(04-12-2017, 11:31 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I agree with this, but we also don't know what has or has not been offered for him. I also think it is grossly unfair to compare 2015 Dalton to the five games McCarron played in 2015.  That was Dalton's fifth year as the starter, his fifth year getting all the first team reps.  I hear people say "McCarron held onto the ball too long", "he didn't go through his progression as fast as Dalton"... obviously, because it was Dalton's fifth year as the starter.  If he would have come into his first real game action as a pro and either matched or out performed our fifth year starter that would be a real problem and an indictment of Andy.

Personally, I think McCarron is going to be what Andy Dalton is... an above average NFL starting quarterback.  Is he going to be a perennial All Pro, future Hall of Fame, record setting quarterback?  No, but neither is Andy Dalton.  I also think the Browns could be a good situation for a guy like McCarron, but according to reports over the last 24 hours they seem to be falling in love with Trubisky so we may never know.

Context buddy...context. I wasn't comparing the long term prospects of the two. I was simply pointing out that the team fell off when Dalton went down. So why worry about keeping around a good backup when there is still a pretty massive drop off? That's all I was saying there. Maybe McCarron will get better as a starter, but he won't be a starter here. So he won't see that improvement in stripes.

Now to speak of McCarron's long term prospects, we just have to disagree. I'd be stunned if he developed to be as good as Dalton. Right now, Dalton is miles ahead of McCarron, and Mac is 27 years old. McCarron does not possess Dalton's physical tools (athleticism and arm) and Dalton is even further ahead mentally. People really underestimate Dalton's pre-snap ability. He puts us into better plays a lot more than some seem to realize. He's been a master of his offense from day 1, when Jay Gruden said Andy was correcting him on plays...as a rookie.

That's not even mentioning Dalton's quick release (mostly due to reading defenses pre-snap) which is a stark contrast to McC. Dalton came in with that ability. Or how much Dalton improved in the pocket. No guarantee McCarron can improve as much. Even if McCarron catches up to Dalton in some of these areas (which is not likely), there's other areas where he just can't catch up because he wasn't blessed with those abilities.

(04-12-2017, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Context buddy...context. I wasn't comparing the long term prospects of the two. I was simply pointing out that the team fell off when Dalton went down. So why worry about keeping around a good backup when there is still a pretty massive drop off? That's all I was saying there. Maybe McCarron will get better as a starter, but he won't be a starter here. So he won't see that improvement in stripes.

Now to speak of McCarron's long term prospects, we just have to disagree. I'd be stunned if he developed to be as good as Dalton. Right now, Dalton is miles ahead of McCarron, and Mac is 27 years old. McCarron does not possess Dalton's physical tools (athleticism and arm) and Dalton is even further ahead mentally. People really underestimate Dalton's pre-snap ability. He puts us into better plays a lot more than some seem to realize. He's been a master of his offense from day 1, when Jay Gruden said Andy was correcting him on plays...as a rookie.

That's not even mentioning Dalton's quick release (mostly due to reading defenses pre-snap) which is a stark contrast to McC. Dalton came in with that ability. Or how much Dalton improved in the pocket. No guarantee McCarron can improve as much. Even if McCarron catches up to Dalton in some of these areas (which is not likely), there's other areas where he just can't catch up because he wasn't blessed with those abilities.

Agreed...and to extrapolate that out...Dalton is somewhere in the 12-15 range of NFL QB's. That would put AJ in the bottom half of starting QB's int he NFL.

Teams don't want to pay 1st Round picks for that. The Browns are looking at Trubisky #1 overall.

(04-12-2017, 12:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Somewhat. Admittedly, I used to complain about guys like Gradkowski, Josh Johnson and Jordan Palmer. We can do better than that even if we trade McCarron. 

2. McCarron is a top notch backup, but would be a bottom rung starter. Someone a team would move on from pretty quickly once they saw what they had. I'd place his max value as a 2nd rounder. Maybe even a 3rd or later. If I'm being honest, it's really hard to tell.

3. Depends. If it's a 2nd or 3rd, I'd pull the trigger. The more talent we can get at other positions, the better. This team needs help. Dalton isn't likely to get hurt, certainly isn't likely to get hurt for a long period of time, and there are backups we can get on the open market that could be just as good (but with less long term potential...which we don't need). Available right now are...

Ryan Fitzpatrick
RGIII
Shaun Hill (37 years old, but should have plenty left)
Blaine Gabbert (improved a great deal in SF)
Dan Orlovsky 
Christian Ponder
Thad Lewis
Ryan Nassib
Austin Davis (probably the guy I'd want, he had a great run in St Louis)

Some might laugh at some of these names, but just because a guy flamed out as a full-time starter doesn't mean he'd make a bad backup. I really like Gabbert or Austin Davis.

Fitzpatrick coming full circle and being a back up for Bengals again would not suck. 

Not sure if he would or not but to me his experience would be an upgrade immediately as our back up. 

Then throw in we could get (like you think) a 2nd or 3rd round pick. 

It would be a no brainer I would think. 

(04-12-2017, 01:24 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Fitzpatrick coming full circle and being a back up for Bengals again would not suck. 

Not sure if he would or not but to me his experience would be an upgrade immediately as our back up. 

Then throw in we could get (like you think) a 2nd or 3rd round pick. 

It would be a no brainer I would think. 

Agreed. Fitzpatrick would be my 3rd choice, and would definitely make for a fine backup.

Fitz + draft pick or McCarron? Like you said, it's a no brainer.

(04-10-2017, 12:07 PM)Benton Wrote: Boyd started 2 games (granted, he played much more). WJ III didn't do as well.
Fisher 1 (granted, he played more). Oogie, didn't do as well.
Hill, pretty good rookie year. Dennard, played some, don't think he started any.

So, hell, you might be right. As long as it's not a first round player, looks like the guy has a chance to come in and contribute. Seems we do better lately with our seconds than our firsts, at least earlier on.

That said, I still wouldn't trade AJM. I remember living in constant fear of hearing "And coming into the game is Jordan Palmer."

There are some saying the season is over (or the game) if Andy goes down. That's not true if you have a competent backup. People can debate if he's a starter or a scrub or whatever, but we know AJM is a competent backup. As long as he's on the roster, the season isn't over, regardless of what happens to AD. I don't want to spend this season fearing the words "And coming into the game is... who the $#!% is Jeff Driskell?"

I guess i can somewhat understand this, sure is a lot better when we have that insurance at backup.

But still, if we can get an impact player that will start soon enough, i jump at that chance rather than
just letting him leave next year for nada. I like the fire in AJM but he holds onto the ball a long time.

(04-10-2017, 01:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think Nate meant more that it seems typically (at least in the Dalton era) that 2nd round picks are getting (many) more snaps out of the gate compared to their 1st round counterparts.

It seems as if the 1st round is BPA selection for the future whereas the 2nd round is more about immediate help.

That's part of the reason I think 1st round is a pass catcher and 2nd round is a DE. The other part is I believe a pass catcher will simply be BPA over a DE at 9 unless Thomas falls.

Yep, that is what i meant, way to clear it up Ocho.

(04-10-2017, 02:57 PM)BigSeph Wrote: 1.  No relation.

2.  The defense played great for 3.5 quarters.  I'm not here to take anything away from the defense in that game.

3.  Of course you have no doubt that Andy would have won that game, because you're just as much of an Andy homer as I am an AJM homer.  Andy's playoff history would suggest that he would have choked badly.

4.  He drove the offense right down the field into the red zone after getting a lucky 15-yard penalty and Hill getting 12 rushing yards (this is how AJM bashers talk about AJM's performances)

1. You are clearly biased for AJM, clearly.

2. Sure sounds like you put more of that possible Playoff win on AJM's shoulders than the Defense.

3. I am no where near as much of an Andy homer as you are an AJM homer. I know and list Andy's weaknesses.
But his weakness is not holding onto the ball too long like AJM's is. AJM will have to have a very good O-line to
succeed in the NFL.

I do like McCarron's fire, i will give him that and i liked how he improved on not turning the ball over as he played
more and more. I just want us to get something for him if he is just going to leave next year for nothing.

BTW, i will gladly eat crow if he goes to some team and plays lights out. He will need a good O-line though.

(04-12-2017, 02:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I guess i can somewhat understand this, sure is a lot better when we have that insurance at backup.

But still, if we can get an impact player that will start soon enough, i jump at that chance rather than
just letting him leave next year for nada. I like the fire in AJM but he holds onto the ball a long time.


Yep, that is what i meant, way to clear it up Ocho.


1. You are clearly biased for AJM, clearly.

2. Sure sounds like you put more of that possible Playoff win on AJM's shoulders than the Defense.

3. I am no where near as much of an Andy homer as you are an AJM homer. I know and list Andy's weaknesses.
But his weakness is not holding onto the ball too long like AJM's is. AJM will have to have a very good O-line to
succeed in the NFL.

I do like McCarron's fire, i will give him that and i liked how he improved on not turning the ball over as he played
more and more. I just want us to get something for him if he is just going to leave next year for nothing.

BTW, i will gladly eat crow if he goes to some team and plays lights out. He will need a good O-line though.

Welp.....he ain't gettin' that here.

(04-12-2017, 12:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly. The guy has natural leadership qualities, solid accuracy and the game isn't too big for him. He doesn't look overwhelmed at all when he's in there, and that's all you can ask for in a backup. I'm 50/50 on whether he'll eventually get a shot somewhere, whether it's via trade or as a FA. Maybe he will...or maybe we're all (some of us especially so) overrating him. Jim O has suggested as much.

If he does get traded, I don't think he'll garner more than a 2nd round pick - if that - and as a starter, I don't think he'll have long term success. His arm would be among the worst in the NFL (among starters). He struggled with zone and disguised blitzes. He hangs on to the ball a lot. He's pretty oblivious in the pocket. Maybe these things get better, maybe not. It took Dalton 5 seasons to reach his full potential. McCarron is 27 in September.

To sum up my stance on Mac, I understand some optimism. He had a great college career where he was a well-known star and he exceeded expectations somewhat when Dalton went down. I get all that, but when you have guys claiming "star in the making", or "next Tom Brady", and saying we should get a 1st round pick for him, I feel a need to check these guys. 

Likewise when ignorant posters claim he has a terrible arm, can't beat zone defense, got sacked too much, has no pocket presence, etc I point out Brady's rate stats vs McCarron's rate stats in their first NFL season of playing time and shut those absurd criticisms down.

Players can improve, and it often takes first team reps and game experience.

I'm not putting a cap on McCarron because I'm in love with Andy Dalton.  Both QBs are at least average NFL QBs as-is right now, AJM has the potential to improve and become what Andy is - an above average NFL QB.  And maybe more.

With less choking in big moments.

(04-12-2017, 02:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I guess i can somewhat understand this, sure is a lot better when we have that insurance at backup.

But still, if we can get an impact player that will start soon enough, i jump at that chance rather than
just letting him leave next year for nada. I like the fire in AJM but he holds onto the ball a long time.


Yep, that is what i meant, way to clear it up Ocho.


1. You are clearly biased for AJM, clearly.

2. Sure sounds like you put more of that possible Playoff win on AJM's shoulders than the Defense.

3. I am no where near as much of an Andy homer as you are an AJM homer. I know and list Andy's weaknesses.
But his weakness is not holding onto the ball too long like AJM's is. AJM will have to have a very good O-line to
succeed in the NFL.

I do like McCarron's fire, i will give him that and i liked how he improved on not turning the ball over as he played
more and more. I just want us to get something for him if he is just going to leave next year for nothing.

BTW, i will gladly eat crow if he goes to some team and plays lights out. He will need a good O-line though.

How did Andy do last year when the O-line's play fell off?

There's not a QB in the NFL that is going to put up amazing stats when he has < 2 seconds to throw. You can't even see if a safety's going to bite on an underneath route or stay deep on a post route.

Of course I'm an AJM homer, that's why the irrational criticisms from so many "fans" of this team bother me.  None of it makes any sense, and none of it is rooted in reality.

It's just Andy homerism disguised as AJM-bashing.

(04-12-2017, 03:00 PM)BigSeph Wrote: Likewise when ignorant posters claim he has a terrible arm, can't beat zone defense, got sacked too much, has no pocket presence, etc I point out Brady's rate stats vs McCarron's rate stats in their first NFL season of playing time and shut those absurd criticisms down.

Players can improve, and it often takes first team reps and game experience.

I'm not putting a cap on McCarron because I'm in love with Andy Dalton.  Both QBs are at least average NFL QBs as-is right now, AJM has the potential to improve and become what Andy is - an above average NFL QB.  And maybe more.

With less choking in big moments.

So what's your take on what happened in the second half of the Denver game?  Not trying to be a smart ass, I really am interested in your take.

(04-12-2017, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Context buddy...context. I wasn't comparing the long term prospects of the two. I was simply pointing out that the team fell off when Dalton went down. So why worry about keeping around a good backup when there is still a pretty massive drop off? That's all I was saying there. Maybe McCarron will get better as a starter, but he won't be a starter here. So he won't see that improvement in stripes.

Now to speak of McCarron's long term prospects, we just have to disagree. I'd be stunned if he developed to be as good as Dalton. Right now, Dalton is miles ahead of McCarron, and Mac is 27 years old. McCarron does not possess Dalton's physical tools (athleticism and arm) and Dalton is even further ahead mentally. People really underestimate Dalton's pre-snap ability. He puts us into better plays a lot more than some seem to realize. He's been a master of his offense from day 1, when Jay Gruden said Andy was correcting him on plays...as a rookie.

That's not even mentioning Dalton's quick release (mostly due to reading defenses pre-snap) which is a stark contrast to McC. Dalton came in with that ability. Or how much Dalton improved in the pocket. No guarantee McCarron can improve as much. Even if McCarron catches up to Dalton in some of these areas (which is not likely), there's other areas where he just can't catch up because he wasn't blessed with those abilities.

I was not referring specifically to you, and apologize if it seemed that way.  I've seen people go to some extremes in trying to argue Dalton over McCarron (that somehow Dalton had more college success, his wife is better looking, just random stuff). I agree that keeping McCarron makes no sense.  This team is a lot further away from the Super Bowl than a backup quarterback who can keep them competitive if Dalton goes down.  I would trade him for a second round pick, get a player who can contribute and give McCarron a chance somewhere else.

We will have to disagree about the long term prospects.  No doubt, Andy is the more mobile of the two.  I'm curious to see where McCarron's arm is after a couple years working with House though.  When Andy got here he was not known for having a very strong arm, but it has gotten better with House.  I actually think McCarron is more competitive than Andy.  I know you will disagree, but I would like to see Andy get mad.  I would like to see him get in someone's face on the sidelines, show some real passion (I've read quite a couple articles that say this is just not his personality).

If the Bengals truly value McCarron as high as they say they do, I have to imagine it's because they believe they can repeat the 2015 regular season.

In 2015, while nearly everyone predicted the Bengals would do well, they never imagined the Bengals would start 8-0 and end up 10-2 by the first Steelers game.
They were practically guaranteed a playoff berth and working toward a first-round bye when Dalton went down with his thumb injury.
If the Bengals had a worse QB than McCarron when Dalton went down, they might not have ended up 12-4 and might not have been as close as they were to winning their first playoff game in a quarter of a century.

So the only scenario I can see is that the Bengals FO feels they can get back to that same success level this year and therefore have a much bigger value on a good backup QB that can help them possibly in the playoffs if an injury to Dalton were to occur.

I personally don't believe they have as good of a team as they had in 2015, so I think the Bengals are overvaluing McCarron, as he won't be a difference maker when it comes to winning a playoff game.

The day will come when I won't hear the name "AJ McCarron" ever again... That day can't come soon enough.

(04-12-2017, 03:48 PM)jason Wrote: The day will come when I won't hear the name "AJ McCarron" ever again... That day can't come soon enough.

Until the day we play him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(04-12-2017, 03:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: So what's your take on what happened in the second half of the Denver game?  Not trying to be a smart ass, I really am interested in your take.

Claiming that McCarron can't play against a zone defense because he struggled against the '15 Bronco's defense is like saying a basball player can't hit a fastball because he struggled against Aroldis Chapman. 

When you look at the passer ratings of other games against that defense that year (Flacco 38.2, Alex Smith 53.9, Rivers 57.1, Rodgers 69.7) the question should not be what happened in the second half to AJ McCarron, but instead how did he do that in the first half?

You think Phillip Rivers does not know how to read a zone dfense?

(04-12-2017, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Claiming that McCarron can't play against a zone defense because he struggled against the '15 Bronco's defense is like saying a basball player can't hit a fastball because he struggled against Aroldis Chapman. 

When you look at the passer ratings of other games against that defense that year (Flacco 38.2, Alex Smith 53.9, Rivers 57.1, Rodgers 69.7) the question should not be what happened in the second half to AJ McCarron, but instead how did he do that in the first half?

You think Phillip Rivers does not know how to read a zone dfense?

That defense did win them a Super Bowl.

(04-12-2017, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Claiming that McCarron can't play against a zone defense because he struggled against the '15 Bronco's defense is like saying a basball player can't hit a fastball because he struggled against Aroldis Chapman. 

When you look at the passer ratings of other games against that defense that year (Flacco 38.2, Alex Smith 53.9, Rivers 57.1, Rodgers 69.7) the question should not be what happened in the second half to AJ McCarron, but instead how did he do that in the first half?

You think Phillip Rivers does not know how to read a zone dfense?

So, what's your take on the first half?  Something changed, and from what I watched, Phillips changed up the coverage. Am I wrong? I know AJ can play in this league, but something caused him and the passing game to be a non factor in the second half.

(04-12-2017, 04:25 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: That defense did win them a Super Bowl.

No question.  However, he straight up blistered their ass in the first half.  Something changed. I like the kid, and believe he is a gamer, but he struggled after an adjustment was made by the DC.

(04-12-2017, 04:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: No question.  However, he straight up blistered their ass in the first half.  Something changed.  I like the kid, and believe he is a gamer, but he struggled after an adjustment was made by the DC.

How many times do we all complain about a lack of halftime adjustments and the Bengals not keeping up in the second half?  Complete honesty, I don't remember the specifics of the game.  I remember it went to over time and there was the botched snap, but couldn't tell you more beyond that...

(04-12-2017, 03:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: So what's your take on what happened in the second half of the Denver game?  Not trying to be a smart ass, I really am interested in your take.

Second half AJM was 9-17 with 2 sacks, but multiple possessions where the Bengals didn't even attempt a pass.  Broncos switched to zone, but McCarron drove the team down the field with 4 minutes to go to tie the game back up.  Didn't have Eifert to eat up zone underneath, threw a lot of passes to Kroft and Hill and some incomplete deep shots.  Did have a nice completion to Sanu for 20 yards vs cover 3 on a 3rd and 16.

Defense gave up 390 yards in that game, most of them in the 2nd half.  Offense not possessing the ball contributed to the defense wearing down, but it's not like the Bengals didn't try to run the ball and chew up clock.

Bengals averaged 3.3 yards per carry, Broncos averaged 5.4.  Brock Osweiler passed for 299 yards against the super-awesome Bengals defense.

AJM was obviously confused by Wade Phillips switching to zone blitz and zone defenses in the second half, but the Broncos played man almost the entire year and AJM forced them to stop doing what made them the best defense in the NFL.  Hats off to a HOF defensive coordinator, he adjusted, AJM looked rattled in the second half.

And then AJM choked in overtime.

What's your take on Andy Dalton's playoff and primetime TV performances in his career? Has he ever had an 87.8 rating in those moments?

(04-12-2017, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Claiming that McCarron can't play against a zone defense because he struggled against the '15 Bronco's defense is like saying a basball player can't hit a fastball because he struggled against Aroldis Chapman. 

When you look at the passer ratings of other games against that defense that year (Flacco 38.2, Alex Smith 53.9, Rivers 57.1, Rodgers 69.7) the question should not be what happened in the second half to AJ McCarron, but instead how did he do that in the first half?

You think Phillip Rivers does not know how to read a zone dfense?

Fred bringing the context