do these things. Your third party vote doesn't change anything and it never did.

[BengalHawk62]

(08-07-2020, 12:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You are both correct and I'd include the US in that category as well.  I'd also add that there appears to be a fair number of people who tested positive for Covid that never even took the test.  I had a good friend, who is very liberal, tell me that she went for testing but had to leave before she and her husband were tested due to the line being so long.  A few days later she received results in the mail saying she and her husband tested positive.  This whole thing seems very janky.


India.  More due to lack of testing ability than deception.

I’ve been hearing multiple stories like this around here too. People setting up appt’s to get tested, only to leave because of one reason or another, not getting tested and then a few days later getting emails with positive results. It’s because of these stories that I’ve stopped taking all these new positive case #s seriously. I don’t care what # they throw out there for New Postive cases, it makes me question what exactly is going on.

[GMDino]

(08-07-2020, 12:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: No. It’s about putting up someone who is actually good.  The I’m not complaining about your number of posts. I’m saying the best you came up with is my guy apologized for racist comments and the worst human alive didn’t.

The "best" I came up with was in relation to what you posted as a negative about Biden.  In other words...the truth.

Pick a point...compare Biden and Trump and Biden is better.

He is more honest, he actually has been a religious person, he understands how government works, he is willing to change his mind with new information or changing times.

Oh, but he's a Democrat so I guess in some minds he will not be "actually good".

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-07-2020, 12:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You are both correct and I'd include the US in that category as well.  I'd also add that there appears to be a fair number of people who tested positive for Covid that never even took the test.  I had a good friend, who is very liberal, tell me that she went for testing but had to leave before she and her husband were tested due to the line being so long.  A few days later she received results in the mail saying she and her husband tested positive.  This whole thing seems very janky.


India.  More due to lack of testing ability than deception.

Getting accurate numbers can be a problem, even for me. Knowing who to trust is increasingly becoming a problem with the Trump administration cutting the CDC out of the loop and assigning the NIH to take over.

But, what you just described seems to be a site specific problem. Most likely mislabeled vials.  And the patient's actually swabbed didn't get any results.  From my perspective, there seems to have been an effort not to test, rather than test too much. Our tests are being conducted by LabCorp.  We get the results directly from LabCorp via our electronic medical record keeping system. I haven't noticed anything suspicious with the test results.

But, another issue is sensitivity and specificity data for the tests.  I can't find it because the manufacturer's don't have to submit validation data with the FDA emergency use authorizations. I can't tell which tests is more accurate.  I can only order the test available through the EMR and that test has been determined by the hospital at levels much higher than me along with which lab they contract with to conduct the test.

[BmorePat87]

(08-07-2020, 12:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: No but voting third party can wake some people up. If a whole bunch of Republicans go say libertarian then that severely hampers the Republican’s chances to win, and maybe we will see better. Maybe then people won’t see third party votes as a wage. Keep hitting the R or D and you’re going to keep getting the same thing.

But in this scenario a 3rd party vote still perpetuates a 2 party system. The last place the two party system will be broken is in the Electoral College. It will take organization at the local level first. 

[BmorePat87]

(08-07-2020, 12:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You are both correct and I'd include the US in that category as well.  I'd also add that there appears to be a fair number of people who tested positive for Covid that never even took the test.  I had a good friend, who is very liberal, tell me that she went for testing but had to leave before she and her husband were tested due to the line being so long.  A few days later she received results in the mail saying she and her husband tested positive.  This whole thing seems very janky.


India.  More due to lack of testing ability than deception.

India also had the benefit of being able to beat people with sticks in the streets if they go out and shut down their country far more than we did. Obviously our system of government makes that far harder to do, but the lack of any federal guidance or urging to do so absolutely hurt. Actively opposing even the most basic steps states took hurt too. 

[*michaelsean*]

(08-07-2020, 12:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: The "best" I came up with was in relation to what you posted as a negative about Biden.  In other words...the truth.

Pick a point...compare Biden and Trump and Biden is better.

He is more honest, he actually has been a religious person, he understands how government works, he is willing to change his mind with new information or changing times.

Oh, but he's a Democrat so I guess in some minds he will not be "actually good".

Great. He apologized for racist comments. That doesn’t change the fact that that’s what he thought. Doesn’t change the fact that the first thing he went to in his hypothetical with a black reporter was junkie. You will become what you despise in Trump voters with this guy.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-07-2020, 12:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: I agree with that sentence. But the way to bring change is not voting third party in a system that is rigged against them. It is changing the system.

Never mind all the power structures, money and media, that will avoid effective campaigning for a third party. But even if 10% are reached from any third party, that party spoils it for the side they belong to (there's always left and right still). This is such an effective counterpoint to make because it is absolutely true. If a socialist party is formed now with Bernie running für POTUS, the election is already over and Trump has already won. Socialist voters would not want that. And whoever "pays attention" will only learn not to make that mistake again. Like it happened with Nader.

First thing to change that would be snap elections for president. If no candidate reaches 50%, there's a second vote. Also, the EC needs to go. And of course the majority voting system and the "one seat for one district"-principle in house elections. This is the only way to change things. But this is also the way hardly anyone in America even considers thinkable.

And THAT is why you're stuck, that you do not do these things. Your third party vote doesn't change anything and it never did.

Yes somebody has to be willing to let it spoil perhaps. What better time to have it spoiled than now?

I have no problem getting rid of the EC, I just hate people whining about it after the fact. Campaigns are run based on the EC and not the popular vote.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 01:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Great. He apologized for racist comments. That doesn’t change the fact that that’s what he thought. Doesn’t change the fact that the first thing he went to in his hypothetical with a black reporter was junkie. You will become what you despise in Trump voters with this guy.

I hear ya, and I'm not voting for Biden but if he actually apologizes and doesn't double-down and say "A lot of people and studies say that most black people are crackheads, some say that, some say" then I guess he's a step in the right direction.

The biggest Biden over Trump nod I'll give is that Biden is at least a man who has had, at some point in his life, shown that he can operate somewhat within the rules of a reality applicable to most Americans.  That and I rather hope Biden would just get 4 years and then we could actually reboot the political landscape and start over...I know, I'm crazy.

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 01:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes somebody has to be willing to let it spoil perhaps. What better time to have it spoiled than now?

I guess many don't share that sentiment at this very moment of time. If you really feel totally indifferent about Trump or not Trump (I guess Biden's his name), then maybe I can see the point. You leave the only choice in that election to the others. You end up with Trump or Biden and forfeited your say in it.

And what for? I read the same arguments about third parties when it was Hillary vs Trump, and in the end third party votes did not ignite even the slightest debate about anything. The whole political complex is not designed to (also you don't really have a mainstream option around anyway). The system is too rigged against third parties. While the actual choice might be a close one.

(Also, didn't you say once back in the day that you promised yourself to vote for Biden if he were an option, or something like that? I might be mistaken, in which case, scratch that.)

(08-07-2020, 01:06 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I have no problem getting rid of the EC, I just hate people whining about it after the fact. Campaigns are run based on the EC and not the popular vote.

I don't see it as whining if I say counting the popular vote is fairer and makes every person's vote equal. Aside from that, no argument, Trump won fair and square and all other implications are futile.
Only thing is, if you complain about only having two choices all the time you're actually complaining about the EC too. At least I cannot separate the two issues.

[hollodero]

(08-07-2020, 01:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya, and I'm not voting for Biden but if he actually apologizes and doesn't double-down and say "A lot of people and studies say that most black people are crackheads, some say that, some say" then I guess he's a step in the right direction.

The biggest Biden over Trump nod I'll give is that Biden is at least a man who has had, at some point in his life, shown that he can operate somewhat within the rules of a reality applicable to most Americans.  That and I rather hope Biden would just get 4 years and then we could actually reboot the political landscape and start over...I know, I'm crazy.

One might add that Biden is not a pathological narcissist, not a pathological liar, cares about things beyond himself, has compassion, is distinctively less idiotic, believes in democracy and has no authoritarian tendencies, is not inherently racist, not quite that embarrassingly uneducated, knows about the value of diplomacy and good foreign relations, won't kneecap an ally in his fight against a common foe to produce fraoudulent charges against an opponent, is less spiteful, less ignorant, less vindictive, less corrupt, less indecent, tweets less BS, is less of a global embarrassment...
I feel those are all fair and fairly neutral points for Biden. They deserve mention.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2020, 01:45 PM)hollodero Wrote: One might add that Biden is not a pathological narcissist, not a pathological liar, cares about things beyond himself, has compassion, is distinctively less idiotic, believes in democracy and has no authoritarian tendencies, is not inherently racist, not quite that embarrassingly uneducated, knows about the value of diplomacy and good foreign relations, won't kneecap an ally in his fight against a common foe to produce fraoudulent charges against an opponent, is less spiteful, less ignorant, less vindictive, less corrupt, less indecent, tweets less BS, is less of a global embarrassment...
I feel those are all fair and fairly neutral points for Biden. They deserve mention.

I'm only comfortable giving Biden credit when he's being compared to Trump, but I'm biased.  The 2020 election is, to me, a situation where Trump is going to say "I'm doing the best job ever and I'm the best president" and I want to see the American voting populace tell him that he is far from those things by voting him out of office.  It's all about voters showing that they have a grasp of reality, not that they are smart enough to agree with me (because voters aren't joining me in voting for Jorgensen and it's also possible that I'm a complete idiot).  This is the only actual job Trump has ever had in his life and it shows.

The fact that Biden could be brain-dead or dead-dead before a second term comes into play and therefore require a political re-boot in 2024 is all the more reason to tacitly "support" the guy.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(08-07-2020, 08:45 AM)hollodero Wrote: This is escaping the situation by dreaming.
Your system and the power structures it created allow for two opposing parties and that's the American way.

Actually, going OT for a second the system makes sense if there are MORE than 2 parties.

If there are 2 parties, it should be popular vote, period.

The EC made sense when you had the Dems, Reps, Dem-Reps, Federalists, Whigs, etc., all running against each other.

It has "devolved," per se, into 2 parties, due to the funding (moreso in the modern day) required and just how certain people came to power, historically.

Here we have a similar system, in that whomever wins the most seats, wins the leadership of the country.

But we've had 4+ parties since the 1800s, so it makes sense :)