(11-02-2016, 10:14 PM)sixxfan26 Wrote: Agreed. I've always felt like a lot of our starters (not all) would be either 2nd string for other clubs, or not in the NFL at all.

Then Marvin must be one hell of a coach to win so many games with so many bad players.

(11-02-2016, 09:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Maybe it's the contrarian in you just loving to pick stances that you know will be ridiculous, but you need to get over your love of defending bad coaches (Brat/Marvin/Alexander) and bad players (Nuge).

Nothing "contrarian" about defending good coaches and players.

Paul Alexander is highly regarded all over the country except in Cincinnati.   Sports Illustarted selected him as the best O-line coach in the league.  Cincy fans just love to hate.  They have hated on a long list of players that never deserved it.  The called Justin Smith garbage.  For a long time they claimed Leon Hall coulf not cover fast receivers and that Whitworth was so bad in pass protection that he should be moved to guard.  And I know you are familiar with all the so-0called fans who were absolutely certain that Andy Dalton was garbage.

Just last year there were even some clown around here who claimed Dre Kirkpatrick was one of the worst CBs in the entire league.   And right now there are a lot of people here who claim Marvin is the worst coach on the league aand even worse than every college and high school coach.  Those claims are absolutely absurd, but for some reason i don't see you calling those people out.

Good players make good coaches. Coaches get too much credit when a team does well and too much blame for when it does badly. A lot of the time it comes down to the players you have acquired through the draft and free agency. A gm has as much or more impact on a team than a coach. The coach is the first one to get fired but that's basically a function of being the scapegoat for the gm.

So some of this blame should be on tobin. Hes the one who brought in dansby when we could have possibly signed an impact young lb like trevathon. Hes the one who didnt sign nelson when we had cap space for it. That forced us to to put iloka in at free safety when hes a natural strong safety. This can send shock waves through the defense when players are playing out of their natural position.

If lewis is too blame its for bringing in coaches that probably weren't the correct fit for the bengals. It seems that guenther isn't meshing well with them. I can tell through subtle hints by him saying things like I can't go to these new coaches and talk about this play or that play like I used to be able to do with the previous assistant coaches. He seems to be having trouble developing chemistry with the assistant defensive coaches.

(11-03-2016, 07:39 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Good players make good coaches.  Coaches get too much credit when a team does well and too much blame for when it does badly. A lot of the time it comes down to the players you have acquired through the draft and free agency. A gm has as much or more impact on a team than a coach. The coach is the first one to get fired but that's basically a function of being the scapegoat for the gm.  

So some of this blame should be on tobin. Hes the one who brought in dansby when we could have possibly signed an impact  young lb like trevathon. Hes the one who didnt sign nelson when we had cap space for it.  That forced us to to put iloka in at free safety when hes a natural strong safety. This can send shock waves through the defense when players are playing out of their natural position.

If lewis is too blame its for bringing in coaches that probably weren't the correct fit for the bengals. It seems that guenther isn't meshing well with them. I can tell through subtle hints by him saying things like I can't go to these new coaches and talk about this play or that play  like I used to be able to do with the previous assistant coaches. He seems to be having trouble developing chemistry with the assistant defensive coaches.

False, the general talent level in the NFL is pretty well evenly distributed.  That is by design, as the league didn't want "dynasties", thus every facet of the process leads more to the process of drafting, coaching, and managing a salary cap as fundamentals that must be mastered in order to produce a championship team.

The league is set up to create parity, from giving last place teams more games versus last place finishing teams from the previous year, to free agency allowing players to seek jobs of higher compensation that result in teams not being able to stockpile a roster of star quality backups, to giving division winning teams the toughest schedules each year.

Not sure where you can say that coaches get too much credit for teams winning or losing, when the entire league structure is set up to make a level playing field.  The teams that win, are the ones that are not only the best managed, but the best coached.

(11-03-2016, 08:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: False, the general talent level in the NFL is pretty well evenly distributed.  That is by design, as the league didn't want "dynasties", thus every facet of the process leads more to the process of drafting, coaching, and managing a salary cap as fundamentals that must be mastered in order to produce a championship team.

The league is set up to create parity, from giving last place teams more games versus last place finishing teams from the previous year, to free agency allowing players to seek jobs of higher compensation that result in teams not being able to stockpile a roster of star quality backups, to giving division winning teams the toughest schedules each year.

Not sure where you can say that coaches get too much credit for teams winning or losing, when the entire league structure is set up to make a level playing field.  The teams that win, are the ones that are not only the best managed, but the best coached.

The talent level is not the same for every team. The good teams have way better players than the bad teams. Look at the browns. Their best offensive weapon is a former qb turned wideout. You cant sit there and say they have the same level of talent as the bengals. It's not even close. I don't care who was coaching the browns that team isn't going to do well because that team lacks talent.

A great coach would make the browns go from a horrible team into just a below average team. Say 5 wins. Bad coaching has turned a very talented team in the bengals into an above average team. I still think we'll get 9 wins or so.

Hugh Jackson is by no means a bad coach and he can't get a win with the browns.

A good coach can make a good player into a great player. He wont make a bad player into a great player. A bad coach will turn a great player into just a good or average player. The talent level on a team is more important than the coaches.  GM's have more impact than coaches do. That includes drafting good players that fit the team system.

Look at the last couple of drafts. They havent been as strong as previous drafts and the bengals are paying the price for it. It looks like we missed on ogbuegi and fischer. It's gotten dalton sacked a lot more than he should be sacked and hurting the offense. No offensive scheme and good coaching can help when your qb is getting pressured 1 second after the snap. Talent matters the most and not every team has the same talent.

(11-03-2016, 08:20 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: The talent level is not the same for every team. The good teams have way better players than the bad teams. Look at the browns. Their best offensive weapon  is a former qb turned wideout. You cant sit there and say they have the same level of talent as the bengals. It's not even close. I don't care who was coaching the browns that team isn't going to do well because that team lacks talent.

A good coach can make a good player into a great player. He wont make a bad player into a great player. A bad coach will turn a great player into just a good or average player. The talent level on a team is more important than the coaches.  GM's have more impact than coaches do. That includes drafting good players that fit the team system.

Look at the last couple of drafts. They havent been as strong as previous drafts and the bengals are paying the price for it. It looks like we missed on ogbuegi and fischer. It's gotten dalton sacked a lot more than he should be sacked and hurting the offense. No offensive scheme and good coaching can help when your qb is getting pressured 1 second after the snap. Talent matters the most and not every team has the same talent.

False, the Browns have plenty of talent, and had more as recently as this offseason.  They, Hue Jackson and company, decided to throw this season in the tank before it even started.  They have released and traded away talented players, because they want to build a team from the ground, up.

By and large, the talent among NFL teams is relatively equal.  It is the coaching, scheming, and selection of talent that fits the style that you want to run that makes the difference.

(11-03-2016, 08:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: False, the Browns have plenty of talent, and had more as recently as this offseason.  They, Hue Jackson and company, decided to throw this season in the tank before it even started.  They have released and traded away talented players, because they want to build a team from the ground, up.

By and large, the talent among NFL teams is relatively equal.  It is the coaching, scheming, and selection of talent that fits the style that you want to run that makes the difference.

The  why did Bill Belichick go 10 years without winning a Super Bowl?

How did Mike Tomlin win 2 Super Bowls then fail to even have a winning season for a couple of years (12-13)?

Good teams need BOTH good coaching and good players.  A coach can call the perfect play, but if the players do not execute then the play will not work.  On the other hand a player can have a ton of talent, but if the coach does not use him properly he will not be productive.

(11-03-2016, 08:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: False, the Browns have plenty of talent, and had more as recently as this offseason.  They, Hue Jackson and company, decided to throw this season in the tank before it even started.  They have released and traded away talented players, because they want to build a team from the ground, up.

By and large, the talent among NFL teams is relatively equal.  It is the coaching, scheming, and selection of talent that fits the style that you want to run that makes the difference.

Bullshit the talent is the same for every team.  Average coached talented teams will crush a  well coached team like the browns any day.

Lets assume we have a below average coaching staff. Most people will say the bengals have one of the most talented teams in the enitire league. The browns are probably a better coached team than the bengals and very little talent. So who won between us this year. We did. Why because talent supersedes coaching.

(11-03-2016, 08:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The  why did Bill Belichick go 10 years without winning a Super Bowl?

How did Mike Tomlin win 2 Super Bowls then fail to even have a winning season for a couple of years (12-13)?

Good teams need BOTH good coaching and good players.  A coach can call the perfect play, but if the players do not execute then the play will not work.  On the other hand a player can have a ton of talent, but if the coach does not use him properly he will not be productive.

You forgot talent selection.  A team must pick the RIGHT players that fit in with the game plan that they are running.  The HC must have the perfect master plan to do battle, and the coordinators must be experts to orchestrate the HC's designated game plan, and the Position Coaches must be able to teach and develop the players particular skills to fit the plan. 

Sure, there are special players that come around once every few years.  But, by and large, most players considered talented enough to play in the NFL are of similar talent level.  It is the job of the organization to select the correct talent, and move them to produce to the best of their ability.

(11-03-2016, 08:48 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Bullshit the talent is the same for every team.  Average coached talented teams will crush a  well coached team like the browns any day.

So, then why have the Browns jumped out to leads on some teams this season, only to blow it?

(11-03-2016, 08:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You forgot talent selection. 

And you forgot to answer my question.

Is Mike Tomlin a Super Bowl winning coach or an 8-8 coach?

(11-03-2016, 08:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And you forgot to answer my question.

Is Mike Tomlin a Super Bowl winning coach or an 8-8 coach?

Seeing how his team won Championships, I guess that makes him a Super Bowl winning coach.

(11-03-2016, 08:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Seeing how his team won Championships, I guess that makes him a Super Bowl winning coach.

Then why did he go 8-8 for two straight years ('12-'13)?

(11-03-2016, 08:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, then why have the Browns jumped out to leads on some teams this season, only to blow it?

Because they lack talent to finish the game off and win.  They might might have gotten lucky to jump into a lead but eventually the cream rises to the top.  The browns are definitely not the cream of the crop.  They're the sludge at the bottom of a swimming pool.  Even a supposed offensive mastermind like hugh jackson cant squeeze water out of a stone.

(11-02-2016, 01:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is.  Just ask Besnahan, Bratkowski, Fitzgerald and others.

I don't know why people around here have to make stuff up to complain about.  Just makes them sound stupid.

You're one delusional fan

(11-03-2016, 08:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And you forgot to answer my question.

Is Mike Tomlin a Super Bowl winning coach or an 8-8 coach?

Are you really asking this have you been drinking tonight? 

(11-03-2016, 09:23 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Are you really asking this have you been drinking tonight? 

I am really asking.

And it seems you have no answer.

(11-03-2016, 09:23 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Are you really asking this have you been drinking tonight? 

I am really asking.


Do you have an answer?

(11-03-2016, 09:18 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: You're one delusional fan

I don't think you understand the definition of "delusional".

I am the one posting facts.  The people who claim that the Bengals never fire coaches or release players under contract are the ones who have lost touch with reality.

(11-03-2016, 08:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You forgot talent selection.  A team must pick the RIGHT players that fit in with the game plan that they are running.  The HC must have the perfect master plan to do battle, and the coordinators must be experts to orchestrate the HC's designated game plan, and the Position Coaches must be able to teach and develop the players particular skills to fit the plan. 

Sure, there are special players that come around once every few years.  But, by and large, most players considered talented enough to play in the NFL are of similar talent level.  It is the job of the organization to select the correct talent, and move them to produce to the best of their ability.

It seems these great points are not part of the Bengal master plan.