(12-13-2017, 06:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Translation: "I got nothin"

Bye-bye.

I've got nothing.....too funny.

(12-13-2017, 06:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No idea why stating my position would get on your nerves. 

I fully understood the word you used and pointed to the guy you gave the physicality nod to, is currently in concussion protocol. Doesn't physicality mean the ability to endure physical contact?

Luckily my nerves are not "gotten on" as easily. If so someone suggesting a player has only missed games ONCE during his entire 11 game NFL career earns the physicality nod might just do it.

You stated i said "physically" twice in your post when clearly i said "physicality" in mine.

Just don't like people intentionally taking my words out of context. You know what i meant Bfine and you ran with it anyway.

Don't tell me that Gio would of slobberknockered Jabrill Peppers the way Mixon did, just stop.

You know what i mean, Gio has not endured physical contact lots of times so your argument for him is hypocritical there as well.

And i am not hating on Gio, you just are clearly hating on Mixon. I like both backs.

(12-13-2017, 06:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No idea why stating my position would get on your nerves. 

I fully understood the word you used and pointed to the guy you gave the physicality nod to, is currently in concussion protocol. Doesn't physicality mean the ability to endure physical contact?

Luckily my nerves are not "gotten on" as easily. If so someone suggesting a player has only missed games ONCE during his entire 11 game NFL career earns the physicality nod might just do it.

Maybe you didn't see the double head shot Mixon took on the bounty hit.  No man stands up to that.  We all get it.  You have some weird problem with Mixon. 

It's like Fred never left.

(12-13-2017, 07:35 PM)McC Wrote: Maybe you didn't see the double head shot Mixon took on the bounty hit.  No man stands up to that.  We all get it.  You have some weird problem with Mixon. 

It's like Fred never left.

I saw the hit; it was quite physical. I simply stated it was ironic that the nod of physicality was given to a player missing time due to injury in his rookie season.

Yes, my weird problem is/was he should have to earn the starting role. You might want to know I also have a weird problem with Vigil

From what I understand Fred did not leave, he was shown the door. 

(12-13-2017, 08:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I saw the hit; it was quite physical. I simply stated it was ironic that the nod of physicality was given to a player missing time due to injury in his rookie season.

Yes, my weird problem is/was he should have to earn the starting role. You might want to know I also have a weird problem with Vigil

From what I understand Fred did not leave, he was shown the door. 

Why should he be the only guy to have to earn it?

(12-13-2017, 08:08 PM)McC Wrote: Why should he be the only guy to have to earn it?

He shouldn't be; I think all should earn it. Especially at a position where we have talented veterans and the veterans are outperforming them.

Now throw Westerman out there for a game and see what he can do as Bodine's replacement and I have zero issue; as we have no talented veteran. Try that OT over Ced and I have no problem, because we have no proven veteran. Play Mixon over Gio and Jeremy from dy 1 and I have a problem. Saints did it the right way with Kamara.

(12-13-2017, 02:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If Mixon were averaging 3.0 YPC while Gio was averaging 4.5, I'd understand you guys. That hasn't been the case. They were both playing like crap before (lets be real - 3.5 YPC still sucks) and they're both playing great now. Now we're just splitting hairs (talking about a 0.6 YPC difference with players who were playing really bad - now great) to play favorite. 

I think it's all about the line. I don't care who gets the "starts", whoever is running is going to succeed with the line playing as it has. 

I will say this: Your expectations of Gio are on the high side. 

McCoy is a 10,000 yard back with a career 4.7 YPC. A 1600 yard season under his belt. Basically five 1300 yard seasons. A HOF caliber runner (and TBH every bit the receiver Gio is, and maybe more). Gio has never rushed for more than 730 yards and has a career 4.2 YPC. He was handed the starting role in 2014 and disappointed. Check the game logs:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BernGi00/gamelog/2014/

9 starts
6 starts with 3.43 YPC or less
6 starts with 48 yards or less
Got injured

That seem McCoy-like to you?

As a receiver, sure Gio has been Sproles-like...but Sproles brings so much more to the table that it's kinda unfair to make that name drop to boost Gio. Sproles has 62 TDs in the last 10 years, despite limited touches. Gio brings nothing as a returner, and has only 22 TDs in 5 years, despite getting more handoffs than Sproles has ever had. Heck, Gio only has 7 TDs in his last 3 years. 

I get the sudden resurgence of Gio love after he just had a couple good games in a row (which has been rare for him), but maybe we should pump the breaks on handing him the lion's share of carries, burying Mixon on the bench, and comparing Gio to HOF caliber players.  

It doesn't matter if they both suck, or if they're both good. A difference of 0.6 YPC is still a difference, and a not insignificant one. That's the difference between LeSean McCoy and Lamar Miller this year. It's the difference between DeMarco Murray and Doug Martin this year.

If two guys are running in the same offense, behind the same OL, and one is getting .6 more yards per carry, he is likely better.

0.6 is a bigger difference than '10 Patriots RB BJGE and '12 Bengals RB BJGE.

- - - - - - - - - - -

My expectations for Gio were a *lesser* McCoy, and it was also a statement based upon the qualification that he was playing for someone like Sean Payton, who understands the value of OL and is a creative offensive mind who knows how to properly utilize pass catching RBs. Not playing for Paul Alexander, Ken Zampese, Ogbuehi, Bodine, etc.

The Bengals' favorite plays for a RB are...
1. Run off right tackle on first down.
2. Do that long wide sweeping running play to the outside that never works, but we try at least 5 times a game.
3. An obvious screen pass that sets the RB up for getting blasted the second the ball touches his hands.

- - - - - - - - - -

Gio is an inferior runner to McCoy (hence again why I said lesser) but he's a superior pass catcher. There's no way McCoy is superior. Gio averages 1.7 more yards per reception than McCoy.

- - - - - - - - -

TDs? Really Shake? You're going the TDs-route of why a player is better? That's like the people who said Jeremy Hill was a great RB because he had so many TDs.

Gio had Hill, who was the ultimate running TD goalline vulture, and Eifert (when healthy) who was the ultimate receiving TD vulture. Plus Green who catches 7-11 TDs/yr.

Blount went from 18 rushing TDs last year, to 2 this year.
Calvin Johnson had 5 TDs the year he almost caught 2k yards.
It's not a good measure of if a player is good or not, and you and I both know that.

(12-13-2017, 08:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 1. It doesn't matter if they both suck, or if they're both good. A difference of 0.6 YPC is still a difference, and a not insignificant one. That's the difference between LeSean McCoy and Lamar Miller this year. It's the difference between DeMarco Murray and Doug Martin this year.

If two guys are running in the same offense, behind the same OL, and one is getting .6 more yards per carry, he is likely better.

0.6 is a bigger difference than '10 Patriots RB BJGE and '12 Bengals RB BJGE.

- - - - - - - - - - -

2. My expectations for Gio were a *lesser* McCoy, and it was also a statement based upon the qualification that he was playing for someone like Sean Payton, who understands the value of OL and is a creative offensive mind who knows how to properly utilize pass catching RBs. Not playing for Paul Alexander, Ken Zampese, Ogbuehi, Bodine, etc.

The Bengals' favorite plays for a RB are...
1. Run off right tackle on first down.
2. Do that long wide sweeping running play to the outside that never works, but we try at least 5 times a game.
3. An obvious screen pass that sets the RB up for getting blasted the second the ball touches his hands.

- - - - - - - - - -

3. Gio is an inferior runner to McCoy (hence again why I said lesser) but he's a superior pass catcher. There's no way McCoy is superior. Gio averages 1.7 more yards per reception than McCoy.

- - - - - - - - -

4. TDs? Really Shake? You're going the TDs-route of why a player is better? That's like the people who said Jeremy Hill was a great RB because he had so many TDs.

5. Gio had Hill, who was the ultimate running TD goalline vulture, and Eifert (when healthy) who was the ultimate receiving TD vulture. Plus Green who catches 7-11 TDs/yr.

6. Blount went from 18 rushing TDs last year, to 2 this year.
Calvin Johnson had 5 TDs the year he almost caught 2k yards.
It's not a good measure of if a player is good or not, and you and I both know that.

1. Maybe a comparison will help you understand what I'm saying. Alvin Kamara is averaging a whopping 7.0 YPC this year. Has that stopped the Saints from starting Mark Ingram (5.1 YPC) and giving him the bulk of carries? Nope. Because Mark Ingram is also balling out, and he's their "bell-cow" while Kamara has a different role. If a 0.6 YPC difference is substantial, I can't imagine what you think of 1.9. 

Basically, if both players on the same team are playing extremely well (to varying degrees), you do not swap roles and throw a square peg in a round hole just because the backup has a slightly higher YPC. They're both effective, so if it ain't broke...

2. Man, anyone is going to look better playing for an offensive genius like Payton or Belichick. That'd go for Mixon as well. I still don't think Gio will ever be a 300 carry guy ala McCoy. Let alone a very successful one. There's been literally no evidence to suggest such a thing in 5 years. So we'll just have to disagree on that one. 

3. Gio is barely better as a receiver and far inferior as a runner. He can't handle the workload McCoy can, let alone as effectively.

4. Yes, really. I don't think you're understanding. Sproles isn't some goal-line back. He's not squaring up for chip shots at the 1 yard line at 181 lbs. He gets most of his TD's because he's an electric, explosive player. Gio just hasn't been that guy for us. We've discussed this enough in the past that you should be familiar with Gio's lack of big plays without me having to look it up again. 

Sproles is probably a future HOF'er. He's 8th all-time in all-purpose yardage:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/all_purpose_yds_career.htm

And we're comparing him to Gio? C'mon man. Go ask any non-Bengals fan that question. Gio or Sproles.

5. Gio didn't get goal-line touches because he's never been a better goal-line back than the other guys we've had rostered. And again, do you think Sproles was a goal-line back? Very rarely. He got a lot of TDs by just making plays.

6. See #4. 

(12-11-2017, 10:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: .......as our feature back when he returns?

Early in the season folks were mad that Mixon wasn't getting enough carries; heck, I think Mixon even complained about it publicly.

In Benard's 2 complete games as feature back Gio has 24 carries for 139 yards (5.8 YPC)

In Mixon's 11 complete games as our feature back Joe has 150 carries for 484 yards (3.2 YPC)

So what think we going forward?

Gio is one of my favourites and I'm resigned to the fact that I'll probably spend most of his Bengals career kind of wishing he was getting more snaps  - in fact the only extended period when I was not thinking that was the 2nd half of Hill's rookie year when he was running phenomenally. 

For everyone saying he's small , that's fine but he plays tough as hell and I don't think he got enough credit for coming back from the major injury in the off season and being ready day 1.

Mixon has talent and with his great catching he was always going to be eat into Gio's snaps more than Hill.....but he's coming off a concussion and the comments he made early in the season annoyed me (yes I am bitter and hold a grudge..) so I'd be happy to see Gio get the majority of the snaps next game and see how it goes.

Either way , next year our OC (whoever that will be) has two talented backs to play with.

Well Joe got his starting job back.

Anyone want to change their vote?

(12-24-2017, 06:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well Joe got his starting job back.

Anyone want to change their vote?

Nope, I still think Mixon has more potential as long term answer. Will that play out ?  However as I said in the game day thread I've never believed the Gio must be treated like a piece of glass line.

Gio is a great back and should be used, a lot. Now should he have 20 carries between the tackles a game ? probably not

(12-24-2017, 06:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well Joe got his starting job back.

Anyone want to change their vote?

I suppose we all have the ability to change our minds.

Bfine on 11/6/17:

(11-06-2017, 02:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My feelings about Mixon have been made known. Most are fawning over him with absolutely no justification. Hill has a poor run, Hill sucks, Mixon has a poor run, oline sucks. According to PFF Mixon broke a total of 0 tackles yesterday. Jeremy Hill has earned his position as our feature back and should remain so until Mixon earns it. Mixon is currently averaging 2.9 YPC and of rushers that puts him dead last in rushers that have minimum of 75 carries. he is a weapon in the passing game, but currently has no business getting the ball behind the LOS.

(12-12-2017, 12:37 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Its not an either or both should get their share of touches.

ABSOLUTELY! This is not zero sum. Play them both. Sadly dozens of "3 and out" don't give RBs much opportunity. Fix the O line. I mean REALLY FIX it and then go GIo-Joe on the opposing defenses.

(12-24-2017, 06:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I suppose we all have the ability to change our minds.

Bfine on 11/6/17:

Yeah, too bad Jeremy got hurt. We may have stuck with him as the starter and actually won a few more games. All along I said Joe had no business being the bellcow until he earned it. 

Always being right is a curse I've learned to live with. 

(12-24-2017, 07:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yeah, too bad Jeremy got hurt. We may have stuck with him as the starter and actually won a few more games. All along I said Joe had no business being the bellcow until he earned it. 

Always being right is a curse I've learned to live with. 

Lol

Haven't really seen much in Mixon this season even though he has played most of the snaps. RB. Gio has been much better runner and can pass block very well too. I feel like everybody saying he can't handle the workload/isn't good at goal-line, just doesn't realize that the Bengals don't give Bernard the opportunity that he deserves. If he was given the opportunity, you would notice him more..

All you have to do is look back to his first year before Hill came in.

(12-24-2017, 07:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yeah, too bad Jeremy got hurt. We may have stuck with him as the starter and actually won a few more games. All along I said Joe had no business being the bellcow until he earned it. 

Always being right is a curse I've learned to live with. 

The last significant playing time before today Mixion had what 34 yards on 7 carries and the game before that he had a 114 yards on 23 carries to a good rushing Defense. I don't think Gio success should affect Mixon in a negative way and the opposite for Gio is true as well. We have two complete special backs use them both.

I think that if the Oline were really fixed, both run and pass blocking all 3 backs could stand out, but since it ain't they don't. Can anyone imagine having 3 backs who could all run for 1000 yards a piece? Heck, we wouldn't need a QB with an arm worth a hoot, but instead we keep thinking we have to have a QB who can throw for 4000 yards every year and backs who can run for over 1000 yards.. I think we'd win a heck of a lot more games with solid D and an Oline that can open up holes regularly and a QB who is just ok.. But whaddo I know?  

Gruden said all off season what kind of RB he would bring in and then went and drafted Gio.

Gruden went to Redskins and spotted Cousins was better than RGIII and mentored him into a solid NFL QB.

Think the there is a closet Louisville Cardinal fan amongst us.. lol