(11-24-2018, 02:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay, so Mike is the worst oiwber in the league and marvin is a horrible coach.

Then who gets the credit for the winning record we have since marvin became head coach.

You can try to dismiss regular season success as meaningless, but the fact is it is very hard to win in the NFL.  Half of the coaches are going to fail every week.  Even the best teams don't go undefeated.  And you can act like making the playoffs is easy, but since Marvin became our head coach only 8 teams have done it more often than us.

So if we have the worst owner and a horrible coach then someone somewhere is doing an elite job to produce a winning record.

Who is that?

There's no denying Marvin did good things in the past.  Problem is, they keep getting farther and farther in the rear view mirror.  He seems to have shot his load, as they say.

(11-24-2018, 04:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then.  We can't just pretend that 2015 did not happen and even in the other seasons they are ahead of around half the league.

If we have the worst owner and a horrible head coach then who gets credit for being better than all those other teams?  Soemone has to be producing at an elite level to iovercome the worst owner and a horrible head coach.

Have the coordinators and position coaches really been that good?

I think you're fooling yourself if you think Mike Brown is not one of the worst owners in the league.

As for Marvin, I don't think he's the worst coach in the league. I think he can bring a bad team/franchise to 7-9 to 10-6 seasons but he won't get any further because he hasn't adapted to the current NFL, makes poor in game decisions, and his teams are consistently shaken against teams like the Steelers and in the playoffs. Maybe with a better owner and organization he could but that's not happening. 

Just like at QB (Which we have but that's another talk), having an average coach is worse than having a bad coach. An average coach gets you to the playoffs, and gets some good seasons, but they won't get you further. But you consistently have that hope that they will be better or just need that one piece to really get to the top, and they don't. With a bad coach you at least know it, and it makes it easier to get rid of them to try for better. 

I would rather take the risk of getting a bad coach to get a great coach than stick with the nothing that the team inspires now

Why would Marvin leave a job where he wasn't held accountable and made millions of dollars?

Fans generally want Super Bowl wins. Not every owner apparently cares about that and not every coach does either.

Look at MLB Baseball. Over half the teams know they can't compete.

(11-24-2018, 04:38 PM)eoxyod Wrote: I think you're fooling yourself if you think Mike Brown is not one of the worst owners in the league.

That is exactly what I have been saying.

I think Marvin is much better than average because he has better than average results despite being handicapped by the worst owner in the league.

(11-24-2018, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes,  I agree that Mike Brown is the worst owner.

And I never said that our record under Marvin has been elite.  But our record under Marvin is better than most other teams, and that just would not be possible if every aspect of our team was horrible.  So to offset the worst owner and a horrible coach someone somewhere has to be doing something at close to an elite level for us to outperform most of the other etams in the league.

What has been elite about the bengals under browns stewardship? Save for some individual player seasons I would submit not much. And if you think the bengals are outperforming most of the other teams in the league you are delusional. You must think playoff appearances are the end all be all


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(11-24-2018, 06:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is exactly what I have been saying.

I think Marvin is much better than average because he has better than average results despite being handicapped by the worst owner in the league.

Yes.  That's what you've been saying.

Yet why hasn't Marvin left for greener pastures?

Shouldn't he be frustrated enough to push for something more somewhere else?

Taking that coaching talent to an organization that has a better owner/GM.

That's what the OP was asking.

(11-24-2018, 07:49 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote:  And if you think the bengals are outperforming most of the other teams in the league you are delusional. You must think playoff appearances are the end all be all

Okay, by "most" I mean a majority.

And I don't think playoff appearances are the end all be all.  I think that would be Championships, and since Marvin took over only 10 NFL teams have won more Championships than the Bengals.  Bengals are 14th in winning seasons, 13th in winning percentage, and 9th in playoff appearances.  There is plenty of evidence that the Bengals have performed better than a majority of the teams.

In fact the only way you can't is to claim that winning a playoff game is the end all be all.  That is because the Bengal victim card value depends on making a playoff win the one and only value used to determin how sucessful a team is.  It is the ONLY way the bengal fan victim card has more value than one from the browns.

The fact is it is absurd to claim that the Browns are the superior franchise just because they won one playoff game 20 years ago.  It is also absurd to claim that a franchise like the Rams have been superior to the Bengals just because they won one playoiff game 15 years ago.   The Rams have only had TWO winning seasons in the last 15 years and have averaged 6 wins per year.  It would be insane to trade one playoff win for 35 more regular season wins, over three times as many winning seasons (7 to 2) and over twice as many playoff appearances (7 to 3).

In fact, you know what will happen as soon as the bengals win a playoff game?  The victims will all claim that one playoff win is meaningless and that anyone happy with just one playoff win is "happy with mediocrity". but until that happens one single playoff win is the single most important factor in determinig which team is the best or worst in the league.

(11-24-2018, 08:29 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Yes.  That's what you've been saying.

Yet why hasn't Marvin left for greener pastures?

Shouldn't he be frustrated enough to push for something more somewhere else?

Taking that coaching talent to an organization that has a better owner/GM.

That's what the OP was asking.

Marvin was not stupid.  He knew exactly what he was signing up for when he agreed to be the Bengals' coach.  It would be disingenuous to leave and claim it was because he was not getting what he wanted from the front office when he knew exactly what to expect from the very beginning.

Besides, if he had left for greener pastures the haters would still rip on him.  They'd give him the Kevin Durant treatment for "Giving up on his players" and "Taking the easy way instead of working for it."

Making the playoffs is important and good, but in Marvin's time here we've been fortunate to make the playoffs every time we're had a winning season. We've never won 9+ games and missed out, and a lot of teams have won 9/10 games and missed it and twice a team won 11 games and missed the playoffs.

This year again if we get 9 wins we have a good chance of getting the 6th seed.

So, Marvin isn't bad but the guy has had some good players, two good QBs in Palmer and Dalton who played most of the seasons they were here, borderline HOF WRs like Chad and Green and he's made the playoffs any time he had a winning season. Yeah, he's a good HC in a way, but we all know the bar here is low.

(11-24-2018, 08:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay, by "most" I mean a majority.

And I don't think playoff appearances are the end all be all.  I think that would be Championships, and since Marvin took over only 10 NFL teams have won more Championships than the Bengals.  Bengals are 14th in winning seasons, 13th in winning percentage, and 9th in playoff appearances.  There is plenty of evidence that the Bengals have performed better than a majority of the teams.

In fact the only way you can't is to claim that winning a playoff game is the end all be all.  That is because the Bengal victim card value depends on making a playoff win the one and only value used to determin how sucessful a team is.  It is the ONLY way the bengal fan victim card has more value than one from the browns.

The fact is it is absurd to claim that the Browns are the superior franchise just because they won one playoff game 20 years ago.  It is also absurd to claim that a franchise like the Rams have been superior to the Bengals just because they won one playoiff game 15 years ago.   The Rams have only had TWO winning seasons in the last 15 years and have averaged 6 wins per year.  It would be insane to trade one playoff win for 35 more regular season wins, over three times as many winning seasons (7 to 2) and over twice as many playoff appearances (7 to 3).

In fact, you know what will happen as soon as the bengals win a playoff game?  The victims will all claim that one playoff win is meaningless and that anyone happy with just one playoff win is "happy with mediocrity". but until that happens one single playoff win is the single most important factor in determinig which team is the best or worst in the league.

That’s cute an all fred, but it doesn’t change jack squat. Only 10 teams have won a playoff game since Marvin was named coach? Wow. That means 22 teams, of which are one, haven’t done it. Of those 10 teams who have won probably several have won multiple playoff games.

You said championships are the end all be all. You can’t get those unless you reach the playoffs AND ADVANCE ONCE YOU GET THERE.

And I’m not playing a victim card and I didn’t claim the browns or any other team are superior because they have 1 playoff win in 20 years. I don’t really give a shit about other teams ineptitude. I get plenty of it here.

If you want to label the bengals a success based on the stats you posted that’s your prerogative. If you think Marvin is some kind of coaching savant because he has overcome the worst owner in the nfl and has a slightly above .500 winning percentage so be it.

I just wish the bengals would hold themselves to a higher standard


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It's swell the Bengals made the playoffs so many times, but every year there is a team that seems like they just make it only to be a speed bump for the real teams. It's cool that we've done it 7 times with Marvin, but in essence we are like the:

2017 Bills
2016 Dolphins/Lions
2015 Redskins/Texans/Bengals (ouch)
2014 Cardinals

all rolled into one. Huzzah. I could go on, but every year there seems to be one pseudo first round bye of a team that stumbles into the playoffs, and we've made a real streak of being that team. Negative Nately, I know. It would just be interesting to see a team like the Tyrod Taylor Bills go one and done 7 times in 9 years or whatever and send any sort of congratulations their way.

Truth be told, Merv's record against the Steelers, AKA, the most hated rival, is enough to have gotten his ass out of here. Double talk that one away, Fred.

Big bone to pick with him with me as well. His record against the stealers is a shame.

(11-25-2018, 03:04 AM)Nately120 Wrote: It's swell the Bengals made the playoffs so many times, but every year there is a team that seems like they just make it only to be a speed bump for the real teams.  It's cool that we've done it 7 times with Marvin, but in essence we are like the:

2017 Bills
2016 Dolphins/Lions
2015 Redskins/Texans/Bengals (ouch)
2014 Cardinals

all rolled into one.  Huzzah.  I could go on, but every year there seems to be one pseudo first round bye of a team that stumbles into the playoffs, and we've made a real streak of being that team.  Negative Nately, I know.  It would just be interesting to see a team like the Tyrod Taylor Bills go one and done 7 times in 9 years or whatever and send any sort of congratulations their way.

Probably 5 of ML's playoff appearance's we've backed in squeeking by way more than we've kicked butt getting there. And it's showed in very lackluster performances. 

(11-25-2018, 09:02 AM)McC Wrote: Truth be told, Merv's record against the Steelers, AKA, the most hated rival, is enough to have gotten his  ass out of here.   Double talk that one away, Fred.

Complete domination for 16 years and still has a job ?????

depthchart Wrote: [url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-If-GM-holding-Marvin-back-then-why-has-Marvin-never-left-to-a-better-Opportunity-GM?pid=636313#pid636313][/url]To those who blame Mike Brown at every turn for Marvin being "held back" by his GM that only hands Marvin so called "talent lacking" teams 

(04-30-2018, 02:59 PM) depthchart Wrote: Wrote:Given the recent O-line problems that have hamstrung the Bengals in recent years, I would lean in the direction of consistently keeping our foot on the gas pedal until the O-line is fixed. I had hoped the Front Office felt the same but they stopped short after good moves with Cordy and Billy.

Will they keep pushing for more, to be Elite on the O-line or do they stop short going forward ?

Not convinced this Front Office will. I see them settling with a middle of the pack O-line and being happy with it longer term. Essentially limiting how successful Pollack could be even if he is only a player or two away from Elite or Top 5 status say in 2019.

(11-23-2018, 09:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean guys like this?

You willfully miss the Point here, Fred.

When I showed my disappointment in the "Front Office" you take that as solely meaning Mike Brown.

When I say "Front Office" I include Marvin as being a Big Part of that "Front Office".

We saw how Mike Brown was as a GM in the 1990's.

Mike somehow became a better GM (via results) after Marvin came.

This is likely because Marvin has great INFLUENCE over the Roster decisions that are being made.

Not a total influence but a great enough influence to have Mike looking like a decent GM during those 7 Playoff appearances.

One can conclude that Marvin has more Roster shaping Power and influence than you pretend.

This team is in large part Marvin's baby since Marvin era teams look nothing like Mike's 1990's teams, especially during those 7 Playoff appearances. He has to be influencing GM Mike.

You may want to start blaming Marvin as much or more than Mike, if it is true that Marvin holds more Roster influence than you let on.

You would lose your "it's all Mike's fault" card.

By saying that Mike "holds back" Marvin by giving Marvin a roster that Marvin has no influence over, you then are assuming that Marvin entered every game that he lost with a LESSER game day Roster than the Head Coach that was opposing him did.  Not likely.

I'm sure Marvin entered games with BETTER game day Rosters than his opposing Head Coach had yet LOST.

So HOW are these types of losses Mike's fault ?

Does Mike wear a Head Set during games and mess up Marvin's brilliant Coaching during these games where Marvin has the better game day Roster than the other Head Coach opposing him ?

Could it possibly be Marvin's Coaching which is subpar in these cases, Fred ?

(11-26-2018, 12:53 PM)depthchart Wrote: depthchart Wrote: [url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-If-GM-holding-Marvin-back-then-why-has-Marvin-never-left-to-a-better-Opportunity-GM?pid=636313#pid636313][/url]To those who blame Mike Brown at every turn for Marvin being "held back" by his GM that only hands Marvin so called "talent lacking" teams 





You willfully miss the Point here, Fred.

When I showed my disappointment in the "Front Office" you take that as solely meaning Mike Brown.

When I say "Front Office" I include Marvin as being a Big Part of that "Front Office".

We saw how Mike Brown was as a GM in the 1990's.

Mike somehow became a better GM (via results) after Marvin came.

This is likely because Marvin has great INFLUENCE over the Roster decisions that are being made.

Not a total influence but a great enough influence to have Mike looking like a decent GM during those 7 Playoff appearances.

One can conclude that Marvin has more Roster shaping Power and influence than you pretend.

This team is in large part Marvin's baby since Marvin era teams look nothing like Mike's 1990's teams, especially during those 7 Playoff appearances. He has to be influencing GM Mike.

You may want to start blaming Marvin as much or more than Mike, if it is true that Marvin holds more Roster influence than you let on.

You would lose your "it's all Mike's fault" card.

By saying that Mike "holds back" Marvin by giving Marvin a roster that Marvin has no influence over, you then are assuming that Marvin entered every game that he lost with a LESSER game day Roster than the Head Coach that was opposing him did.  Not likely.

I'm sure Marvin entered games with BETTER game day Rosters than his opposing Head Coach had yet LOST.

So HOW are these types of losses Mike's fault ?

Does Mike wear a Head Set during games and mess up Marvin's brilliant Coaching during these games where Marvin has the better game day Roster than the other Head Coach opposing him ?

Could it possibly be Marvin's Coaching which is subpar in these cases, Fred ?

You can't honestly look at the needs this team has and claim that it is MARVIN'S decision to not sign good free agents to fill them.

That is absurd.   You are just playing "make believe" in order to try and make Marvin look worse.

Just curious, but why exactly do you think Marvin wants to lose and look bad instead of spend Mike Browns money for better free agents to win more games?

 

(11-26-2018, 01:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't honestly look at the needs this team has and claim that it is MARVIN'S decision to not sign good free agents to fill them.

That is absurd.   You are just playing "make believe" in order to try and make Marvin look worse.

Just curious, but why exactly do you think Marvin wants to lose and look bad instead of spend Mike Browns money for better free agents to win more games?

Nice try, Fred.

As I said in my Post, Marvin does not have a "total influence" but a Great enough influence to have Mike looking like a decent GM compared to how Mike looked in the 1990's.

The Bengals have been in the Top third of the NFL in spending during a number of Marvin's seasons here with the Bulk going to retaining their own players.

There have been a number of Marvin seasons where Expert Analysts from around the NFL have actually Praised Bengal Rosters for quality & depth. They have not all been as lacking as you imply.

Stop avoiding the burning question:  or even TWO questions:

Do you thus assume that Marvin entered every game that he LOST with a LESSER game day Roster than the Head Coach that was opposing him that day ?

Does Mike Brown wear a Head Set during games and mess up Marvin's brilliant Coaching during these games where Marvin had the better game day Roster than the other Head Coach he opposed had yet Marvin LOST ?

Stay focused and answer these two questions, Fred.

(11-26-2018, 02:03 PM)depthchart Wrote:
 




Nice try, Fred.

As I said in my Post, Marvin does not have a "total influence" but a Great enough influence to have Mike looking like a decent GM compared to how Mike looked in the 1990's.

The Bengals have been in the Top third of the NFL in spending during a number of Marvin's seasons here with the Bulk going to retaining their own players.

There have been a number of Marvin seasons where Expert Analysts from around the NFL have actually Praised Bengal Rosters for quality & depth. They have not all been as lacking as you imply.

Stop avoiding the burning question:  or even TWO questions:

Do you thus assume that Marvin entered every game that he LOST with a LESSER game day Roster than the Head Coach that was opposing him that day ?

Does Mike Brown wear a Head Set during games and mess up Marvin's brilliant Coaching during these games where Marvin had the better game day Roster than the other Head Coach he opposed had yet Marvin LOST ?

Stay focused and answer these two questions, Fred.

Your 1st bolded is the elephant in the room. There were a couple seasons where we had a Top 5 NFL roster and didn't win a playoff game. That's on the coaches there. Point blank.

At this point in ML's tenure it does not matter if he was ever good or not or to what extent he was good. The team under him right now is lost and has been since the 2015 playoff disaster. Change is needed.

It's probably a combination of pride, comfort, and job security.