For all the love Tate gets here he's never going to suddenly become some kind of speedster so his ability to do things he really can't do are always going to be limited.
On many teams he would be a non-factor, but this season in particular he found success mainly because he can catch the ball and contest a lot of them with his size and strength and because we were missing both Green and Ross for significant parts of the season. Green for all of it.. If both Green and Ross had been perfectly healthy and producing all season there would have likely been very little notice of Tate at all. He stepped in in their absences and made a bit of a name for himself, but let's not pretend he was ever in the running for the preeminent WR of the league or anything close. It would take an act of congress and god himself for Tate to ever gain 1000 yards in a single season.
Don't get me wrong, I like the guy for what he brings to the table, but he's also easily replaceable if the team can find a few really good receivers in the draft or god forbid, free agency. 

Play him in AJ's old spot and let AJ go elsewhere. IF he doesn't fracture or tear something through training camp, it will be almost two whole years since he's played in a game that counts. Greg Cook, anyone?

(12-31-2019, 06:32 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Play him in AJ's old spot and let AJ go elsewhere. IF he doesn't fracture or tear something through training camp, it will be almost two whole years since he's played in a game that counts. Greg Cook, anyone?

Having to make all those acrobatic circus catches on terrible passes thrown by our mediocre QB over years finally caught up to old #18 I suppose.

(12-30-2019, 11:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Personally, I don't care where they line him up, because you know exactly what you're getting, no matter where he begins the play.  He's tall, strong, has great hands and body control.  He is a possession receiver extraodinaire, can take a hit and move the chains, can go up and over defenders in the red zone.

Knock him all you want, for his lack of speed.  His other qualities still make him a damn good football player.

Things went kind of sideways and this thread became about what WRs folks like, etc, but I thought Tate might be (especially with Green out) a better candidate in the slot to utilize his strengths and Boyd could do everything Green did.  

People get hung up on 40 times, but Jerry Rice was not a burner rather he was an outstanding route runner.  Some of these things can be taught (some can't) and I thought the work that Tate put in this offseason showed a lot of his desire.  The guy has hands like glue and is tough as nails.  As you said, he is a damn fine ball player and I want to find ways to get him on the field.  

TJ Houshmanzadeh was no burner, either, but was tough as nails and "smooth" in his route running.  He also had great hands.  I see Tate as a bigger version of TJ and the more I watched him the more I was impressed with his route running.  

(12-31-2019, 08:59 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Things went kind of sideways and this thread became about what WRs folks like, etc, but I thought Tate might be (especially with Green out) a better candidate in the slot to utilize his strengths and Boyd could do everything Green did.  

People get hung up on 40 times, but Jerry Rice was not a burner rather he was an outstanding route runner.  Some of these things can be taught (some can't) and I thought the work that Tate put in this offseason showed a lot of his desire.  The guy has hands like glue and is tough as nails.  As you said, he is a damn fine ball player and I want to find ways to get him on the field.  

TJ Houshmanzadeh was no burner, either, but was tough as nails and "smooth" in his route running.  He also had great hands.  I see Tate as a bigger version of TJ and the more I watched him the more I was impressed with his route running.  

TJ, Rice...those are some lofty comparisons lol

I do like Tate, but I don’t think he’ll ever be anything close to those guys (obviously not in Rice’s case). I’ll be happy if he could be a solid #3 for us going forward.

(12-30-2019, 11:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Personally, I don't care where they line him up, because you know exactly what you're getting, no matter where he begins the play.  He's tall, strong, has great hands and body control.  He is a possession receiver extraodinaire, can take a hit and move the chains, can go up and over defenders in the red zone.

Knock him all you want, for his lack of speed.  His other qualities still make him a damn good football player.

Exactly Sunset !

So what if the guy can't out run a cheetah on fly routes that's not his thing. Like you say he's a hell of a weapon on 3rd and 6 and red zone matchup problem from hell. The guy has an amazing catch radius !

He's a keeper and that's all there is to it. Call him the 5th WR if it makes you feel better.

(12-30-2019, 04:53 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Tate is a WR 5 on a good team, and a WR 4 on a bad one.  In other words, he’s subject to roster churn and replacement.  Auden will win his fair share of contested balls, but his lack of speed and wiggle limits his ceiling.

This is laughable. Let's play a game, go find me a good team that has four receivers better than him. I eagerly await your response...

When people say stupid, hyperbolic, crap like this it makes coming here unbearable at times.

While I am here, let's go ahead and kill this "doesn't have speed so must play in the slot" thing. Tate averaged 14.4 yards per catch on 40 catches this year, that is a better per catch average then WR's with similar catch numbers such as Will Fuller, Dede Westbrook, Hollywood Brown, TY Hilton, Corey Davis, Brandon Cooks, Kenny Stills, Emmanual Sanders.

The guys is a possession receiver, the idea is you throw him the ball and he catches it. 7 yards down field or 30 yards down field you throw him the ball and he catches it. Speed does not matter because separation isn't his game. He uses his big frame to shield the corner back and strong hands to snatch and hold on to the ball. This idea that speed is some sort of requirement isn't true and he proved it this year aside from the stats themselves, his 70.8 PFF grade is just 2 points shy of Tyler Boyd.

The guy has a really bright future and barring any sort of injury next season I'd expect a 1k yard year out of him. The fact people don't praise our front office for finding this guy in the 7th is actually kind of absurd.

(12-31-2019, 08:59 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Things went kind of sideways and this thread became about what WRs folks like, etc, but I thought Tate might be (especially with Green out) a better candidate in the slot to utilize his strengths and Boyd could do everything Green did.  

People get hung up on 40 times, but Jerry Rice was not a burner rather he was an outstanding route runner.  Some of these things can be taught (some can't) and I thought the work that Tate put in this offseason showed a lot of his desire.  The guy has hands like glue and is tough as nails.  As you said, he is a damn fine ball player and I want to find ways to get him on the field.  

TJ Houshmanzadeh was no burner, either, but was tough as nails and "smooth" in his route running.  He also had great hands.  I see Tate as a bigger version of TJ and the more I watched him the more I was impressed with his route running.  

Yep,

Michael Thomas isn't a speed demon either. People put way to much emphasis on you have to be a world class sprinter to be a good WR and it's just not true. Look at all the slow guys Brady has turned into household names. 

(12-30-2019, 03:28 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Watching Michael Thomas and Larry Fitzgerald, I see I lot of similarities in their body type and athleticism with Auden Tate.  Tate may be a "poor man's" (insert Mike Brown joke here) version of these players, but seeing how Fitz extended his career moving to the slot and how Thomas gets 45% of his targets in the slot, I think it would make sense to move Tate there and try Boyd on the outside.  

Boyd is the best route-runner on the team not named Green, and has more "long speed" than quicks anyways.  

I see Tate as a very reliable, move-the-chains receiver for the Bengals that could fill the role of TJ Whostolemyhonda.  

I guess I just see him as a bit of a waste outside vs. Boyd who could do both.  If Green isn't re-signed or is traded (not likely IMHO), Boyd might be the best choice to replace him.

I still think they're going to tag AJ to make him prove he can stay healthy all year.  Although I'm not a big fan of that decision I would love to see what Tate could do with AJ and Boyd in the game.  I too would like to see Tate in the slot but Boyd does really good dirty work in there.  Tate's got great hands which is a huge thing when being covered single in man.  

I guess my point is I'm a little twisted with the AJ scenario.  I'd like to see them get a good pick in the draft by trade but also curious to see how the 3 would do if on the field at the same time.  Guess that means either way I will both satisfied and dissatisfied..... so meh.

(12-31-2019, 09:35 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly Sunset !

So what if the guy can't out run a cheetah on fly routes that's not his thing. Like you say he's a hell of a weapon on 3rd and 6 and red zone matchup problem from hell. The guy has an amazing catch radius !

He's a keeper and that's all there is to it. Call him the 5th WR if it makes you feel better.

How is he "a red zone matchup from hell?". In 19 career games, he has 1 TD.  That's like saying John Ross is durable or Andy Dalton has a cannon for an arm. 

(12-31-2019, 08:59 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Things went kind of sideways and this thread became about what WRs folks like, etc, but I thought Tate might be (especially with Green out) a better candidate in the slot to utilize his strengths and Boyd could do everything Green did.  

People get hung up on 40 times, but Jerry Rice was not a burner rather he was an outstanding route runner.  Some of these things can be taught (some can't) and I thought the work that Tate put in this offseason showed a lot of his desire.  The guy has hands like glue and is tough as nails.  As you said, he is a damn fine ball player and I want to find ways to get him on the field.  

TJ Houshmanzadeh was no burner, either, but was tough as nails and "smooth" in his route running.  He also had great hands.  I see Tate as a bigger version of TJ and the more I watched him the more I was impressed with his route running.  

The issue is, you can really only have one slot guy if you're primarily running 11 personnel.  Boyd is best in the slot.  Trying to move Tate there is robbing Peter to pay Paul.  We need deep threats, anyways.  Just get an outside WR that can play the part.

Another issue is Tate struggles to get separation and that leads to a lot of contested balls.  That means more balls batted up in the air in the middle of the field with LB's and S's roving around to pick them off.  It also means guys jumping slants due to his lack of speed and open field quickness.

Certainly, you don't have to be a burner to be a good NFL WR.  However, you can't have a bunch of slow WR's out there, either.  Rice had John Taylor, who was more of a vertical threat.  They complimented each other.  TJ had Chad and Henry, both of whom were deep threats.  

(12-31-2019, 10:47 AM)Whatever Wrote: How is he "a red zone matchup from hell?". In 19 career games, he has 1 TD.  That's like saying John Ross is durable or Andy Dalton has a cannon for an arm. 

Fun fact, Auden Tate was targeted just twice inside the 10 yard line this entire season catching one of those targets...for a TD. The issue isn't his lack of effectiveness in the Red Zone it is the lack of usage. Play calling has been an issue this year and add their lack of targeting Tate down on the goaline to that list. 

(12-30-2019, 05:37 PM)corpjet Wrote: I disagree he's our 3rd best WR behind AJ and Boyd and can be a solid #3 on any team.

Yes he doesn't have th speed and wiggle but the kid can catch most anything thrown his way.  As the OP said he's a poor mans AJ Green, Im glad to see we were able to hold onto him after ole Marvin did his usual of screwing any and all rookies.

Moving forward I think he can be a valuable part of this team, heck I would keep him over Ross (who needs to be traded for anything) in a heartbeat!

Didn't he catch just under 50% of the balls thrown his way? That's slightly below Ross and last among Bengals eligible WRs/TEs.

There's clearly a role for him on a NFL roster but those aren't spectacular numbers (although they were spectacular catches).
The thing I want to understand is why all his catches were spectacular - where were the mundane catches that he didn't have to dive for? The QB play may be a factor here but it didn't effect the likes of Boyd and Eifert.

(12-31-2019, 11:05 AM)Whatever Wrote: The issue is, you can really only have one slot guy if you're primarily running 11 personnel.  Boyd is best in the slot.  Trying to move Tate there is robbing Peter to pay Paul.  We need deep threats, anyways.  Just get an outside WR that can play the part.

Another issue is Tate struggles to get separation and that leads to a lot of contested balls.  That means more balls batted up in the air in the middle of the field with LB's and S's roving around to pick them off.  It also means guys jumping slants due to his lack of speed and open field quickness.

Certainly, you don't have to be a burner to be a good NFL WR.  However, you can't have a bunch of slow WR's out there, either.  Rice had John Taylor, who was more of a vertical threat.  They complimented each other.  TJ had Chad and Henry, both of whom were deep threats.  

Just stop. As I said he doesn't need separation because he is really good at using his frame to shield the ball from the CB. He is 20th in contested catch rate in the entire NFL, i.e. he is one of the best contested catchers in the whole league. What will help him is better ball placement his ball placement was 97th in the NFL. Again, aside from all the advanced statistics PFF had him graded well above average and only 2 points lower than Boyd.

This weird Auden Tate isn't good thing around here is getting out of hand. 

(12-31-2019, 11:07 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Didn't he catch just under 50% of the balls thrown his way? That's slightly below Ross and last among Bengals eligible WRs/TEs.

There's clearly a role for him on a NFL roster but those aren't spectacular numbers (although they were spectacular catches).
The thing I want to understand is why all his catches were spectacular - where were the mundane catches that he didn't have to dive for? The QB play may be a factor here but it didn't effect the likes of Boyd and Eifert.

All targets aren't created equal. His catchable target rate was only 65% good for 98th in the league. Basically the balls were thrown in his direction but a lot of them had no chance to be conceivably caught. His 2.5% drop rate is a little higher than you want, but on his limited catchable targets that's only two balls.

(12-31-2019, 10:34 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: I still think they're going to tag AJ to make him prove he can stay healthy all year.  Although I'm not a big fan of that decision I would love to see what Tate could do with AJ and Boyd in the game.  I too would like to see Tate in the slot but Boyd does really good dirty work in there.  Tate's got great hands which is a huge thing when being covered single in man.  

I guess my point is I'm a little twisted with the AJ scenario.  I'd like to see them get a good pick in the draft by trade but also curious to see how the 3 would do if on the field at the same time.  Guess that means either way I will both satisfied and dissatisfied..... so meh.

As loyal as MB is, I suspect they give AJ a 3 year contract, front loaded, heavily laden with incentives for years 2 and 3.....

Tates lack of red zone targets tells me ZT and Callahan
Simply did not know how to get the proper personal
On the field
(Uzomah was underused until weeks 16 and 17)
Auden Tate before he got hurt was starting to
Find his niche in the offense. He was the go to guy
When you needed to convert a 3rd down.
For all those posters that think Tate is a 5th WR
Go Rewatch what he did vs the Ravens.
It's on YouTube.
He went from beng a practice squad player to
Averaging 14.0 yards per catch with a offensive
Game plan that didn't find identity until weeks after
He was hurt

(12-31-2019, 11:13 AM)Au165 Wrote: All targets aren't created equal. His catchable target rate was only 65% good for 98th in the league. Basically the balls were thrown in his direction most a lot of them had no chance to be conceivably caught. His 2.5% drop rate is a little higher than you want, but on his limited catchable targets that's only two balls.

The problem is that when you can't get open, the QB has to try and put it where only you can get it.  That leads to a lot of uncatchable passes.  

John Ross had a ton of drops, but the same catch rate because he can get seperation a generate easier throws for the QB.

(12-31-2019, 11:27 AM)Whatever Wrote: The problem is that when you can't get open, the QB has to try and put it where only you can get it.  That leads to a lot of uncatchable passes.  

John Ross had a ton of drops, but the same catch rate because he can get seperation a generate easier throws for the QB.

This isn't based in fact what so ever. He get's 10 inches less separation that Tyler Boyd. The difference is their average depth of target is over 3 yards different with Tate having much deeper average depth of targets. That difference in average depth of target leads to a full point difference in target quality rating from Boyd to Tate (scores ball placement, 6 is average Tate's was 4.4 Boyd's was 5.5). What is interesting is Dalton's target rating as a whole was 7.4, but was heavily bolstered by shorter passes where he was far above league average in accuracy and then fell off a cliff as he got deeper down the field.

Basically, what the actual data shows us is that Tate was thrown a lot of horrible balls that were uncatchable downfield. When they were catchable however he came down with an insanely high rate of them. His separation is really not any worse than Tyler Boyd (who has a really good contested catch rate BTW), but Boyd benefited from more accurately thrown balls at a shorter depth of target.