(04-07-2017, 08:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: How stupid of the Bengals not to go with the player who has poor measurables and no upside.

The fact is Grady Jarrett was a fifth round pick.  No team in the league thought a lot of him.  And he is just an average DT on a poor defense, so Hardison may end up being better than him anyway,

Another proclamation from the all knowing Fredtoast.

Grady Jarrett started and played well on a SB team that got much better as the season went on.

Jarrett is obviously the much better pick right now and before the draft many compared him to Geno with his penetration.

Plus he was not a project like Hardison who is more of a hybrid at this point.

(04-07-2017, 12:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Another proclamation from the all knowing Fredtoast.

Grady Jarrett started and played well on a SB team that got much better as the season went on.

Jarrett is obviously the much better pick right now and before the draft many compared him to Geno with his penetration.

Plus he was not a project like Hardison who is more of a hybrid at this point.

Every player in the 5th round is a bit of a project.  they have to improve on something or they would not be drafted that low.

What I have a problem with is people using 20/20 hindsight to claim that somehow a fith round pick was a sure thing and the Bengals were stupid to pass on him.

(04-07-2017, 01:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Every player in the 5th round is a bit of a project.  they have to improve on something or they would not be drafted that low.

What I have a problem with is people using 20/20 hindsight to claim that somehow a fith round pick was a sure thing and the Bengals were stupid to pass on him.

Fair enough.

I can understand it though as Jarrett was a favorite around here in the mid rounds..

I was one of them that wanted the guy, but i liked the Hardison pick at the time. Injuries have held him back.

(04-05-2017, 05:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Once again, DeShawn Williams has had many more opportunities to show his ability because he's been healthy the past two years. Yet in that time, he's only been activated for four games and only amassed 2 tackles and half a sack.

Meanwhile, Marcus Hardison has not had a chance to even take a single snap in the regular season because of injuries in both preseasons.

Assuming health prevails for both players, I have more faith in a 4th round pick that was a projected third rounder and touted as a pass rush specialist but hasn't had a chance to play yet due to injury than I have in an undrafted PS player who came up just because of injuries and has been a healthy scratch for most games and only put up half a sack in four games played.

Yes, he didn't have a chance to play outside of preseason, that's why I brought up preseason stats and facts. And Williams looked better than Hardison in the preseason. Preseason should be taken with a grain of salt, but Hardison has proved nothing so we can't always go by "Oh he was projected to go here so he's automatically better". That's not always the case

Understandable to have more faith in the 4th rounder, I understand that. But he hasn't been healthy and even when he has been in the preseason, he hasn't been that great. He's overrated on these boards. I mean, it happens. I've overrated players, we all do.

(04-07-2017, 02:44 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Yes, he didn't have a chance to play outside of preseason, that's why I brought up preseason stats and facts. And Williams looked better than Hardison in the preseason. Preseason should be taken with a grain of salt, but Hardison has proved nothing so we can't always go by "Oh he was projected to go here so he's automatically better". That's not always the case

Understandable to have more faith in the 4th rounder, I understand that. But he hasn't been healthy and even when he has been in the preseason, he hasn't been that great. He's overrated on these boards. I mean, it happens. I've overrated players, we all do.

Sure hope to see something from the guy someday.

Haven't had much to look at and you are right from the little we have saw, DeShawn has looked better.

When we trotted out Clarke, Atkins, Williams, Dunlap last year we looked much better against the pass particularly.

(04-07-2017, 02:44 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Yes, he didn't have a chance to play outside of preseason, that's why I brought up preseason stats and facts. And Williams looked better than Hardison in the preseason. Preseason should be taken with a grain of salt, but Hardison has proved nothing so we can't always go by "Oh he was projected to go here so he's automatically better". That's not always the case

Understandable to have more faith in the 4th rounder, I understand that. But he hasn't been healthy and even when he has been in the preseason, he hasn't been that great. He's overrated on these boards. I mean, it happens. I've overrated players, we all do.

That's fair. How many times do we mock a mid-round pick in the draft to replace a player who hasn't panned out after just their first or second year? It's more of the hope of the unknown vs the (lack of) performance of the incumbent. Perhaps the incumbent is actually better than the unknown. But since we can't fully compare due to Hardison's injuries, we (at least I) have hope he should be better based on his scouting report and draft round.

BTW, Derek Barnett is falling down my board the more i look at these Ends.

Really liking some of the guys being talked about in the 2nd like Jordan Willis, Takk McKinley, Carl Lawson, Derek Rivers etc.

(04-07-2017, 03:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: BTW, Derek Barnett is falling down my board the more i look at these Ends.

Really liking some of the guys being talked about in the 2nd like Jordan Willis, Takk McKinley, Carl Lawson, Derek Rivers etc.

Personally, I like the first three you mentioned much more than I like Barnett.

Barnett is a stud .o don't get why people aren't fans of him

(04-07-2017, 04:01 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Personally, I like the first three you mentioned much more than I like Barnett.

Jordan Willis i do, the only reason he is not mentioned as a first rounder is the small college and his weight.

Great pass rusher and run stopper in college, Willis can do it all and i think will be a star in the NFL.

With the others there is a reason they are mentioned as 2nd rounders but i understand why some don't like Barnett at 9 now.

(04-07-2017, 04:06 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Barnett is a stud   .o don't get why people aren't fans of him

He is not very physical, not the best at stopping the run, is on the smaller side and did most his damage against lesser competition.

Still love his hands and pass rush skills. Not saying i would not like the pick at 9 just saying i am liking some guys in the 2nd more now.

(04-07-2017, 02:44 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Yes, he didn't have a chance to play outside of preseason, that's why I brought up preseason stats and facts. And Williams looked better than Hardison in the preseason. Preseason should be taken with a grain of salt, but Hardison has proved nothing so we can't always go by "Oh he was projected to go here so he's automatically better". That's not always the case

Understandable to have more faith in the 4th rounder, I understand that. But he hasn't been healthy and even when he has been in the preseason, he hasn't been that great. He's overrated on these boards. I mean, it happens. I've overrated players, we all do.

It is possible to still have hope for Hardison, he has been slowed by injury.  So to me he still has that 50/50 chance of all fourth rounders to become a solid NFL player.

But there is no way we should be depending on him filling a role.  If he busts out that will be great, but we can't count on it.

(04-07-2017, 04:06 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Barnett is a stud   .o don't get why people aren't fans of him

I don't like him at #9. He's a little light in the loafers. He may end up being very good, but right now I think the veteran Olinemen will put hands on him and own him physically.

He may do alright, but it's probably gonna be a serious adjustment for him. In other words, he's another project at the NFL level. His college stats are great, but now he needs to add weight, without losing burst; which makes him a project.

I don't think he's as sure of a player at #9 as Fournette,Foster, or Howard.

(04-08-2017, 01:40 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I don't like him at #9. He's a little light in the loafers. He may end up being very good, but right now I think the veteran Olinemen will put hands on him and own him physically.

He may do alright but it's probably gonna be a serious adjustment for him. In other words, he's another project at the NFL level. His college stats are great, but now he needs to add weight, without losing burst; which makes him a project.

I don't think he's as sure of a player at #9 as Fournette,Foster, or Howard.

Yeah Coach, i agree, was all for Barnett at 9 before. But he might take awhile to get his strength up and might not
be an immediate gamechanger for us. Should get that out of a top 10 pick. His stats kind of inflated his stock a bit
and were produced against lesser O-lineman.

(04-07-2017, 03:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: BTW, Derek Barnett is falling down my board the more i look at these Ends.

Really liking some of the guys being talked about in the 2nd like Jordan Willis, Takk McKinley, Carl Lawson, Derek Rivers etc.

From: CincyJungle:
How about this guy in 4th???
The one Baylor Bear who Cincinnati should really be interested in is center Kyle Fuller. A full-time starter for the past three years, Fuller earned all-conference honors in each of the past three seasons. He was an honorable mention in 2014, a second-teamer in 2015, and finally got first-team honors this past season.
 
At 6’5” and 307 pounds, Fuller is on the larger side for a center, even in the NFL, so he may have a future at guard if center doesn’t work out. The Bengals certainly need depth at both spots, not to mention an upgrade at center, so perhaps Fuller is someone they’ll consider. He’s currently projected as a Round 4 prospect, and the Bengals have two picks in that round.

Yes, the Bengal's Board is really boring right now. Expect it to pick up soon though.

(04-08-2017, 02:45 PM)Derrick Wrote: From: CincyJungle:
How about this guy in 4th???
The one Baylor Bear who Cincinnati should really be interested in is center Kyle Fuller. A full-time starter for the past three years, Fuller earned all-conference honors in each of the past three seasons. He was an honorable mention in 2014, a second-teamer in 2015, and finally got first-team honors this past season.
 
At 6’5” and 307 pounds, Fuller is on the larger side for a center, even in the NFL, so he may have a future at guard if center doesn’t work out. The Bengals certainly need depth at both spots, not to mention an upgrade at center, so perhaps Fuller is someone they’ll consider. He’s currently projected as a Round 4 prospect, and the Bengals have two picks in that round.

Yes, the Bengal's Board is really boring right now. Expect it to pick up soon though.

Nice, lots of good Center prospects in this draft in the mid rounds. Would love to get Fuller in the 4th.

6'5" is tall but Pocic is 6'7" and is a top prospect. Should have long arms being that tall.

Also just got updated on the Wyoming prospect Roullier who is another good one. But he has shorter arms.

(04-07-2017, 04:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He is not very physical, not the best at stopping the run, is on the smaller side and did most his damage against lesser competition.

(04-08-2017, 02:05 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: His stats kind of inflated his stock a bit and were produced against lesser O-lineman.

I think you have Barnett confused with Myles Garrett.

this stat is from last October

In 18 SEC games, Barnett has 21 sacks and 32.5 tackles for loss.
In 18 SEC games, Garrett has 11 sacks and 17 tackles for loss.


The one thing Barnett has done best is produce against ther very best.  Here is more



In four consecutive games against nationally ranked teams - Florida, Georgia, Texas A&M and Alabama - Barnett has totaled 19 tackles, 6 sacks, 8.5 tackles for loss, 2 forced fumbles, an interception and a broken-up pass. Moreover, part of that production came against two of the league's better tackles, Robinson and Texas A&M's Avery Gennesy.

(04-09-2017, 08:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I think you have Barnett confused with Myles Garrett.

this stat is from last October

In 18 SEC games, Barnett has 21 sacks and 32.5 tackles for loss.
In 18 SEC games, Garrett has 11 sacks and 17 tackles for loss.


The one thing Barnett has done best is produce against ther very best.  Here is more



In four consecutive games against nationally ranked teams - Florida, Georgia, Texas A&M and Alabama - Barnett has totaled 19 tackles, 6 sacks, 8.5 tackles for loss, 2 forced fumbles, an interception and a broken-up pass. Moreover, part of that production came against two of the league's better tackles, Robinson and Texas A&M's Avery Gennesy.

You are right, i did have the two confused. Nice catch Fred.

I saw Barnett beat Cam Robinson a bunch in that one game.

Reps, thanks for setting me straight on Barnett.

(04-09-2017, 08:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I think you have Barnett confused with Myles Garrett.

this stat is from last October

In 18 SEC games, Barnett has 21 sacks and 32.5 tackles for loss.
In 18 SEC games, Garrett has 11 sacks and 17 tackles for loss.


The one thing Barnett has done best is produce against ther very best.  Here is more



In four consecutive games against nationally ranked teams - Florida, Georgia, Texas A&M and Alabama - Barnett has totaled 19 tackles, 6 sacks, 8.5 tackles for loss, 2 forced fumbles, an interception and a broken-up pass. Moreover, part of that production came against two of the league's better tackles, Robinson and Texas A&M's Avery Gennesy.

(04-09-2017, 03:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You are right, i did have the two confused. Nice catch Fred.

I saw Barnett beat Cam Robinson a bunch in that one game.

Reps, thanks for setting me straight on Barnett.

Let's not get carried away. I was gonna rebuttal Fred earlier, but chose no to do it. That said, now I will.


Here's the deal Fred, while the stats speak for themselves, they are skewed and here's why.

First and foremost, this is a terrible year for Tackles. More than one of the supposed 2016 collegiate top T's are projected to be Guards at the NFL level. Barnett's D gave up 31,45,49,&24 points in games played in October. Tennessee lost three of those four games.

Florida's T is expected to go anywhere from the 3rd-7th Rd. He's the second best T that he faced in the SEC last season.

Georgia's admitted weakness in 2016 was their o-line. It's on their football page in bold letters.

Texas A&M is known for producing overhyped OT's, in fact we currently have one on the Bengals roster. They win awards in college and blow at the big boy level. Also see Luke Joeckel.

Bama, see Cam Robinson, stock falling as I type this.
Then there was SCarolina a mediocre team at best, Tenn lost.

To sum up there are only three OTs from the SEC that are even projected in the top 15 listed draft prospects. Only one is projected as a 1st rder and his stock is falling. The other two are predicted to go anywhere from the 3rd-7th rds.

Your Tennessee bias is shining brightly! And these numbers are misleading. Kudos to the kid for putting up such good numbers, but it may as well been you or I trying to block him in many of his games.

(04-09-2017, 06:11 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Let's not get carried away. I was gonna rebuttal Fred earlier, but chose no to do it. That said, now I will.


Here's the deal Fred, while the stats speak for themselves, they are skewed and here's why.

First and foremost, this is a terrible year for Tackles. More than one of the supposed 2016 collegiate top T's are projected to be Guards at the NFL level. Barnett's D gave up 31,45,49,&24 points in games played in October. Tennessee lost three of those four games.

Florida's T is expected to go anywhere from the 3rd-7th Rd. He's the second best T that he faced in the SEC last season.

Georgia's admitted weakness in 2016 was their o-line. It's on their football page in bold letters.

Texas A&M is known for producing overhyped OT's, in fact we currently have one on the Bengals roster. They win awards in college and blow at the big boy level. Also see Luke Joeckel.

Bama, see Cam Robinson, stock falling as I type this.
Then there was SCarolina a mediocre team at best, Tenn lost.

To sum up there are only three OTs from the SEC that are even projected in the top 15 listed draft prospects. Only one is projected as a 1st rder and his stock is falling. The other two are predicted to go anywhere from the 3rd-7th rds.

Your Tennessee bias is shining brightly! And these numbers are misleading. Kudos to the kid for putting up such good numbers, but it may as well been you or I trying to block him in many of his games.

I love gettin some perspective, thanks Coach. It is true that it is a lousy draft for OT's but i must say it is a great
draft for DE's. This might have something to do with it. Those numbers that Fred brought up are pretty telling though
about Garrett and Barnett.

(04-09-2017, 10:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I love gettin some perspective, thanks Coach. It is true that it is a lousy draft for OT's but i must say it is a great
draft for DE's. This might have something to do with it. Those numbers that Fred brought up are pretty telling though
about Garrett and Barnett.

I think most of us agree that Barnett has a great nose for the ball. He may very well be a stud. TS, at #9 he carries serious concern.

Fournette carries risk, but the upside is just too overwhelming to pass up. They should race to the podium if he's still there.

If he's gone (Panthers & Jets) then the next three players that are close to sure things imo are Adams,Foster, & Howard.
Robinson could be there, but at #9 I'm not so sure he's worthy of that pick.

As was mentioned by a friend earlier, Howard is really intriguing with the continued TE situation. Lack of toughness being a severe problem with that group in particular. 

I like Barnett, but he worries me at #9 for reasons I previously mentioned. I like the depth of this draft at pass rusher/ DE, so I think we can still get a very good one in the 2nd or wait & double up on a couple good one's in the 3rd/4th.