(04-12-2017, 11:31 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I agree with this, but we also don't know what has or has not been offered for him. I also think it is grossly unfair to compare 2015 Dalton to the five games McCarron played in 2015.  That was Dalton's fifth year as the starter, his fifth year getting all the first team reps.  I hear people say "McCarron held onto the ball too long", "he didn't go through his progression as fast as Dalton"... obviously, because it was Dalton's fifth year as the starter.  If he would have come into his first real game action as a pro and either matched or out performed our fifth year starter that would be a real problem and an indictment of Andy.

Personally, I think McCarron is going to be what Andy Dalton is... an above average NFL starting quarterback.  Is he going to be a perennial All Pro, future Hall of Fame, record setting quarterback?  No, but neither is Andy Dalton.  I also think the Browns could be a good situation for a guy like McCarron, but according to reports over the last 24 hours they seem to be falling in love with Trubisky so we may never know.

(04-12-2017, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Context buddy...context. I wasn't comparing the long term prospects of the two. I was simply pointing out that the team fell off when Dalton went down. So why worry about keeping around a good backup when there is still a pretty massive drop off? That's all I was saying there. Maybe McCarron will get better as a starter, but he won't be a starter here. So he won't see that improvement in stripes.

Now to speak of McCarron's long term prospects, we just have to disagree. I'd be stunned if he developed to be as good as Dalton. Right now, Dalton is miles ahead of McCarron, and Mac is 27 years old. McCarron does not possess Dalton's physical tools (athleticism and arm) and Dalton is even further ahead mentally. People really underestimate Dalton's pre-snap ability. He puts us into better plays a lot more than some seem to realize. He's been a master of his offense from day 1, when Jay Gruden said Andy was correcting him on plays...as a rookie.

That's not even mentioning Dalton's quick release (mostly due to reading defenses pre-snap) which is a stark contrast to McC. Dalton came in with that ability. Or how much Dalton improved in the pocket. No guarantee McCarron can improve as much. Even if McCarron catches up to Dalton in some of these areas (which is not likely), there's other areas where he just can't catch up because he wasn't blessed with those abilities.

(04-12-2017, 12:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Somewhat. Admittedly, I used to complain about guys like Gradkowski, Josh Johnson and Jordan Palmer. We can do better than that even if we trade McCarron. 

2. McCarron is a top notch backup, but would be a bottom rung starter. Someone a team would move on from pretty quickly once they saw what they had. I'd place his max value as a 2nd rounder. Maybe even a 3rd or later. If I'm being honest, it's really hard to tell.

3. Depends. If it's a 2nd or 3rd, I'd pull the trigger. The more talent we can get at other positions, the better. This team needs help. Dalton isn't likely to get hurt, certainly isn't likely to get hurt for a long period of time, and there are backups we can get on the open market that could be just as good (but with less long term potential...which we don't need). Available right now are...

Ryan Fitzpatrick
RGIII
Shaun Hill (37 years old, but should have plenty left)
Blaine Gabbert (improved a great deal in SF)
Dan Orlovsky 
Christian Ponder
Thad Lewis
Ryan Nassib
Austin Davis (probably the guy I'd want, he had a great run in St Louis)

Some might laugh at some of these names, but just because a guy flamed out as a full-time starter doesn't mean he'd make a bad backup. I really like Gabbert or Austin Davis.

(04-12-2017, 01:24 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Fitzpatrick coming full circle and being a back up for Bengals again would not suck. 

Not sure if he would or not but to me his experience would be an upgrade immediately as our back up. 

Then throw in we could get (like you think) a 2nd or 3rd round pick. 

It would be a no brainer I would think. 

(04-10-2017, 12:07 PM)Benton Wrote: Boyd started 2 games (granted, he played much more). WJ III didn't do as well.
Fisher 1 (granted, he played more). Oogie, didn't do as well.
Hill, pretty good rookie year. Dennard, played some, don't think he started any.

So, hell, you might be right. As long as it's not a first round player, looks like the guy has a chance to come in and contribute. Seems we do better lately with our seconds than our firsts, at least earlier on.

That said, I still wouldn't trade AJM. I remember living in constant fear of hearing "And coming into the game is Jordan Palmer."

There are some saying the season is over (or the game) if Andy goes down. That's not true if you have a competent backup. People can debate if he's a starter or a scrub or whatever, but we know AJM is a competent backup. As long as he's on the roster, the season isn't over, regardless of what happens to AD. I don't want to spend this season fearing the words "And coming into the game is... who the $#!% is Jeff Driskell?"

(04-10-2017, 01:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think Nate meant more that it seems typically (at least in the Dalton era) that 2nd round picks are getting (many) more snaps out of the gate compared to their 1st round counterparts.

It seems as if the 1st round is BPA selection for the future whereas the 2nd round is more about immediate help.

That's part of the reason I think 1st round is a pass catcher and 2nd round is a DE. The other part is I believe a pass catcher will simply be BPA over a DE at 9 unless Thomas falls.

Yep, that is what i meant, way to clear it up Ocho.

(04-10-2017, 02:57 PM)BigSeph Wrote: 1.  No relation.

2.  The defense played great for 3.5 quarters.  I'm not here to take anything away from the defense in that game.

3.  Of course you have no doubt that Andy would have won that game, because you're just as much of an Andy homer as I am an AJM homer.  Andy's playoff history would suggest that he would have choked badly.

4.  He drove the offense right down the field into the red zone after getting a lucky 15-yard penalty and Hill getting 12 rushing yards (this is how AJM bashers talk about AJM's performances)

BTW, i will gladly eat crow if he goes to some team and plays lights out. He will need a good O-line though.

(04-12-2017, 02:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I guess i can somewhat understand this, sure is a lot better when we have that insurance at backup.

But still, if we can get an impact player that will start soon enough, i jump at that chance rather than
just letting him leave next year for nada. I like the fire in AJM but he holds onto the ball a long time.


Yep, that is what i meant, way to clear it up Ocho.


1. You are clearly biased for AJM, clearly.

2. Sure sounds like you put more of that possible Playoff win on AJM's shoulders than the Defense.

3. I am no where near as much of an Andy homer as you are an AJM homer. I know and list Andy's weaknesses.
But his weakness is not holding onto the ball too long like AJM's is. AJM will have to have a very good O-line to
succeed in the NFL.

I do like McCarron's fire, i will give him that and i liked how he improved on not turning the ball over as he played
more and more. I just want us to get something for him if he is just going to leave next year for nothing.

BTW, i will gladly eat crow if he goes to some team and plays lights out. He will need a good O-line though.

(04-12-2017, 12:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly. The guy has natural leadership qualities, solid accuracy and the game isn't too big for him. He doesn't look overwhelmed at all when he's in there, and that's all you can ask for in a backup. I'm 50/50 on whether he'll eventually get a shot somewhere, whether it's via trade or as a FA. Maybe he will...or maybe we're all (some of us especially so) overrating him. Jim O has suggested as much.

If he does get traded, I don't think he'll garner more than a 2nd round pick - if that - and as a starter, I don't think he'll have long term success. His arm would be among the worst in the NFL (among starters). He struggled with zone and disguised blitzes. He hangs on to the ball a lot. He's pretty oblivious in the pocket. Maybe these things get better, maybe not. It took Dalton 5 seasons to reach his full potential. McCarron is 27 in September.

To sum up my stance on Mac, I understand some optimism. He had a great college career where he was a well-known star and he exceeded expectations somewhat when Dalton went down. I get all that, but when you have guys claiming "star in the making", or "next Tom Brady", and saying we should get a 1st round pick for him, I feel a need to check these guys. 

(04-12-2017, 02:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I guess i can somewhat understand this, sure is a lot better when we have that insurance at backup.

But still, if we can get an impact player that will start soon enough, i jump at that chance rather than
just letting him leave next year for nada. I like the fire in AJM but he holds onto the ball a long time.


Yep, that is what i meant, way to clear it up Ocho.


1. You are clearly biased for AJM, clearly.

2. Sure sounds like you put more of that possible Playoff win on AJM's shoulders than the Defense.

3. I am no where near as much of an Andy homer as you are an AJM homer. I know and list Andy's weaknesses.
But his weakness is not holding onto the ball too long like AJM's is. AJM will have to have a very good O-line to
succeed in the NFL.

I do like McCarron's fire, i will give him that and i liked how he improved on not turning the ball over as he played
more and more. I just want us to get something for him if he is just going to leave next year for nothing.

BTW, i will gladly eat crow if he goes to some team and plays lights out. He will need a good O-line though.

(04-12-2017, 03:00 PM)BigSeph Wrote: Likewise when ignorant posters claim he has a terrible arm, can't beat zone defense, got sacked too much, has no pocket presence, etc I point out Brady's rate stats vs McCarron's rate stats in their first NFL season of playing time and shut those absurd criticisms down.

Players can improve, and it often takes first team reps and game experience.

I'm not putting a cap on McCarron because I'm in love with Andy Dalton.  Both QBs are at least average NFL QBs as-is right now, AJM has the potential to improve and become what Andy is - an above average NFL QB.  And maybe more.

With less choking in big moments.

(04-12-2017, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Context buddy...context. I wasn't comparing the long term prospects of the two. I was simply pointing out that the team fell off when Dalton went down. So why worry about keeping around a good backup when there is still a pretty massive drop off? That's all I was saying there. Maybe McCarron will get better as a starter, but he won't be a starter here. So he won't see that improvement in stripes.

Now to speak of McCarron's long term prospects, we just have to disagree. I'd be stunned if he developed to be as good as Dalton. Right now, Dalton is miles ahead of McCarron, and Mac is 27 years old. McCarron does not possess Dalton's physical tools (athleticism and arm) and Dalton is even further ahead mentally. People really underestimate Dalton's pre-snap ability. He puts us into better plays a lot more than some seem to realize. He's been a master of his offense from day 1, when Jay Gruden said Andy was correcting him on plays...as a rookie.

That's not even mentioning Dalton's quick release (mostly due to reading defenses pre-snap) which is a stark contrast to McC. Dalton came in with that ability. Or how much Dalton improved in the pocket. No guarantee McCarron can improve as much. Even if McCarron catches up to Dalton in some of these areas (which is not likely), there's other areas where he just can't catch up because he wasn't blessed with those abilities.

(04-12-2017, 03:48 PM)jason Wrote: The day will come when I won't hear the name "AJ McCarron" ever again... That day can't come soon enough.

(04-12-2017, 03:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: So what's your take on what happened in the second half of the Denver game?  Not trying to be a smart ass, I really am interested in your take.

(04-12-2017, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Claiming that McCarron can't play against a zone defense because he struggled against the '15 Bronco's defense is like saying a basball player can't hit a fastball because he struggled against Aroldis Chapman. 

When you look at the passer ratings of other games against that defense that year (Flacco 38.2, Alex Smith 53.9, Rivers 57.1, Rodgers 69.7) the question should not be what happened in the second half to AJ McCarron, but instead how did he do that in the first half?

You think Phillip Rivers does not know how to read a zone dfense?

(04-12-2017, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Claiming that McCarron can't play against a zone defense because he struggled against the '15 Bronco's defense is like saying a basball player can't hit a fastball because he struggled against Aroldis Chapman. 

When you look at the passer ratings of other games against that defense that year (Flacco 38.2, Alex Smith 53.9, Rivers 57.1, Rodgers 69.7) the question should not be what happened in the second half to AJ McCarron, but instead how did he do that in the first half?

You think Phillip Rivers does not know how to read a zone dfense?

(04-12-2017, 04:25 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: That defense did win them a Super Bowl.

(04-12-2017, 04:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: No question.  However, he straight up blistered their ass in the first half.  Something changed.  I like the kid, and believe he is a gamer, but he struggled after an adjustment was made by the DC.

(04-12-2017, 03:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: So what's your take on what happened in the second half of the Denver game?  Not trying to be a smart ass, I really am interested in your take.

(04-12-2017, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Claiming that McCarron can't play against a zone defense because he struggled against the '15 Bronco's defense is like saying a basball player can't hit a fastball because he struggled against Aroldis Chapman. 

When you look at the passer ratings of other games against that defense that year (Flacco 38.2, Alex Smith 53.9, Rivers 57.1, Rodgers 69.7) the question should not be what happened in the second half to AJ McCarron, but instead how did he do that in the first half?

You think Phillip Rivers does not know how to read a zone dfense?