(05-01-2021, 09:37 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yeah, that would be nice.  The procedures available today, were still on the horizon at the time of my injury diagnosis.  I looked into having a discectomy, about 3 years ago.  Turns out that my health care provider won't cover it.  The only thing they will cover is the old fashioned spinal fusion, and that's if I'm completely unable to walk unassisted.  Now, if I had the cash to pay out of pocket, I'd certainly consider doing so.  However, my family Doc and I looked into the long term success rates of microdiscectomy, and they aren't as great as some might lead you to believe.  If you go and look at the data presented by clinics that specialize in these procedures, they present amazing numbers and percentages of athletes put back into action.  What they don't bother to show is how these people end up 10-15 years down the road, which is what my Doctor tuned me into.

10-15 years down the road does not account for right now which is the topic at hand. The bottom line is that this procedure with the technology being used in state of the art care has become routine for athletes. So while you continue to call Carmen a medical "red flag" I still believe you are overstating the situation. It was a good selection and not a reach.

(05-02-2021, 03:16 PM)OSUfan Wrote: 10-15 years down the road does not account for right now which is the topic at hand. The bottom line is that this procedure with the technology being used in state of the art care has become routine for athletes. So while you continue to call Carmen a medical "red flag" I still believe you are overstating the situation. It was a good selection and not a reach.

Agreed. And half the guys going on about Carman having a “red flag” probably wanted Jenkins at 38. Despite him having multiple medical concerns.

The Raiders $%#@$% us when they reached for Leatherwood @ 17 or 18 whatever it was in round 1..
You wanna talk reach..
Geez..

(05-02-2021, 03:25 PM)Spider Wrote: The Raiders $%#@$% us when they reached for Leatherwood @ 17 or 18 whatever it was in round 1..
You wanna talk reach..
Geez..

Leatherwood even has the same issues as Jackson Carman speed off the edge. Really the only difference in the two as prospects is Alex Leatherwood has the 34+ inch arms and Carman has 33.25.

(05-02-2021, 09:26 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Except that's not what it reads.  It clearly denotes the back issue as chronic, meaning that it happens over and over.  Now, are you also going to attempt to gloss over his technique issues by trying to explain them in a pretty and pleasant way, as well?

I haven't seen anywhere else say it was a chronic situation. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Any other sources?

(05-02-2021, 03:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I haven't seen anywhere else say it was a chronic situation. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Any other sources?

If you google Jackson Carman Medicals or Herniated disc this thread is one of the top searches. I would say we are blowing ut way out of proportion lol.

(05-02-2021, 03:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I haven't seen anywhere else say it was a chronic situation. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Any other sources?

Back injuries are almost always a chronic situation if they involve the disc, the procedure he had is to cut off part of the disc that was protruding and hitting the sciatic nerve which is what causes the pain.  He probably doesn't have any pain currently and can workout like normal but it is very easy for this problem to reoccur especially if it is not fully healed.  I would bet money that if they rush him back this will become an issue this season, there is no way he will be fully healed by the time the football season starts.  I call BS that he is cleared for football activity.

(05-02-2021, 03:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I haven't seen anywhere else say it was a chronic situation. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Any other sources?

Maybe it was chronic (recurring) for a few years and that was why he finally got surgery to take care of it.

Or maybe it was a pain issue that he treated with "the chronic".  

(05-02-2021, 03:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I haven't seen anywhere else say it was a chronic situation. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Any other sources?

I don't think anyone has said it will or is chronic, I think it is just a general concern that herniated disc can be a problem that arises again for people mixed with the general concern with the Bengals history of injured players.

I personally like Carman and think he will be a good player but I do understand the concern that people have. My only concern would be if they move him back out to tackle. Having watched all the Clemson games for the past few years, he can get happy feet and struggle with good speed rushers. Inside at guard though, he'll be solid.

(05-02-2021, 03:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I haven't seen anywhere else say it was a chronic situation. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Any other sources?

Here's the report that I pulled the quote from.

https://sports.yahoo.com/2021-nfl-draft-prospects-clemson-ot-og-jackson-carman-010530855.html

Quote:Games watched: LSU (2019), Boston College (2020), Wake Forest (2020), Ohio State (2020)


The skinny: A 5-star Rivals recruit (No. 16 nationally), Carman enrolled early his freshman year. He was the backup left tackle, seeing action in 13 games as a freshman (including both playoff games), for the national champion Tigers in 2018. In 2019, Carman started all 15 games and was named third-team all-ACC. He then started 12 games in 2020 for the playoff-bound Tigers, earning second-team all-ACC honors, before declaring early for the draft. Although he did not participate in Clemson’s pro day, Carman plans to hold an on-campus workout on April 15.

Upside: Good size for tackle or guard. Weighed in at pro day at a svelte 317 pounds, measuring nearly 6-foot-5 with a condor-like wingspan (87 inches) despite shorter arms. Extremely broad chest. Still young with plenty of growth potential — will be a 21-year-old rookie.

Plays with great strength and power. Carries a physical edge on the field. Has the requisite pop to excel in a gap-blocking system. Almost impossible to bull rush him. Sets his anchor and rarely gets uprooted.
Very agile for a man his size. Impressive flexibility for a blocker who played closer to the 330-340 range in college. Pad level is fairly impressive for a big guy. Terrific combination of upper- and lower-body strength, plus natural athletic traits — those are hard to find.

Showed steady improvements as a pass blocker — kept Trevor Lawrence relatively clean for three years. Clemson’s interior line struggled in 2020, requiring Carman to compensate for inside pressure. Good peripheral vision to spot late trouble and adjust. Good punch skills and hand use in pass protection — appears to have taken to coaching on this.

Nasty demeanor. Intimidator who doesn’t back down from a rock fight. Played well against a battery of a schedule for three years. Faced top competition and seldom was exposed or overwhelmed. Had some solid reps vs. Chase Young in 2019 playoff semifinal game.

Downside: Still an unpolished gem — has all the talent but never lived up to expectations. Has first-round traits but some third- and fourth-round tape at times.

Clunky footwork remains a big work in progress. Suffers from some balance issues, lunges too often, has late feet when delivering a blow and can get exposed by quality NFL defensive linemen if not fixed.

Some scouts see him as a better fit inside. Despite the great wingspan, he has short arms (32 1/2 inches) and small hands (9 5/8 inches) — somewhat unusual dimensions. Will give up that broad chest to defenders at times.

Pass-rush effectiveness could be shaky early on in the NFL. Inside rush moves have given him trouble. Also susceptible to strong edge speed and burst. Benefitted from a lot of three-step-drop passes. Will fall off blocks and fail to sustain properly. Not bad on the move in college but might be a tick slow to get to the edge in the pros.

Played too heavy at times in college. Had trouble controlling weight — arrived as a 375-pound freshman. Pro-day weight wasn’t what he played at. Seemed to fade down the stretch the past two seasons (with the exception of the first Ohio State game). Also suffered from accountability concerns early in college and will require some character vetting. Scouts say his focus and attention to detail could use improvement.

Back injury that kept him out of earlier pro day is a chronic issue that could earn some red flags.

Best-suited destination: Carman’s best fit appears to be in a man-blocking system that features the run game and doesn’t leave its tackles isolated in five-man pass protections. The guess is that he’ll be a swing tackle/sixth OL who is cross-trained inside and used on heavy alignments before competing for a starting job in 2022.

(05-02-2021, 04:06 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: Back injuries are almost always a chronic situation if they involve the disc, the procedure he had is to cut off part of the disc that was protruding and hitting the sciatic nerve which is what causes the pain.  He probably doesn't have any pain currently and can workout like normal but it is very easy for this problem to reoccur especially if it is not fully healed.  I would bet money that if they rush him back this will become an issue this season, there is no way he will be fully healed by the time the football season starts.  I call BS that he is cleared for football activity.

Yes sir they are..
Im sure a plenty of folk on this message board Harbors Back pain wether is always there or its intermittent..
Im 43.. I have the lower back of an 80 year old.. MRI's prove it but yet doctors refuse to operate due to the High risk of Error which could cause Dangerous results for me..
But IM saying hes young..first and foremost,,Second.. We may knock the bengals medical staff but im sure they have seen this Before and werent overly concerned that with proper care/treatment he can play up to his abilities..
And he wants to Get paid so theres that motive for him to work his tail off

(05-02-2021, 05:37 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's the report that I pulled the quote from.

Yeah, I saw that one. I was hoping maybe you had seen something talking more about his specific situation. I've looked around, not a lot out there. I know he and his agent said he was medically cleared, and he has been working out and doing football drills...but haven't seen anything as far as timelines or whatever. He also did that workout for the 18 teams, and by all accounts it went pretty well, which was part of why SI predicted he would rise and go higher then expected...which is what ended up happening.

(05-02-2021, 05:52 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, I saw that one. I was hoping maybe you had seen something talking more about his specific situation. I've looked around, not a lot out there. I know he and his agent said he was medically cleared, and he has been working out and doing football drills...but haven't seen anything as far as timelines or whatever. He also did that workout for the 18 teams, and by all accounts it went pretty well, which was part of why SI predicted he would rise and go higher then expected...which is what ended up happening.

Most of the post draft stuff is only going to speak in a positive tone.  His NFL Draft/Combine profile fails to even mention the back surgery, yet it does speak much of his technical foot and handwork issues that need correction.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jackson-carman/32004341-5219-8645-d8f8-13f7e39c03a5

Quote:Overview
Carman might be able to offer emergency tackle value at the next level but he is better-suited for a move inside to guard. Regardless of position, he needs to improve placement and sustain with his hands to help stay connected as a blocker. He has enough pop to handle man-blocking duties inside and has adequate athleticism to go with his wide frame to help improve leaky interior pass protection. His footwork creates unorthodox fits into the block and that will need to be corrected or NFL defensive tackles will send him crashing to the ground. His lunging, lingering punch can be tightened up with more work so that he lands his heavy hands without worrying about being countered by hand-fighters. Carman has starting potential as a guard with emergency value at right tackle.

Strengths

• Diversified pass protection approach in 2020.
• Willing to set out on top of rushers early in rep.
• Throws hands quickly, looking for early advantage.
• Makes opponents feel his heavy hands.
• Effective use of snatch-and-trap technique.
• Clear eyes see exotic rush packages and twists.
• Enough recovery athleticism to work rusher past pocket.
• Generates good deal of push when he centers up on the block.
• Understands leverage to widen edge defenders on kick-outs.
• Very good timing on combos up to linebackers.
• Adequate reactive agility to adjust in space.
• Upper-body power to protect his edges.
  

Weaknesses

• High hands cause him to slide up and off the block.
• Quicker hand resets would improve sustain.
• Needs to bring feet with him into down blocks.
• Struggles finding his way to back-side block.
• Benefited from shallow drop points from his quarterback.
• Lunges, leaving hands extended for rushers to swipe and chop.
• Doesn't clamp in with hands to control rusher.
• Could struggle with edge speed and inside counters at tackle.
• Had weight management and accountability issues early in his career.
  

(05-02-2021, 06:03 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Most of the post draft stuff is only going to speak in a positive tone.  His NFL Draft/Combine profile fails to even mention the back surgery, yet it does speak much of his technical foot and handwork issues that need correction.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jackson-carman/32004341-5219-8645-d8f8-13f7e39c03a5

Having watched him at Clemson each week, that is a very fair write up. When he gets locked onto his guy, he was a brute. Certainly needs some polish to his game and the happy feet he would get against speed rushers was rough to see at times, but Lawrence was good at escaping pressure and moving in the pocket. In the run game, he can be a force.

All that being said, as a guard he has a chance to be a really good player on the line. The back needs to not be an issue and he needs to get coached up but there is potential here for a really nice option inside. 

I just don't want to see him at RT in the future, the images of Watt and Garrett twice a year going against him out there in space wouldn't be pretty.

(05-02-2021, 06:03 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Most of the post draft stuff is only going to speak in a positive tone.  His NFL Draft/Combine profile fails to even mention the back surgery, yet it does speak much of his technical foot and handwork issues that need correction.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/jackson-carman/32004341-5219-8645-d8f8-13f7e39c03a5

Some on the stuff on that list is based solely on his play as a LT, where was often left on an island against some very good pass rushers. He's not going to be a LT in the NFL though. He was never a natural LT, although he was able to hold his own there during his time at Clemson, and in some huge situations as well. I think his future is at RG. I know people are talking about him being the eventual RT, but I don't see that happening if he plays well inside. He has all the tools and physical traits to become a helluva RG, a Bobbie Williams type, IMO...as long as the back is good to go. 

(05-02-2021, 06:09 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Having watched him at Clemson each week, that is a very fair write up. When he gets locked onto his guy, he was a brute. Certainly needs some polish to his game and the happy feet he would get against speed rushers was rough to see at times, but Lawrence was good at escaping pressure and moving in the pocket. In the run game, he can be a force.

All that being said, as a guard he has a chance to be a really good player on the line. The back needs to not be an issue and he needs to get coached up but there is potential here for a really nice option inside. 

I just don't want to see him at RT in the future, the images of Watt and Garrett twice a year going against him out there in space wouldn't be pretty.

Agreed, everything about him projects inside, where he should be able to flourish. 

(05-02-2021, 06:15 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Some on the stuff on that list is based solely on his play as a LT, where was often left on an island against some very good pass rushers. He's not going to be a LT in the NFL though. He was never a natural LT, although he was able to hold his own there during his time at Clemson, and in some huge situations as well. I think his future is at RG. I know people are talking about him being the eventual RT, but I don't see that happening if he plays well inside. He has all the tools and physical traits to become a helluva RG, a Bobbie Williams type, IMO...as long as the back is good to go. 

Assuming that the back isn't a lingering, recurring issue, I'm sure that Coach Pollack can work with him on the hand and footwork issues.  I likely should have a little more faith in the coaches to develop these players, but after watching consecutive years of players regressing under Turner has me a bit cautious about trusting that OL players will actually improve after they arrive here.

(05-02-2021, 06:26 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Assuming that the back isn't a lingering, recurring issue, I'm sure that Coach Pollack can work with him on the hand and footwork issues.  I likely should have a little more faith in the coaches to develop these players, but after watching consecutive years of players regressing under Turner has me a bit cautious about trusting that OL players will actually improve after they arrive here.

Yeah, the Bengals best addition of the entire offseason may have been the subtraction of Turner's goofy ass. 

(05-02-2021, 06:26 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:  I likely should have a little more faith in the coaches to develop these players

Yes, you should. What's the worst that could happen? 

(05-01-2021, 09:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=198616

Maybe you need to get NFL Level medical procedures?

That deals with the neck, not the lower back. Did Carman have a neck or lower back problem?