(01-06-2025, 07:38 PM)Housh Wrote: I can’t remember one d lineman that got better when they got here besides Trey

Bj Hill. Possibly Reader

I want to keep Tee although I realize the cost is troublesome.  However every time I hear others talk about the Bengals, nobody wants to play us with Tee and Chase together.

We kind of strike fear into other teams.

(01-06-2025, 06:20 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m all for letting him cook (trust me I’m a big WR guy lol), but we also need to be able to close out games on the ground. Joe’s INT late in the first Ravens game this season is a perfect example.

You're not wrong....and I liked what I saw from Chase Brown as the year went on. I think we can do more salting with improved play "up the gut". Herbert looked ok as a change of pace as well. 

(01-06-2025, 07:39 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Bj Hill. Possibly Reader

I’ll give you Bj Hill

But Reader was always that good wasn’t he?




This is the issue with grading coaches

How much was just natural progression that was always gonna happen and how much was coaching and how do you even measure that?

(01-06-2025, 06:35 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Wyche, if you don't remember I've been posting on these message boards for over 15 years (crazy to think that this site is almost 10 years old and I was posting on the mothership for a while). I know that our drafting has been pretty awful. Tobin is only around still (IMO) because he's not demanding to be a GM so Brown can keep that title as well as owner. We both should know that because our scouting department is so much smaller than everyone else that we use our coaches as scouts and evaluators as well. Yes, bad drafts fall on Tobin just as much as Zac. If I had to guess whoever the HC is has more of a say in who we draft as well. 

Yes, coaches have specialties but they're still the head coach. They still are in charge of both offense and defense. They're still in charge of shaping both sides of the field. As a "offensive" coach Zac probably goes along with mostly whatever the DC says, but it still falls on him to fix something if the DC isn't doing a good job. It's not good if a HC is oblivious on everything but offense.

I know you've been around, that's why I was puzzled, lol. I remember you being a big Dalton supporter. You remember how everything negative was his fault, but he got zero credit when he played well? I just feel like a portion of the fanbase is doing it all over again, except this time it's Zac.

I used to have a lot of the same opinions you're sharing about ZT in regards to ML. Now, it's two straight staffs with similar problems. Decent to good rosters, but no moves to push it over the top. The offensive line has been a problem since 2016. I have a hard time blaming coaches for that now. They haven't hit on a dlineman since Sam Hubbard. Again, that's two staffs. 

Believe me, if he misses the playoffs next year and the defense is much improved and/or the offense regresses, he's got to go. However, I'm not going to gloss over the good that has been achieved with this bush league front office either. 

One more bit about the scouting, I think it's absolutely absurd to expect a staff to prepare and coach a NFL team, while having to scout college talent. One, or both of those tasks is going to be hindered simply because there aren't enough people and hours in a day to go around. That's just a fact of life. Should a staff be doing installs and reps and watching college film in the same week? Does this system afford the coaches the time to go watch prospects, see how they interact on the bench and with coaches? Talk in depth and in person with said coaches? I don't think so. 

Also, he did fire his friend Lou, so he noticed the problem and reacted to it. 

(01-06-2025, 08:10 PM)Wyche Wrote: I know you've been around, that's why I was puzzled, lol. I remember you being a big Dalton supporter. You remember how everything negative was his fault, but he got zero credit when he played well? I just feel like a portion of the fanbase is doing it all over again, except this time it's Zac.

bingo

Been a busy day, no time to read 300 previous posts right now.

And, it's about damn time! Let's hope that they make better choices for the future coaches.

I wonder if this dude slides into Pollack's role: https://www.bengals.com/team/coaches-roster/derek-frazier

(01-06-2025, 06:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't think strength itself is the problem, I think it's much more technique, leverage, and hand placement.
DL is getting under and into the OL, driving them back on skates.

Of course I agree. That is coaching, which is why I am happy we moved on from Pollack, that is, as long as the replacement can teach those things.

(01-06-2025, 05:52 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s never recovered from the injury he suffered at the end of 22.

But to answer your question I’m all for a change at OL even if I think Pollack is a bit of a scapegoat for Duke among this fanbase. They need to find someone who’s a better fit with Zac’s offense.

Yes, we agree here for sure. Zac's scheme didn't help Pollack out either. If we can find a better fit scheme wise who can teach the fundamentals
we should be much better off. It wasn't all Pollack's fault, as said, bad drafting and such. Still happy with us moving on.

(01-06-2025, 11:48 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I saw it on SI.com. Glad Pollock and Hobby are gone. Still conflicted on Lou.

Yeah I thought Lou did well - especially  last several weeks.  The defe several against Pittsburgh was a work of art.  Should have kept him.   Good with the others.   Hope they have a plan...

(01-06-2025, 09:01 PM)3wt Wrote: Yeah I thought Lou did well - especially  last several weeks.  The defe several against Pittsburgh was a work of art.  Should have kept him.   Good with the others.   Hope they have a plan...

Lou took the fall for what was ultimately Duke's failure

(01-06-2025, 09:01 PM)3wt Wrote: Yeah I thought Lou did well - especially  last several weeks.  The defe several against Pittsburgh was a work of art.  Should have kept him.   Good with the others.   Hope they have a plan...

Lou's Defense was always pretty much mid pack and that was when we were paying a ton to our Defense.

He always relied on turnovers at the biggest times to overcome bad overall play.

The tackling the last couple years was terrible. That is a direct reflection on the DC. I am happy we moved on.

One of the few things we have disagreed on 3wt.

(01-06-2025, 09:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Lou took the fall for what was ultimately Duke's failure

As much as I don't like Duke, Lou had the bye week to get his Defense ready for the checkdown Offense of the stealers and let them score 44.

I wanted Lou fired right then, I don't care that his Defense did better after that, it was too late, and he had plenty of time to prepare for that 
Offense and it was an embarrassment. We didn't make the Playoffs because of him. Wish we could move on from Duke as well but that isn't 
going to happen with him pretty much being family of the Brown's/Blackburns.

Whaddaya know? The Bengals web site already scrubbed their profiles from Bengals.com.. They don't even update players that quick.. 

(01-06-2025, 09:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Lou took the fall for what was ultimately Duke's failure

10000%

(01-06-2025, 08:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Of course I agree. That is coaching, which is why I am happy we moved on from Pollack, that is, as long as the replacement can teach those things.

I dont think its any of the aforementioned..I watched the detroit game...they have great linmen...we dont

(01-06-2025, 02:44 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: If we underschieve next year, Duke and ZT are gone, too. 

Best believe, the excuses of having to deal with new coaches is already being set up for next year, should things not go well.

Pollack did not work out here simply because he was not able to tailor his blocking schemes and what he taught to the way Joe Burrow plays offense.

Lou had to go simply because he was unable or unwilling to tailor his defense to the strengths of his players - he kept trying to do things the other way around only changing after 12 games - I actually think the defense responding to him junking a lot of his scheme was an indictment on Lou the braintrust did not ignore.

(01-06-2025, 09:09 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Lou took the fall for what was ultimately Duke's failure

2019: 29th Overall/25th Scoring
2020: 26th Overall/22nd Scoring
2021: 18th Overall/17th Scoring
2022: 16th Overall/6th Scoring
2023: 31st Overall/21st Scoring
2024: 25th Overall/25th Scoring

Yeah, Lou really took the fall for someone else's failure. 

Duke isn't good, but Lou isn't either, he took the fall because he isn't a good DC. We hired him as a first time coordinator in his 50s, he was our 6th or 7th choice for DC in 2019, and he's produced a below-average defense in 5 of the 6 years since.

(01-06-2025, 10:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2019: 29th Overall/25th Scoring
2020: 26th Overall/22nd Scoring
2021: 18th Overall/17th Scoring
2022: 16th Overall/6th Scoring
2023: 31st Overall/21st Scoring
2024: 25th Overall/25th Scoring

Yeah, Lou really took the fall for someone else's failure. 

Duke isn't good, but Lou isn't either, he took the fall because he isn't a good DC. We hired him as a first time coordinator in his 50s, he was our 6th or 7th choice for DC in 2019, and he's produced a below-average defense in 5 of the 6 years since.

we know. Im not rehashing this argument again. Guy was money in the playoffs though