2020 Election

[samhain]

(08-01-2020, 01:50 AM)Dill Wrote: Yes to all this. 
I would only add that the internal war began before Trump was elected, with the Never Trump movement. It will increase as Trump increasingly mishandles the "Chinese virus" and civil unrest.

They've already turned on Paul Ryan.  He's a RINO now.  Even Fox News faces his tirades when they get a little out of line.  Not a single GOP politician is safe from him or his followers if he decides they've slighted him.  If politics have been degraded to "team sports", then his team has a lot more pull among GOP voters than the party of old.  Guys that are stalwarts like McConnell and co may not see him as ideal, but they aren't the average Republican voter.  

Also, what can't be ignored is that Trumpism worked from an electoral standpoint.  That Pandora's box is opened wide.  You can win elections with the politics of white grievance and nativism and not much else.  There's no chance that the GOP doesn't go back to suckle at that teat again, particularly if they fall on hard times after this election.  

[CKwi88]

(07-31-2020, 09:58 PM)samhain Wrote: I totally disagree about Trumpism dying with Trump, anyway.  His supporters, even the garden variety are hardcore.  They are all about the personality cult and all that comes with it.  Any moderate or classic Republican that expects this authoritarian populism to die with DJT's elimination from office isn't paying attention.  

If the Party itself tries to disown Trumpism, Trumpism will most definitely turn on the Party.  The man himself will run his mouth on twitter about anything and everything they do to distance themselves, and the faithful will devour it.  He can turn his QAnon morons against anyone he wants, and if the GOP thinks they are safe, then they haven't been watching.  If Biden wins, they won't see it as Trump being too Trumpy. They'll see it as him being restrained by party elders and not Trumpy enough.  

A Biden win will devastate the GOP, and not because of anything Dems do.  It will lead to internal war within the party between populist clowns like Gym Jordan, Frat Gaetz, and Rona Gohmert and old heads like Graham, Mitch and the others.  

As for the heir to Trumpism, I see it being Tom Cotton.  He's a less moronic, younger, and more respectable authoritarian populist.  Trump's kids are not a possiblity, IMO because at their cores they don't bring a lot to the table other than a name.  They aren't as stupid or insane as dad, although they might be just as sadistic and entitled.  Eric is, well, Eric.  Don Jr is the living embodiment of an arrogant-for-no reason heir.  Ivanka is probably the best of the bunch, but she's still way out of her depth at this level.  I think she has a desire to be liked, and is not suited to enduring a political campaign as it's center.  Dad doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks, and that's his greatest strength.  I don't think the kids share that trait.  Pence is bland and has no shot unless the Dems end up in a Trump-style disaster with whatever candidate they'd run against him.  He's basically a walking stereotype of what people who who regard the Christian radical right with disdain regard them with disdain for.  

I certainly dont believe Trumpism dies with Trump's presidency. He has a cult like following that certainly lives up to the whole "I can shoot a dude on 5th Ave and not lose a vote" mantra.

However, should Trump lose emphatically in November, the GOP is going to be at a major crossroads. They will either have to double down on Trumpism, further cementing Trumpism as the GOP platform, or disown him and alienate a very vocal minority of their electorate, and what will be a very vocal scorned ex president.

It will be interesting to see. I'm of the opinion that there are more people that simply won't vote for a D and want to see the party move to normalcy rather than people who would bend over and spread 'em for Trump given the chance

[Dill]

(08-01-2020, 09:19 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: I certainly dont believe Trumpism dies with Trump's presidency. He has a cult like following that certainly lives up to the whole "I can shoot a dude on 5th Ave and not lose a vote" mantra.

However, should Trump lose emphatically in November, the GOP is going to be at a major crossroads. They will either have to double down on Trumpism, further cementing Trumpism as the GOP platform, or disown him and alienate a very vocal minority of their electorate, and what will be a very vocal scorned ex president.

It will be interesting to see. I'm of the opinion that there are more people that simply won't vote for a D and want to see the party move to normalcy rather than people who would bend over and spread 'em for Trump given the chance

I think that half or more will double down on Trumpism. They have a much diminished capacity for recognizing incompetence in politicians and taking responsibility for their own errors as voters.

A large minority will try to "save" the party, but that won't happen (if it does at all) until the next primary in 2023. Some will want Trump to run again, but the next successful candidate will have to be someone who wasn't shamed by Trump ("lyin' Ted) nor was a public sycophant, like Lindsay Graham, nor a public spectacle like Jordan--someone ready to disavow Trump (he went to far!) but not wholly (had the right ideas about immigration and standing up to China and Hillary).

I won't be surprised if a third party forms, either of Trumpers or of Repubs who are traditional conservatives and tired of the nonsense, now that they have their judges.

[Benton]

(08-01-2020, 11:57 AM)Dill Wrote: I think that half or more will double down on Trumpism. They have a much diminished capacity for recognizing incompetence in politicians and taking responsibility for their own errors as voters.

A large minority will try to "save" the party, but that won't happen (if it does at all) until the next primary in 2023. Some will want Trump to run again, but the next successful candidate will have to be someone who wasn't shamed by Trump ("lyin' Ted) nor was a public sycophant, like Lindsay Graham, nor a public spectacle like Jordan--someone ready to disavow Trump (he went to far!) but not wholly (had the right ideas about immigration and standing up to China and Hillary).

I won't be surprised if a third party forms, either of Trumpers or of Repubs who are traditional conservatives and tired of the nonsense, now that they have their judges.

That's the rough spot for the party going forward.

While there's dozens of candidates considering running every four years, there's only a few who have the connections, funding and popularity to realistically launch a bid. Trump's opposition and attitude towards ... well... most people will likely knock some of those out. And, as you mention, a lot of folks will be wary of backing someone like Graham for fear of repeating the last few years. 

On the bright side, it may be a reformation of the party. Hopefully, party leadership has realized the importance of the under-represented  portion of their base (middle class and lower class workers), and will move towards legislation that supports their needs more and away from laws that benefit top earners. 

[Dill]

(08-01-2020, 12:17 PM)Benton Wrote: That's the rough spot for the party going forward.

While there's dozens of candidates considering running every four years, there's only a few who have the connections, funding and popularity to realistically launch a bid. Trump's opposition and attitude towards ... well... most people will likely knock some of those out. And, as you mention, a lot of folks will be wary of backing someone like Graham for fear of repeating the last few years.

You raise another factor here I had not considered. Even if Trump is not himself running, his endorsement will be a powerful pro AND con for any Republican running. His presence will continue to split the party. Those like Graham will be easily (and rightly) represented as without backbone--the guy who stood with his pal McCain until Trump didn't like it. He'll have no appeal outside SC--and it's not clear his own state will re-elect him as Senator now.

(08-01-2020, 12:17 PM)Benton Wrote: On the bright side, it may be a reformation of the party. Hopefully, party leadership has realized the importance of the under-represented  portion of their base (middle class and lower class workers), and will move towards legislation that supports their needs more and away from laws that benefit top earners. 

LOL Hope springs eternal.  There will be a reformation of the party, but it may take 8 years, not be effective until the 2028 election--especially if Dem governance proves minimally effective over 2021-24, and returns Americans to a sense of normalcy and international respect.

[samhain]

(08-01-2020, 09:19 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: I certainly dont believe Trumpism dies with Trump's presidency. He has a cult like following that certainly lives up to the whole "I can shoot a dude on 5th Ave and not lose a vote" mantra.

However, should Trump lose emphatically in November, the GOP is going to be at a major crossroads. They will either have to double down on Trumpism, further cementing Trumpism as the GOP platform, or disown him and alienate a very vocal minority of their electorate, and what will be a very vocal scorned ex president.

It will be interesting to see. I'm of the opinion that there are more people that simply won't vote for a D and want to see the party move to normalcy rather than people who would bend over and spread 'em for Trump given the chance

I may be biased due to my geographical location in the US (the South), but I don't see MAGA Republicans as a minority at all.  Almost everyone I know and deal with on a daily basis identifies as a Republican, and with the exception of maybe 3 orf them, they're all Trumpers to the core.  A good chunk of them wear Trump shirts/hats like a fan of a sports franchise would wear colors.  

The Republican Party in my eyes and in the eyes of many members of the party itself is the part of Trump, ie right wing populist authoritarianism.  They will not accept any result in this election other than a Trump win, regardless of what people like Mitch tell them.  There's no pretending that most of the party didn't bend over for Trump, because most of the party will still be bent over long after he's gone, should he lose.  Even the ones who claim they didn't like him or didn't vote for him have spent the last 3.5 years defending and justifying everything he's done/said.  I won't forget, and neither will most people.  It's going to hang around their necks for a good decade.  All of them.  

I look at Trump like a big coke bender for the party.  They felt invincible.  He was the wrecking ball that got everything they ever wanted through in terms of tax cuts and deregulation.  Now the bender is quite possibly ending.  The dealer's been busted, and the actions of the last 4 years look a lot less awesome than they did when they were happening.  

Al lot can happen between now and Nov 3rd, perhaps moreso given the pandemic and volatile political climate.  The Dems have a boring candidate that says dumb stuff form time to time, and the right thinks that will be enough to make people want 4 more years of this shit show.  I doubt it, but I think they'd better hope so.  The party is in for some shit with or without Trump winning in November, but it will be a messy fight for control of the party if he loses.

[HarleyDog]

(08-01-2020, 07:55 PM)samhain Wrote: I may be biased due to my geographical location in the US (the South), but I don't see MAGA Republicans as a minority at all.  Almost everyone I know and deal with on a daily basis identifies as a Republican, and with the exception of maybe 3 orf them, they're all Trumpers to the core.  A good chunk of them wear Trump shirts/hats like a fan of a sports franchise would wear colors.  

The Republican Party in my eyes and in the eyes of many members of the party itself is the part of Trump, ie right wing populist authoritarianism.  They will not accept any result in this election other than a Trump win, regardless of what people like Mitch tell them.  There's no pretending that most of the party didn't bend over for Trump, because most of the party will still be bent over long after he's gone, should he lose.  Even the ones who claim they didn't like him or didn't vote for him have spent the last 3.5 years defending and justifying everything he's done/said.  I won't forget, and neither will most people.  It's going to hang around their necks for a good decade.  All of them.  

I look at Trump like a big coke bender for the party.  They felt invincible.  He was the wrecking ball that got everything they ever wanted through in terms of tax cuts and deregulation.  Now the bender is quite possibly ending.  The dealer's been busted, and the actions of the last 4 years look a lot less awesome than they did when they were happening.  

Al lot can happen between now and Nov 3rd, perhaps moreso given the pandemic and volatile political climate.  The Dems have a boring candidate that says dumb stuff form time to time, and the right thinks that will be enough to make people want 4 more years of this shit show.  I doubt it, but I think they'd better hope so.  The party is in for some shit with or without Trump winning in November, but it will be a messy fight for control of the party if he loses.

Not a minority here either in middle western Ohio and definitely not Indiana.

[BengalHawk62]

(08-01-2020, 07:55 PM)samhain Wrote: I may be biased due to my geographical location in the US (the South), but I don't see MAGA Republicans as a minority at all.  Almost everyone I know and deal with on a daily basis identifies as a Republican, and with the exception of maybe 3 orf them, they're all Trumpers to the core.  A good chunk of them wear Trump shirts/hats like a fan of a sports franchise would wear colors.  

The Republican Party in my eyes and in the eyes of many members of the party itself is the part of Trump, ie right wing populist authoritarianism.  They will not accept any result in this election other than a Trump win, regardless of what people like Mitch tell them.  There's no pretending that most of the party didn't bend over for Trump, because most of the party will still be bent over long after he's gone, should he lose.  Even the ones who claim they didn't like him or didn't vote for him have spent the last 3.5 years defending and justifying everything he's done/said.  I won't forget, and neither will most people.  It's going to hang around their necks for a good decade.  All of them.  

I look at Trump like a big coke bender for the party.  They felt invincible.  He was the wrecking ball that got everything they ever wanted through in terms of tax cuts and deregulation.  Now the bender is quite possibly ending.  The dealer's been busted, and the actions of the last 4 years look a lot less awesome than they did when they were happening.  

Al lot can happen between now and Nov 3rd, perhaps moreso given the pandemic and volatile political climate.  The Dems have a boring candidate that says dumb stuff form time to time, and the right thinks that will be enough to make people want 4 more years of this shit show.  I doubt it, but I think they'd better hope so.  The party is in for some shit with or without Trump winning in November, but it will be a messy fight for control of the party if he loses.

(08-01-2020, 08:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Not a minority here either in middle western Ohio and definitely not Indiana.

Ya definitely not a minority in Central Iowa either. It’s scary to even speak ill of Trump around here.

[samhain]

I almost feel like a Biden win will be a gift to the GOP compared with 4 more years of Trump. If they can manage to congeal and not have a intra-party civil war, they can do what they are best at, ie attack the Dem in charge, drum up "grassroots" ire against Biden and co, and have a frothing movement by midterms with enough sway to win the House back.

A Trump win will bring 4 more years of degradation to the party and it's identity. More old heads will retire and clear out, making way for MAGA insurgents to make up the majority of the platform. A second Trump term will be the most bat shit crazy thing imaginable in terms of executive power. Unrest will continue and compound, corona will probably hang around for the first year and a half, and Trump will Trump.

If it's at all in dispute who runs the party at this point, then that dispute will end should he win another term. He'll gut that party and everything it ever had in terms of dignity.

[Dill]

(08-02-2020, 12:07 AM)samhain Wrote: I almost feel like a Biden win will be a gift to the GOP compared with 4 more years of Trump.  If they can manage to congeal and not have a intra-party civil war, they can do what they are best at, ie attack the Dem in charge, drum up "grassroots" ire against Biden and co, and have a frothing movement by midterms with enough sway to win the House back.  

A Trump win will bring 4 more years of degradation to the party and it's identity.  More old heads will retire and clear out, making way for MAGA insurgents to make up the majority of the platform.  A second Trump term will be the most bat shit crazy thing imaginable in terms of executive power.  Unrest will continue and compound, corona will probably hang around for the first year and a half, and Trump will Trump.  

If it's at all in dispute who runs the party at this point, then that dispute will end should he win another term.  He'll gut that party and everything it ever had in terms of dignity.

Chilling to contemplate, when you remember that all the adults have left the room.

I have been reading Bolton's book, The Room Where It Happened, which details again and again how Kelly and Pompeo and Bolton stopped Trump from doing crazy things, like pulling all our troops out of Korea.

It's the little things that are scary. His intel briefings were mostly Trump telling his intel people what's what, not listening. He would forget from one day to the next what he had promised to do. Pence, Bolton and Kelly spent a half day working up a tweet with Trump to cancel the Singapore Summit with Kim. He promised to tweet it out that evening. The next morning no tweet; he had changed his mind. Tirades and berating of staff every day. His base simply doesn't pay attention to foreign policy, other than to applaud shrinking US power abroad, ceding influence to China.

Dysfunction, disorganization--leaks were the way to get Trump's attention, or to play one faction against another.

I'm no supporter of Bolton. He hastened the tanking of the Iran Deal, used Trump's ineptness in such cases to further HIS foreign policy. But that is also part of the problem. Trump is manipulable as well as ignorant. The fight for his attention is a free-for-all.

So yes, four more years with no worries about re-election--I suspect Trump capable of war with Iran and withdrawing from NATO, and worse at home.

But I don't think that will happen.

The last Trump crisis will be over the "rigged" election. Then good riddance.

[BmorePat87]

This mother ***** says "there's been a lot of talk about my vetting process" and then posts a video of him and his corvette...

[treee]

(08-05-2020, 06:16 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This mother ***** says "there's been a lot of talk about my vetting process" and then posts a video of him and his corvette...

I like how he just casually mentions the ambition to turn the US into a world leader and innovator in electric vehicles

[BmorePat87]

The Trump campaign is trying to figure out if the go to attack is "radical leftist" or "alone and hiding", so they made an ad that accuses Biden of being alone in hiding in his basement.

Except they took photos of him outside and with crowds of people and photoshopped Biden into empty rooms...?

This is how the Trumpers lie. Here's the image of Biden they are using - I'd like to see Trump be able to sit on the floor and get up. Biden can. pic.twitter.com/QVT5Ufjeze

— REDACTED Human Scum/hand washer/mask wearer (@mrshellwinger) August 5, 2020

Also, it looks like someone photoshopped out a microphone he was holding at an event to make it look like he was.....touching his forehead in an empty room?https://t.co/CgMoUz9Gp9 pic.twitter.com/wJDTHpQyWJ

— andrew kaczynski? (@KFILE) August 5, 2020

[*Nately120*]

I expect political smears stuff to be deceptive, but simply photo editing an opponent into a unflattering scenario is amusingly dishonest.  If the Biden campaign doesn't fire back with "photo evidence" of Trump having sex with a Muslim man on Reagan's grave while burning the flag and not standing for the anthem I'll call it a missed opportunity.

It is funny seeing Biden standing alone in what looks to be an abandoned insane asylum from a Nintendo 64 game, though 

[*michaelsean*]

Anyone here a junkie?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(08-01-2020, 07:55 PM)samhain Wrote: I may be biased due to my geographical location in the US (the South), but I don't see MAGA Republicans as a minority at all.  Almost everyone I know and deal with on a daily basis identifies as a Republican, and with the exception of maybe 3 orf them, they're all Trumpers to the core.  A good chunk of them wear Trump shirts/hats like a fan of a sports franchise would wear colors.  

(08-01-2020, 08:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Not a minority here either in middle western Ohio and definitely not Indiana.

(08-01-2020, 10:15 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Ya definitely not a minority in Central Iowa either. It’s scary to even speak ill of Trump around here.

Hell, I was at a local, "Ontario-famous," roadside burger place 2 weekends ago and there was a (Canadian!) guy with a burgundy tank top that simply said, "Cottage," in the middle, wearing a bloody, "Vote Trump 2020," black hat (he was also wearing either women's loafers or some truly metrosexual crap on his feet). AND THIS IS 3 HOURS AWAY FROM THE CLOSEST BORDER CROSSING.

Then there's my sister-in-law's b/f, who is the biggest POS racist Trump lover, probably in Canada (he's seriously close to it) so believe me, they are everywhere, including not even in the country he's from.

[Benton]

(08-06-2020, 08:26 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I expect political smears stuff to be deceptive, but simply photo editing an opponent into a unflattering scenario is amusingly dishonest.  If the Biden campaign doesn't fire back with "photo evidence" of Trump having sex with a Muslim man on Reagan's grave while burning the flag and not standing for the anthem I'll call it a missed opportunity.

It is funny seeing Biden standing alone in what looks to be an abandoned insane asylum from a Nintendo 64 game, though 

It could also be copyright infringement depending on who owns the original photo.

[BmorePat87]

"Take away your guns, take away your Second Amendment. No religion, no anything. Hurt the Bible. Hurt God. He’s against God. He’s against guns. He’s against energy."

Trump’s comments today in Cleveland regarding Joe Biden’s plan to “hurt the Bible and God”.

[*jason*]

(08-06-2020, 05:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: "Take away your guns, take away your Second Amendment. No religion, no anything. Hurt the Bible. Hurt God. He’s against God. He’s against guns. He’s against energy."

Trump’s comments today in Cleveland regarding Joe Biden’s plan to “hurt the Bible and God”.

He's gonna walk his dog in your neighborhood, and not pick up the poop. You have all this beautiful grass, and he's going to hurt it... Many people are saying that.

[*Nately120*]

(08-06-2020, 05:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: "Take away your guns, take away your Second Amendment. No religion, no anything. Hurt the Bible. Hurt God. He’s against God. He’s against guns. He’s against energy."

Trump’s comments today in Cleveland regarding Joe Biden’s plan to “hurt the Bible and God”.

Interesting how Biden is both a feeble old moron and capable of hurting God himself.  That's pretty impressive.  

Missed chance for Trump to also say Biden is against the troops and straight people.