(03-16-2021, 12:38 AM)Housh Wrote: Whoever needs to hear this....



BOTH PARTIES HAVE TO WANT THE DEAL


Just because we have needs doesn’t mean we’re entitled to sign good players

This is only an excuse & gives the Bengals a free pass for being an 30+ inept front office.

(03-16-2021, 08:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: Not to nitpick, but he wasn't an All-Pro. No one refers to the PFWA "All-Pro" team when talking about guys who are All-Pro. Hendrickson wasn't 1st or 2nd team of the AP All-Pro team, the one recognized by basically everyone. 

Fair enough. I read he was All-Pro ( I don't even remember where I saw it now) I did not look past that.

(03-16-2021, 09:10 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Fair enough. I read he was All-Pro ( I don't even remember where I saw it now) I did not look past that.

...I am guessing Hobson said it. 

(03-16-2021, 09:12 AM)Au165 Wrote: ...I am guessing Hobson said it. 

No, He is listed as 1st team All Pro in Wiki. That's where I saw it, and the hyper link states.

Quote:The 2020 All-Pro teams were named by the Associated Press (AP),[1] Pro Football Writers of America (PFWA), and Sporting News (SN) for performance in the 2020 NFL season. Any player selected to the first-team of any of the teams can be described as an "All-Pro." The AP team, with first-team and second-team selections, was chosen by a national panel of fifty NFL writers and broadcasters. The Sporting News All-NFL team was voted on by NFL players and executives. The PFWA team is selected by its more than 300 national members who are accredited media members covering the NFL.

For the 2020 vote, the AP removed the offensive "flex" position that had been added to the ballot in 2016, and instead added a third wide receiver to the ballot.[2]

(03-16-2021, 12:30 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Spent a good chunk of the cap and we are still in need of 3 O-linemen and another edge rusher.

2 corners, a LB, a TE, 2 Wideouts, a DT...…

This mess isn't getting fixed no time soon. 

This is me clutching at straws. We needed an extra dl regardless of Lawson/hendrickson. We know that hendrickson can finish in a good defense. With Carl it is still hypothetical.

(03-16-2021, 09:16 AM)Sled21 Wrote: No, He is listed as 1st team All Pro in Wiki. That's where I saw it, and the hyper link states.

...There is no 1st team for PFWA, just a single lineup. Who decides what "counts", does PFF's all-pro team count? If not, why not? I know the NFL itself on it's website only shows the AP. I know you didn't write the wiki, just saying I wouldn't read too much into it.

(03-16-2021, 09:06 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: This is only an excuse & gives the Bengals a free pass for being an 30+ inept front office.

No, what he said is the truth...for example the Chargers doing what the did with their OL....Honestly, If you were one of those players, money offered relatively the same, where would you go?  Southern California?  A 7 win team with the ROY?  If the Bengals over paid for even one of those guys then they could not afford the others (with their philosophy).  Players and agents, in general, do not want to come here and deal with this franchise.  It is a fact, proven over and over again, year in and year out.  Reader last year got the big payday and overpaid but because of his age he will/should be able to get another nice contract and go SB hunting if his play stays at or near top level.

Just a question because it is all doom and gloom in here....there is one player at least that can change things....IF this were to play out....LT Trent Williams, overpay him NOW. Move Jonah to LG and get Sewell at 5 to play RT. Would any of you be happy? All hope is not lost....big money players going off the board and i believe a lot that just simply do not want to play here.

(03-16-2021, 09:44 AM)spazz70 Wrote: Just a question because it is all doom and gloom in here....there is one player at least that can change things....IF this were to play out....LT Trent Williams, overpay him NOW.  Move Jonah to LG and get Sewell at 5 to play RT.  Would any of you be happy?  All hope is not lost....big money players going off the board and i believe a lot that just simply do not want to play here.

They aren't going to pay 23-24 million per year to Williams. Even beyond that, the same issue we saw with Lawson would come up again and that is upfront money, i.e. signing bonus. If you look at how we structured Hendrickson's deal it shows a team who may be cash strapped (not cap that is different) and looked to push paying large sums of money off. Signing bonuses get paid out in one lump sum, whereas salaries get paid out weekly. By doing Hendrickson's deal the way they did they can essentially wait until they can generate more revenue in the season to pay out the cash to him versus paying Lawson the larger signing bonus right now.

People need to understand something, there is cap poor in the NFL and cash poor. If you are cap poor you can essentially buy it with cash via signing bonuses and restructuring. If you are a team who is cash poor you are simply screwed and at a competitive disadvantage. Few people talk about the cash issues because the valuations of teams are so high but teams like ours don't have the massive liquid cash reserves to pay some of these massive signing bonuses other teams pay. It makes sense coming out of a pandemic year with lower revenue than expected that we are trying to take approaches to conserve cash. When people talk about the Bates extension they just focus on his cap numbers but there will most likely be a very large cash expenditure there that they must account for as well.

I'd look for more moves with structures similar to Hendrickson which use larger salaries in year one to act as pseudo guaranteed money since you aren't cutting anyone in their first year. 

(03-16-2021, 09:56 AM)Au165 Wrote: They aren't going to pay 23-24 million per year to Williams. Even beyond that, the same issue we saw with Lawson would come up again and that is upfront money, i.e. signing bonus. If you look at how we structured Hendrickson's deal it shows a team who may be cash strapped (not cap that is different) and looked to push paying large sums of money off. Signing bonuses get paid out in one lump sum, whereas salaries get paid out weekly. By doing Hendrickson's deal the way they did they can essentially wait until they can generate more revenue in the season to pay out the cash to him versus paying Lawson the larger signing bonus right now.

People need to understand something, there is cap poor in the NFL and cash poor. If you are cap poor you can essentially buy it with cash via signing bonuses and restructuring. If you are a team who is cash poor you are simply screwed and at a competitive disadvantage. Few people talk about the cash issues because the valuations of teams are so high but teams like ours don't have the massive liquid cash reserves to pay some of these massive signing bonuses other teams pay. It makes sense coming out of a pandemic year with lower revenue than expected that we are trying to take approaches to conserve cash. When people talk about the Bates extension they just focus on his cap numbers but there will most likely be a very large cash expenditure there that they must account for as well.

I'd look for more moves with structures similar to Hendrickson which use larger salaries in year one to act as pseudo guaranteed money since you aren't cutting anyone in their first year. 

I understand that Trent Williams wants that type of money but he is 32 years old and probably why he is the only top 10 player unsigned, because he is not going to get that at his age.  

The Bengals FO needs do what other teams do.  You and I understand this...pay up front (signing bonus), spread it out.  They know this, they just do not implement it.  The Bengals do have this money, guaranteed, they just want to keep it in the bank and earn interest.

(03-16-2021, 10:05 AM)spazz70 Wrote: I understand that Trent Williams wants that type of money but he is 32 years old and probably why he is the only top 10 player unsigned, because he is not going to get that at his age.  

The Bengals FO needs do what other teams do.  You and I understand this...pay up front (signing bonus), spread it out.  They know this, they just do not implement it.  The Bengals do have this money, guaranteed, they just want to keep it in the bank and earn interest.

No, you don't "spread out" signing bonuses. Signing bonuses are paid...on signing. The cap hit spreads but that is not the same thing as spreading out cash. Simply put, no the Bengals don't have a ton of liquid cash sitting in the bank somewhere especially after the bonuses paid out last year and coming out of a pandemic year. No, they aren't poor relative to you and me, however, they are most likely hurting for liquid cash and I am telling you the Hendrickson deal was not a coincidence that was out of necessity, and it's why Lawson wasn't retained. 

(03-16-2021, 08:56 AM)Au165 Wrote: Not really. The NFL itself recognizes the AP as the actual "All-Pro" selections, hence why the NFL website lists AP All Pro's as the All Pro teams. It's better than a random dude's website saying a guy is "All-Pro" but it isn't what people are talking about when they use the term.

How many years has Lawson made that?

2021 Cap Hits:

$12.5M - Trey Hendrickson

$6.6M - Corey Linsley

$5.6M - Shaq Barrett

$4.5M - Joe Thuney

$4.0M - Kevin Zeitler

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) March 16, 2021

This should make everyone feel better.

(03-16-2021, 09:40 AM)spazz70 Wrote: No, what he said is the truth...for example the Chargers doing what the did with their OL....Honestly, If you were one of those players, money offered relatively the same, where would you go?  Southern California?  A 7 win team with the ROY?  If the Bengals over paid for even one of those guys then they could not afford the others (with their philosophy).  Players and agents, in general, do not want to come here and deal with this franchise.  It is a fact, proven over and over again, year in and year out.  Reader last year got the big payday and overpaid but because of his age he will/should be able to get another nice contract and go SB hunting if his play stays at or near top level.

I think your right in many aspects, players will likely choose locations like LA, Miami, NY and cities like that if the money and opportunity are similar. Also more likely to choose a team like KC because of the teams performance. 

BUT if we low-ball them then that's gonna make that choice alot easier. Whole lot of rumors that is what we did this off-season.

This isn't the NBA, we can't just hope that if we keep losing that we will draft the guy who turns it around for us. We saw what that gets us, Burrow on IR. We needed to overpay for a quality OLineman if that's what it took but we supposedly low balled a couple guys so we could say we tried.

An off-season of Thuney and another solid mid tier OG along with drafting Sewell would have set this offense up for years with Burrow. But instead we made a lateral move at best at DE and will probably take a WR at 5 just to rub salt in the wound   

(03-16-2021, 09:40 AM)spazz70 Wrote: No, what he said is the truth...for example the Chargers doing what the did with their OL....Honestly, If you were one of those players, money offered relatively the same, where would you go?

Me personally?  Cincinnati, no question.

California has the income highest tax rate in the entire country.  Their income tax rate on these multi-million dollar salaries is 13.30%.  Ohio's is 4.80%.

For example, a player making 10 million dollars a year will pay 1.303 million dollars in state income tax living in California.  A player in Ohio will only pay 476k.

And none of these accounts for housing costs, or costs of living either.  2 million dollars in Cincinnati will put you in a mansion in Indian Hill.  2 million dollars in Los Angeles will get you a 3BR, 1.5 bath, 1,500 sq ft house. $50 a plate in Cincinnati will get you into Jeff Ruby's. $50 a plate will get you into a rethemed Applebees in LA.

There's a lot reason tons of people are leaving California right now, and not all of it is Covid restrictions, homeless people shitting on your porch, or blue-haired pansexuals protesting the falvor of the day.  A lot of it is money related.
 

(03-16-2021, 10:23 AM)bfine32 Wrote: How many years has Lawson made that?

Did I say he did? I am pointing out we don't have to reach to justify the guy. No one refers to All-Pro as the PFWA selections. The NFL itself refers to the AP as "All-Pro".

(03-16-2021, 10:24 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote:

2021 Cap Hits:

$12.5M - Trey Hendrickson

$6.6M - Corey Linsley

$5.6M - Shaq Barrett

$4.5M - Joe Thuney

$4.0M - Kevin Zeitler

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) March 16, 2021

This should make everyone feel better.

This is what I am talking about in terms of them lacking the liquid cash and relying on a heavier year one salary to offset the lack of signing bonus. 

(03-16-2021, 10:25 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Me personally?  Cincinnati, no question.

California has the income highest tax rate in the entire country.  Their income tax rate on these multi-million dollar salaries is 13.30%.  Ohio's is 4.80%.

For example, a player making 10 million dollars a year will pay 1.303 million dollars in state income tax living in California.  A player in Ohio will only pay 476k.

And none of these accounts for housing costs, or costs of living either.  2 million dollars in Cincinnati will put you in a mansion in Indian Hill.  2 million dollars in Los Angeles will get you a 3BR, 1.5 bath, 1,500 sq ft house.  $50 a plate in Cincinnati will get you into Jeff Ruby's.  $50 a plate will get you into a rethemed Applebees in LA.

There's a lot reason tons of people are leaving California right now, and not all of it is Covid restrictions, homeless people shitting on your porch, or blue-haired pansexuals protesting the falvor of the day.  A lot of it is money related.
 

This post is spot on. Two of my life long friends have moved from California in the last 5 years because of their taxes and laws. And of course its happening with businesses like Tesla and plenty more. Cali doesnt have a people friendly gov there and hasnt for some time. You get rewarded for failure and punished for success there more than anywhere else. 

(03-16-2021, 10:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: No, you don't "spread out" signing bonuses. Signing bonuses are paid...on signing. The cap hit spreads but that is not the same thing as spreading out cash. Simply put, no the Bengals don't have a ton of liquid cash sitting in the bank somewhere especially after the bonuses paid out last year and coming out of a pandemic year. No, they aren't poor relative to you and me, however, they are most likely hurting for liquid cash and I am telling you the Hendrickson deal was not a coincidence that was out of necessity, and it's why Lawson wasn't retained. 

I think I mis typed what i meant...that was pay up front vs spreading it out (cap space)....  I think you are mistaken if you believe that the Bengals do not have the cash to pay a signing bonus up front and spread out the cap hit for future years in this instance.  I believe and agree that I would not guarantee Lawson's contract just on the simple fact that he HAS NEVER BEN HEALTHY, even going back to college.  Missed a year and half in college with ACL and hip injury and the same thing continued in the pros.  Odds are he misses time this year.