(07-17-2019, 09:25 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: No, you can’t keep trading players away but you do have to continue to try to improve and that sometimes means trading guys that aren’t in the long term plans. The Reds just never seem to have a long term plan. Puig makes sense but only on a good deal. If he won’t negotiate now to a deal that’s reasonable then get an asset for him. Stop letting guys walk for nothing because ownership is halfass trying to win. The teams plans seem to change consistently. Their rebuild was absolutely grossly mismanaged.

You have to go at least one year without wheeling and dealing yourself back to another hundred loss season.  I hate the constant rebuild talk.  This year's team is noticeably  better than last year's.  David Hernandez is personally responsible for three of the last four losses.  They're not getting blown away.  They're mainly losing close games and to good teams.  They are not that far away.

The rebuild was mismanaged because they can't find young starting pitching and catchers who can hit. 

I'm not saying be a buyer but don't be a seller.  They can afford to pay Puig.  The Reds' payroll is very low, even with Votto's number.

Sure, blow it up yet again.  Empty that stadium.

(07-18-2019, 01:01 AM)McC Wrote: You have to go at least one year without wheeling and dealing yourself back to another hundred loss season.  I hate the constant rebuild talk.  This year's team is noticeably  better than last year's.  David Hernandez is personally responsible for three of the last four losses.  They're not getting blown away.  They're mainly losing close games and to good teams.  They are not that far away.

The rebuild was mismanaged because they can't find young starting pitching and catchers who can hit. 

I'm not saying be a buyer but don't be a seller.  They can afford to pay Puig.  The Reds' payroll is very low, even with Votto's number.

Sure, blow it up yet again.  Empty that stadium.

Nobody is saying to trade any of the good players under contract past this year. Nobody is saying to trade for minor leaguers. Nobody is saying not to try to sign Puig. People are saying that if you’re not going to sign them to trade them and get something. People are also saying not to sign Puig for twice what he’s worth, it has to be a fair deal. There aren’t many untouchable guys on this team. There’s a handful of guys that I wouldn’t trade but you should always try to improve the team, that doesn’t mean blow it up or rebuild but to tweak and add to the weak areas. I wouldn’t want to trade Castillo, Gray, Suarez or Senzel. They’re stuck with Votto, so that’s your core. Puig would be part of that main core if they can sign him. The Reds should be looking to improve on every other position and player if it’s there. They obviously can’t do that at every position but they should jump when they can. They need to stop loading up on one year deals on the offseason if they want a long term build.

(07-18-2019, 02:28 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Nobody is saying to trade any of the good players under contract past this year. Nobody is saying to trade for minor leaguers. Nobody is saying not to try to sign Puig. People are saying that if you’re not going to sign them to trade them and get something. People are also saying not to sign Puig for twice what he’s worth, it has to be a fair deal. There aren’t many untouchable guys on this team. There’s a handful of guys that I wouldn’t trade but you should always try to improve the team, that doesn’t mean blow it up or rebuild but to tweak and add to the weak areas. I wouldn’t want to trade Castillo, Gray, Suarez or Senzel. They’re stuck with Votto, so that’s your core. Puig would be part of that main core if they can sign him. The Reds should be looking to improve on every other position and player if it’s there. They obviously can’t do that at every position but they should jump when they can. They need to stop loading up on one year deals on the offseason if they want a long term build.

He has a problem of equating opinion to fact. We all do it, but it really seems to be a hurdle in his approach.

If the Reds don't get hot real quick and Puig doesn't intend to extend, then I think he'll be gone in two weeks since there isn't an August 31st deadline anymore. It is up to Puig and his agent, not the Reds brass. He may want to play in Cincinnati . . . or he may want to play in a big city . . . or he may want to play on a winning ball club again . . . or he may want the most money and he's probably not going to get that by limiting himself to just one bid from one suitor.

(07-18-2019, 06:37 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: He has a problem of equating opinion to fact. We all do it, but it really seems to be a hurdle in his approach.

If the Reds don't get hot real quick and Puig doesn't intend to extend, then I think he'll be gone in two weeks since there isn't an August 31st deadline anymore. It is up to Puig and his agent, not the Reds brass. He may want to play in Cincinnati . . . or he may want to play in a big city . . . or he may want to play on a winning ball club again . . . or he may want the most money and he's probably not going to get that by limiting himself to just one bid from one suitor.

When you talk about things that Puig may want, those are good points that we fans don’t consider enough. We just don’t know the whole story to any of the inside stuff. We can only go by what we know but that inside stuff can change everything. I get that some fans are afraid to regress back to the last 4 years, they don’t want to risk that. They’re still in last place though, so you’re not risking much. The Reds need a good business plan and then try to stick to that plan. They seem erratic in their planning.

It's right around the time where trading Puig and Roark seems like the ideal scenario.

(07-18-2019, 03:13 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: When you talk about things that Puig may want, those are good points that we fans don’t consider enough. We just don’t know the whole story to any of the inside stuff. We can only go by what we know but that inside stuff can change everything. I get that some fans are afraid to regress back to the last 4 years, they don’t want to risk that. They’re still in last place though, so you’re not risking much. The Reds need a good business plan and then try to stick to that plan. They seem erratic in their planning.

Agree

(07-22-2019, 09:01 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: It's right around the time where trading Puig and Roark seems like the ideal scenario.

Yep, they've got to understand by now that this team is just to inconsistent at the plate and flat out deficient in production offensively. If they're going to be able to compete they have to, HAVE TO get more then 40 RBI's from 1B and LF in a season.

The pitching overall is not the problem although they can use help there as well. It's the offense that sputters for weeks at a time.

9 games back, time to sell. Not everybody on the list. If they move a 2-3 guys, I’d be ok stopping there.

Who I’m fine with trading:
Roark
Disco
Puig
Peraza
Dietrich
Iglesias - just because of the value and expiring contract
Wood - probably nobody wants him though

(07-06-2019, 10:42 AM)kevin Wrote: The Reds are so close to First Place.  If this team trades players like Puig or Roark for the usual crap they get in return, I'm done with this franchise.  After years and years of putting the Fans through such awful last place baseball, HOW DARE they break up this team when they finally get near First Place after all these years.  

If the Reds trade Puig, forget about it, their season is over.  He is to this team what bringing in Dave Parker was.  You can't replace what Puig is doing in right field, at the plate, on the bases. .....and you can't replace Roark either.  He makes the starting rotation a solid staff.  You can't count on Wood, and if Wood does get in here pitching well, Roark is not the odd man out.   Castillo, Gray, Disco, Roark and Wood is the type staff that can get you to the play-offs and beyond.

Yet REDS.COM story today is maybe trading Puig.  HOW DARE THEY even consider that.  After all these years of putting the Fans through such Awful. Stinking, Lousy, Boring, Pointless, LAST PLACE baseball.  Now that the team is just starting to get good May, June into July.  The Fans deserve more than 2 good months after years of losing....Adding Roark was like adding Billingham or Fred Norman.  Adding Puig has been like adding Dave Parker. .....REDS FANS should be VERY UPSET if Reds get STUPID and CHEAP and make these trades, SELLING OUT THE FANS.

Now some might come on here and give reasons to go cheap and plan for years down the road.  Pete Rose, Lou Piniella or Sparky Anderson would say THE REDS are close to FIRST PLACE NOW.   NOW is THE CHANCE.  NOW is THE TIME.  Years down the road are hopes and pipe dreams. Even Reds big draft pick superstar just got all injured in minors.  The REDS find themselves near First Place NOW....NOW is the Time....Trading key players would just be stupid....Fans should boycott this team if they make these trades this month, because they will send Reds back in Last Place, when they could have been First Place.

1968 Bengals

If they trade any player trade VOTTO ! I know everybody thinks he's such a great player! But, he's a moody self righteous , poor player. He showed that last night when he hit with runners on and got out! He ran his jaws about that for a good while. Cowboy and Thom mentioined that he (Votto) doesn't like the hit and run. Cowboy,remarked "you do what you have to do to win ballgames"!

(07-23-2019, 04:09 PM)firstand10 Wrote: If they trade any player trade VOTTO ! I know everybody thinks he's such a great player! But, he's a moody self righteous , poor player. He showed that last night when he hit with runners on and got out! He ran his jaws about that for a good while. Cowboy and Thom mentioined that he (Votto) doesn't like the hit and run. Cowboy,remarked "you do what you have to do to win ballgames"!

I’ve never been a big Votto fan. The guy has had a very good career and on some Reds boards you aren’t allowed to say one negative thing about him without half of the board wanting to beat you. He’s always seemed like a real jerk to me but baseball is about stats and not personality. I respect the numbers that he’s put up through the years, I do think that he obsessed over his personal stats and those have always been more important to him than winning. He knows that OBP is his only way to the hall so he tries extra hard to walk. The main point though is the now and not his great past. In the now, he is in a drastic decline. Outside of Crabtree’s, Votto is probably the worst remaining contract in all of baseball. He isn’t tradable! He’s only worth about 20% of what he’s signed for. How will the Reds handle this??????? They will continue to put the team in a bad spot by starting him 90% of the time and hitting him second and third in the lineup. The owners and managers are always cowards in these situations. There is zero reason for Votto to hit higher than sixth right now. Is there anyone in the world that disagrees with that? The manager and the owner knows this but his feelings are more important than the Reds winning. That sums up the organization, right there! They will also sacrifice all of next year even if he sucks all of the way through and that is really sad and pathetic. Will they also sacrifice the following 3 years???? I think they’ll eventually have him platoon the last 2 years at 25 mil per year, exciting huh? The point is that you are stuck with Votto regardless of how he plays and the Reds will sacrifice the first base position for the next 4 years just because he is Joey Votto. This will not end well! The love that Votto earned will turn to him being despised before the end. It would be great if he found a way to find enough to play respectable till the end but it isn’t looking good. Btw, sacrificing first base more than likely means sacrificing the playoffs for 4 years too!

(07-23-2019, 04:09 PM)firstand10 Wrote: If they trade any player trade VOTTO !  I know everybody thinks he's such a great player! But, he's a moody self righteous , poor player. He showed that last night when he hit with runners on and got out! He ran his jaws about that for a good while. Cowboy and Thom mentioined that he (Votto) doesn't like the hit and run.  Cowboy,remarked "you do what you have to do to win ballgames"!

There is no market for him.  He's all but untradeable.   I would love to be proven wrong.

(07-23-2019, 08:09 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I’ve never been a big Votto fan.

He’s always seemed like a real jerk to me.

I do think that he obsessed over his personal stats and those have always been more important to him than winning

WTF?

I agree that Votto seems to have lost his stroke, but why make up a bunch of bullshit to rip him?  He is not a jerk and there is no indication that he cares more about his stats than winning.  Votto is like many players who think you win by not swinging at bad pitches.

Votto has a career slugging percentage well over .500 so it is silly to claim that OB% is the only think he is good at.

(07-23-2019, 11:31 PM)McC Wrote: There is no market for him.  He's all but untradeable.   I would love to be proven wrong.

The only way to trade him would be to agree to pay a major portion of his remaining salary.  So that does us no good at all.

(07-23-2019, 08:09 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote:  There is zero reason for Votto to hit higher than sixth right now. Is there anyone in the world that disagrees with that?

Yes.  In fact I would guess that EVERYONE would disagree.

Votto is third on the team in batting average and 2nd in OB%.

He is sixth in slugging, but one of the guys ahead of him is Dietrich who is hitting .150 and slugging .290 over the last two months compared to Votto's .275 and .444.

(07-24-2019, 05:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: WTF?

I agree that Votto seems to have lost his stroke, but why make up a bunch of bullshit to rip him?  He is not a jerk and there is no indication that he cares more about his stats than winning.  Votto is like many players who think you win by not swinging at bad pitches.

Votto has a career slugging percentage well over .500 so it is silly to claim that OB% is the only think he is good at.

A difference in opinion doesn’t warrant a wtf. I’ve seen the guy dangle a fowl ball to opposing fans that included kids, only to pull the ball back. That’s my definition of jerk, if your bias doesn’t allow you to call out actions from hometown players then that’s your choice. There’s every indication that he focuses on his OBP stats and these are not bad pitches that he is striking out on as he tries to walk. You’re entitled to your opinion and so am I. The difference is that I’m not gonna curse toward you to try to prove a point. Everyone is different though!

(07-24-2019, 05:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  In fact I would guess that EVERYONE would disagree.

Votto is third on the team in batting average and 2nd in OB%.

He is sixth in slugging, but one of the guys ahead of him is Dietrich who is hitting .150 and slugging .290 over the last two months compared to Votto's .275 and .444.

Now, you made 2 points here that make a good argument! My thought is that Suarez and Puig have to hit 3 and 4. Do you agree with that? Votto has little speed and is prone to make a dozen base running mistakes every year. Right now I’d like to see if Ervin is in next years plans. He should either be hitting 2nd or 5th right now. He needs to be left in as a full time guy to see if he’s real or not. He has a higher OBP than Votto and is faster but obviously he hasn’t had as many at bats. If Senzel is gonna be out then Votto should probably stay at 2nd. Votto isn’t an ideal second place hitter though, he’s luckily playing on a team where nobody has hit well. Once scooter gets his spring training over, he would make a better #2. Again, these are all opinions. None of us are gods of baseball knowledge and it isn’t worth getting pissed off at other posters about.

(07-24-2019, 05:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  In fact I would guess that EVERYONE would disagree.

Votto is third on the team in batting average and 2nd in OB%.

He is sixth in slugging, but one of the guys ahead of him is Dietrich who is hitting .150 and slugging .290 over the last two months compared to Votto's .275 and .444.

Votto's slugging % is .403 We're well past halfway now and he only has 29 RBI's !

Slugging % of the regular players with 200+ at bats:

Suarez .532
Dietrich .528
Puig .492
Winker .467
Senzel .466

Ervin in 81 at bats is .605
VanMeter in 60 at bats is .433
Farmer in 67 at bats is .430

Jose Iglesias, basically an unheard of, playing SS, has 34 RBI's and is slugging .382 right on Votto's heels the former MVP

Votto's lack of production, swinging the bat like a girl, headcase at the plate, trying to walk no matter the situation has been a major contributor to our lack of offense all season.

League wide among 1bmen his stats don't even make it on the map !

Don't look now, but Puig has cooled off considerably in the past week. That in itself means nothing, but as the deadline, 2 days away gets closer it's quite meaningful. As far as Votto..I doubt he ever goes anywhere except to eventual retirement as a Red. There's NOTHING that says he has to start 99% of every game the team plays or hit in the 2 hole every time. A smart manager would know that, but the Reds have David Bell so smart isn't part of the equation.. 
The Reds will get zilch for Puig and Roark and both will be FA's soon.. STEEERIKE 3! 

I'm still sticking to this..3 days after I wrote it..

OK....Bauer for Puig I can see. Reds also give up top prospect Trammel to San Diego in the 3 team deal as San Diego sends players to Cleveland. Getting Cleveland Indian star pitcher Bauer is A BIG DEAL. The pitching staff of Indians that was so great is not so great now with Carrasco in life and death health and Kubler health bad this season. However Reds now have a great staff like Indians had. 3 All-Stars in Castillo, Bauer, Gray and add in Disco, Wood and Roark. That makes 6 starters and I can now see maybe another trade announced before day is over of Wood or Roark. A team needing a pitcher.

So Reds did not trade down to finish last. They traded up and have the 5 best starters in the NL Central now. With 2 months left and not all that far out of first, the Reds are going for it. This All-Star pitching staff gives Reds play-off hope this year. Watch out for the Reds last 2 months with a pitching staff as good as Indians who went to World Series had.

The good young outfielders made Puig trade bait. Puig is good, but getting Bauer is amazing. I'm amazed Indians traded him. Indians just ruined their 2019 chances. Reds chances just got better.

Reds traded Roark for Top 7 OF prospect in Jameson Hannah.