(10-14-2016, 04:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Hey Fred (or anyone else), any debates on where certain coaches are ranked in this list?

No debate, but I just have to ask, is there any other man in the entire NFL that owes his success as a Head Coach more to his QB than one Mike Tomlin?  Not saying guys like a McCarthy doesn't get help making his system look great with Rodgers operating it, but I still believe he is a good coach regardless as to who his QB is for the most part.  Tomlin?  The dude lucked into a such a prime spot it's not even funny.

(10-14-2016, 03:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why give a coach credit for playing in a weak division?  That has nothing to do with coaching skills.

Didn't you just go on to say in a later post that a team that made the playoffs should have more points than a team with a similar record that didn't make the playoffs?  Would that not have to do with the strength of each respective division and conference?  Because it sure looked like you were arguing that, despite playing a weaker division, that team should have more points.

So which it is, are you arguing for or against valuing the strength of a division?  Cuz it seems like you're jumping from argument to argument, just for the sake of having one.

(10-14-2016, 04:14 PM)J24 Wrote: Just curious what would Marvin point total look like if you just look at it from 08- 15?

Pretty sure you mean '09 to '15. Marv averaged +7.3 in those years. That would rank 15th.

It wouldn't be fair to cut certain years from Marv, but not other coaches though.

Also, for anyone wondering, Sam Wyche averaged +2.4 for his career, including the Bucs.

(10-14-2016, 04:52 PM)JumboTron Wrote: No debate, but I just have to ask, is there any other man in the entire NFL that owes his success as a Head Coach more to his QB than one Mike Tomlin?  Not saying guys like a McCarthy doesn't get help making his system look great with Rodgers operating it, but I still believe he is a good coach regardless as to who his QB is for the most part.  Tomlin?  The dude lucked into a such a prime spot it's not even funny.

Nothing funny about it.

(10-14-2016, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Won loss records are not subjective.  In fact that is exactly what is being used in this analysis.  If a team wins a division with 7 or 8 wins then that is a weak division.



Apology accepted.  But the question is "Is the difference between a 7-9 team and an 11-5 team worth THREE TIMES as much as the difference between a 9-7 team and an 11-5 team? 


So in your opinion there is no value to making the playoffs?  Seems kind of silly to me.  

Also claiming that a 10-6 division champion (15 points) is THREE TIMES BETTER than a 11-5 wildcard team (5 points) makes no sense to me.

I'm intrigued to see your system.


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(10-14-2016, 05:34 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I'm intrigued to see your system.


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He takes a page on how SAT points are given and gives Lewis extra points just because. 

(10-14-2016, 05:34 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I'm intrigued to see your system.


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(10-14-2016, 05:45 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: He takes a page on how SAT points are given and gives Lewis extra points just because. 

Nice work Shake ! Thanks

And if anything Marvin should get deductions for not being able to win a playoff game. And being owned by his main division rival.

Bottom line no matter how you crack it up ML can't produce the results, and should be shown the door.

We all know however, he won't.

(10-14-2016, 05:34 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I'm intrigued to see your system.


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Me too.  I'm sure he'll have it up shortly.

Somewhat off topic I suppose, but I find myself more and more dumbfounded by Bill Belichick's success as each year passes. I mean that more in a sense of awe than anything else. I just can't wrap my head around just how good of a coach he is. In my life (37 years) I've never seen anything like it. Not even anything close to it. And I can't stand the guy fwiw, I think he's perfectly described as simply as being an asshole. Such a gigantic asshole.

How in the hell does he do it? He's won with a defense and a below average offense, he's won with an offense and a below average defense. He's won with an offense designed around a strong running game, with a conservative pass offense. He's won with an offense designed with a strong pass game, with little no run game. He's won with Randy Moss at WR1, and he's won with Aaron Dobson at WR1. Corey Dillon vs Ben Jarvis Green Ellis. etc. etc.

Of course Tom Brady helps, but then he went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. And not, we prepared the entire offseason for Matt Cassell, he's getting number reps, we're building the playbook around him. The, throw him to the wolves, haven't started a game since High School, Matt Cassell.

No Gronk? No problem. You're newly inked 40 million dollar Tight End convicted of murder? No problem. You have so many injuries you have to play your WR1 (Troy Brown) both ways, and he playing CB? No problem.

They were beating the absolute tar out of the teams with Jimmy Gralapalo. They were winning with the #3 QB when he was healthy.

Year after year after year this guy just dominates this league. It doesn't matter that there's a salary cap, or that other teams get rewarded with better picks for doing worse. It doesn't matter that you give all these other coaches and staffs time to adjust and improve. He just keeps winning.

The only name I can think of enjoyed a similar run would be Red Aurbach. Other than that I got nothing that could compare. I don't know how you couldn't have as the best NFL coach of all time. Not sure who would even be close. I mean, I love Bill Walsh. He's got a great resume. But Belichick's list of accomplishments just keeps growing and growing.

All that said, **** him. Like I said earlier, he's a dick. And at the end of the day, nothing trumps being an asshole. I want only bad things to happen to him football wise from here on out.

Agree with all you said about BB. He was a completely average coach in Cleveland, so his constant success in NE is puzzling and frustrating. Parity be damned, they've had a winning record for 15 years straight. Literally the only team to sniff that kind of success in the salary cap/FA era. I honestly believe you could put the Jaguars in Patriots uniforms and Belichick would somehow get them 12 wins and a deep playoff run. Just makes you wonder what he does that's so different.

(10-14-2016, 10:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Somewhat off topic I suppose, but I find myself more and more dumbfounded by Bill Belichick's success as each year passes.  I mean that more in a sense of awe than anything else.  I just can't wrap my head around just how good of a coach he is.  In my life (37 years) I've never seen anything like it.  Not even anything close to it.  And I can't stand the guy fwiw, I think he's perfectly described as simply as being an asshole.  Such a gigantic asshole.

How in the hell does he do it?  He's won with a defense and a below average offense, he's won with an offense and a below average defense.  He's won with an offense designed around a strong running game, with a conservative pass offense.  He's won with an offense designed with a strong pass game, with little no run game.  He's won with Randy Moss at WR1, and he's won with Aaron Dobson at WR1.  Corey Dillon vs Ben Jarvis Green Ellis. etc. etc.

Of course Tom Brady helps, but then he went 11-5 with Matt Cassell.  And not, we prepared the entire offseason for Matt Cassell, he's getting number reps, we're building the playbook around him.  The, throw him to the wolves, haven't started a game since High School, Matt Cassell.

No Gronk?  No problem.  You're newly inked 40 million dollar Tight End convicted of murder?  No problem.  You have so many injuries you have to play your WR1 (Troy Brown) both ways, and he playing CB?  No problem.

They were beating the absolute tar out of the teams with Jimmy Gralapalo.  They were winning with the #3 QB when he was healthy.

Year after year after year this guy just dominates this league.  It doesn't matter that there's a salary cap, or that other teams get rewarded with better picks for doing worse.  It doesn't matter that you give all these other coaches and staffs time to adjust and improve.  He just keeps winning.

The only name I can think of enjoyed a similar run would be Red Aurbach.  Other than that I got nothing that could compare.  I don't know how you couldn't have as the best NFL coach of all time.  Not sure who would even be close.  I mean, I love Bill Walsh.  He's got a great resume.  But Belichick's list of accomplishments just keeps growing and growing.

All that said, **** him.  Like I said earlier, he's a dick.  And at the end of the day, nothing trumps being an asshole.  I want only bad things to happen to him football wise from here on out.

The man is a football genius in a very literal sense.  His late father, Steve was also a football coach but he was well known for his capacity as a scout and developing a keen eye for talent and spotting previously underrated or unused personnel and coaching them into productive players, a trait that was obviously passed onto Bill himself.

Very interesting, and I forget what program it was, but they were talking to a Professor of Psychology at Ohio State who specializes in studying childhood prodigies, and she said, from the information she gathered such as Steve sitting Bill down starting at very young age to breakdown film of both games and scouting films (both of which Bill became extremely proficient at), that Belichick exhibited from a young age all the characteristics of a prodigy. 

The man was literally bred to not only be a football coach in terms of learning strategy and high level schematics, but also have an ungodly great eye for personnel as evidenced by his drafts, roster management and the decisions (curious at times) to release older talented players a year or two before their skills noticeably diminish, only to replace them with young players most other teams would scoff at. Players who more often than not, help them win World Championships.  He is the best at what he does, and in my opinion the best to have ever done it.


...And like most geniuses he displays, at times, antisocial behavior that yes....makes him an asshole

Nice job Shake, thanks for all the work you've done here;nice read! I found it interesting that for coaches with five or more years experience in the league, Marvin outranked only Jason Garrett and Jack Del Rio, a telling stat. As for Bellichick, he's right where he belongs, at the top; and several of those years were with the Browns. Fortunately, they fired him after a what, 11-5 year and he went to the Pats...only the Browns could pull that off, I'm glad they did!

Well, I'm not sure about the division champ thing either. It's too many points, and a wildcard team that wins in the playoffs should get more than a division champ who loses it's playoff game.

Other than that I like it. Marv's near the bottom once you take out the 0-2 year guys who are most likely rebuilding teams.

(10-14-2016, 03:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The 8-8 division champ (pretty rare if we're honest) likely won their key division matchups in order to take the division. They would deserve credit for that. 

Shake, I applaud you for doing the work and being as fair as you can be without using a dozen additional factors to separate the close ones.

(10-14-2016, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Won loss records are not subjective.  In fact that is exactly what is being used in this analysis.  If a team wins a division with 7 or 8 wins then that is a weak division.



Apology accepted.  But the question is "Is the difference between a 7-9 team and an 11-5 team worth THREE TIMES as much as the difference between a 9-7 team and an 11-5 team? 


So in your opinion there is no value to making the playoffs?  Seems kind of silly to me.  

Also claiming that a 10-6 division champion (15 points) is THREE TIMES BETTER than a 11-5 wildcard team (5 points) makes no sense to me.

I'm not quoting anything in particular about this post except for the fact that Fred posted it.
  
Fred your boy can't seem to win a playoff game here in Cincy. He's had every chance to, "just be better" as he loves to say but he doesn't practice what he preaches.

This locker room doesn't respect his words anymore and at this point I can understand their reasoning on the matter.

He's been good in many ways for this organization and deserves credit for that. That said, the locker room needs a new voice.

I'm with Wes. I certainly appreciate all that effort.

(10-15-2016, 03:50 AM)Thundercloud Wrote: I'm with Wes.  I certainly appreciate all that effort.

Me too, well done sir!

(10-14-2016, 10:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agree with all you said about BB. He was a completely average coach in Cleveland, so his constant success in NE is puzzling and frustrating. Parity be damned, they've had a winning record for 15 years straight. Literally the only team to sniff that kind of success in the salary cap/FA era. I honestly believe you could put the Jaguars in Patriots uniforms and Belichick would somehow get them 12 wins and a deep playoff run. Just makes you wonder what he does that's so different.

I don't know that you can call him average during his time in Cleveland.  He had a couple 7-9 seasons, but then went 11-5 and won a playoff game in his fourth year.  I believe the last team started 4-0 until Modell let is be known that the team was moving the following year.  Have you seen the list of people he had on that staff and front office?  Ozzie Newsome, Thomas Dimitroff, Scott Pioli, Nick Saban, Kirk Ferentz, Eric Mangini, Jim Schwartz...  if Cleveland would have given Modell a new stadium, and the Browns stayed there, I've always thought they would have a couple Super Bowls.

As to the genius that is Bill Belichick, it is simply unrivaled.  I was watching NFL Network the other day and they quoted some old coach in a very southern tone to describe Belichick, "he'll take his and beat yours or he'll take yours and beat his".  As Toast says, it doesn't matter what he has or what he is up against he just finds a way to get it done.  The guy has four Super Bowl wins, and is two miraculous catches away from six.  The guy is just all about winning.

Looking up at John Fox and Jim Caldwell in any type of coaches rank is not good.