Chase not Practicing

[Sled21]

Cleveland boned the whole league with Watson's contract. Now top players think they should all get almost all their deal guaranteed. It's BS. The only way he wouldn't see the end of his contract is if he got hurt. If he got hurt, he doesn't really deserve the rest of the money and he can go live on the 50 or 60 million he's already made. The greed has to stop somewhere.

[*Nately120*]

(09-13-2024, 11:51 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Cleveland boned the whole league with Watson's contract. Now top players think they should all get almost all their deal guaranteed. It's BS. The only way he wouldn't see the end of his contract is if he got hurt. If he got hurt, he doesn't really deserve the rest of the money and he can go live on the 50 or 60 million he's already made. The greed has to stop somewhere.

I feel like the Watson deal being such a bad move that it makes one of the worst franchises ever look worse than ever should insulate the rest of the NFL from having to follow suit.  Saying every team has to give a zillion guaranteed bucks to their QB because the Browns did it is like saying everyone has to shoot themselves in the foot in order to see if the bullet will bounce off their steel toed boot because a dude I went to school with did it in 1996.

We saw it happen, we saw it was a terrible idea...we shouldn't be compelled to jump off a bridge because the Browns did it first.

[Sled21]

(09-13-2024, 12:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I feel like the Watson deal being such a bad move that it makes one of the worst franchises ever look worse than ever should insulate the rest of the NFL from having to follow suit.  Saying every team has to give a zillion guaranteed bucks to their QB because the Browns did it is like saying everyone has to shoot themselves in the foot in order to see if the bullet will bounce off their steel toed boot because a dude I went to school with did it in 1996.

We saw it happen, we saw it was a terrible idea...we shouldn't be compelled to jump off a bridge because the Browns did it first.

Right, but now the agent's want it. I think Agents are responsible for most problems.

[007BengalsFan]

If you are going to use the excuse these guys should be paid what they are worth you should also support no guaranteed contracts so when they are not playing up to their worth, they can be cut.  Why should any player be given a huge guaranteed contract when there is no guarantee from the player they will play at that level.  Football is turning into baseball with these guaranteed contracts.  Remember Joey Votto, pay the guy what he is worth.  The Reds did pay Votto and Votto proceeded to stink for years and the Reds could do nothing about it because Votto had that huge guaranteed contract he wasnt worth.  Pay me what I am worth unless Im not playing that good but keep paying me as if I am.

[Bengalbug]

(09-13-2024, 03:17 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: If you are going to use the excuse these guys should be paid what they are worth you should also support no guaranteed contracts so when they are not playing up to their worth, they can be cut.  Why should any player be given a huge guaranteed contract when there is no guarantee from the player they will play at that level.  Football is turning into baseball with these guaranteed contracts.  Remember Joey Votto, pay the guy what he is worth.  The Reds did pay Votto and Votto proceeded to stink for years and the Reds could do nothing about it because Votto had that huge guaranteed contract he wasnt worth.  Pay me what I am worth unless Im not playing that good but keep paying me as if I am.

2nd Team MLB All Decade-- Joey Votto (CIN): Votto started the decade by winning the 2010 NL MVP Award, and the Reds cornerstone led his league in on-base percentage seven of the 10 years -- one of three hitters to do so, along with Hall of Famers Ted Williams (1940s) and Rogers Hornsby ('20s).

His massive contract started in 2014. Of course he wasn’t going to be an MVP at 40, but he was arguably a top 5 player in all of MLB from 205-2017.

The 10 year deals that get signed in baseball are essentially their final ride. In football, the 3-5 year deals can still leave them in their prime.

I do find it weird that in the most physical sport of the big 3, that football players are payed the least, with the least amount of monetary protection.

[Whatever]

The reality of the situation is, sure, the Bengals can choose to die on the hill over escalating guarantees. And if you're cool watching that level of team, plug in some of your old VHS tapes from the '90's, because the other 31 teams have normalized it. We'll basically have a team full of guys on rookie deals and guys that can't make another roster.

We can debate the principal, but the reality is, $30 mil guaranteed at signing is extremely poor compared to what other teams are giving comparable players.

[Bengalbug]

(09-13-2024, 03:43 PM)Whatever Wrote: The reality of the situation is, sure, the Bengals can choose to die on the hill over escalating guarantees. And if you're cool watching that level of team, plug in some of your old VHS tapes from the '90's, because the other 31 teams have normalized it. We'll basically have a team full of guys on rookie deals and guys that can't make another roster.

We can debate the principal, but the reality is, $30 mil guaranteed at signing is extremely poor compared to what other teams are giving comparable players.

He should have just signed it and got an insurance policy in the event he had a truly career ending injury. Anything other than a career ending injury, he would see the full contract plus some… see AJ green.

[casear2727]

(09-13-2024, 03:53 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: He should have just signed it and got an insurance policy in the event he had a truly career ending injury. Anything other than a career ending injury, he would see the full contract plus some… see AJ green.

Chase definitely has an injury policy in place this season and will have until he gets the big contract he wants.

[007BengalsFan]

(09-13-2024, 03:35 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: 2nd Team MLB All Decade-- Joey Votto (CIN): Votto started the decade by winning the 2010 NL MVP Award, and the Reds cornerstone led his league in on-base percentage seven of the 10 years -- one of three hitters to do so, along with Hall of Famers Ted Williams (1940s) and Rogers Hornsby ('20s).

His massive contract started in 2014.  Of course he wasn’t going to be an MVP at 40, but he was arguably a top 5 player in all of MLB from 205-2017.

The 10 year deals that get signed in baseball are essentially their final ride.  In football, the 3-5 year deals can still leave them in their prime.  

I do find it weird that in the most physical sport of the big 3, that football players are payed the least, with the least amount of monetary protection.

You dont pay a player a massive 10 contract for them to be great 4 seasons and to have them not so great the next 6.  That's the problem with guaranteed contracts.  Guys want to be paid what they are worth until they arent worth it any longer but they still want to be paid as if they are.  How about not having guaranteed contracts and if you get cut you are free to sign with a team that will pay you want you are worth?  That sounds fair doesnt it?  Get paid for what you are worth.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-13-2024, 12:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I feel like the Watson deal being such a bad move that it makes one of the worst franchises ever look worse than ever should insulate the rest of the NFL from having to follow suit.  Saying every team has to give a zillion guaranteed bucks to their QB because the Browns did it is like saying everyone has to shoot themselves in the foot in order to see if the bullet will bounce off their steel toed boot because a dude I went to school with did it in 1996.

We saw it happen, we saw it was a terrible idea...we shouldn't be compelled to jump off a bridge because the Browns did it first.

Yet since that move the amount of guaranteed money in contracts has skyrocketed, across the board.

[*Nately120*]

(09-13-2024, 04:34 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yet since that move the amount of guaranteed money in contracts has skyrocketed, across the board.

Maybe if it stops being effective it'll stop being used, like drafting RBs #1 overall or barefoot kickers.  I can tell you if an NFL player wants guaranteed money and drops Deshaun Watson's name he probably isn't helping his argument. 

[SunsetBengal]

(09-13-2024, 07:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe if it stops being effective it'll stop being used, like drafting RBs #1 overall or barefoot kickers.  I can tell you if an NFL player wants guaranteed money and drops Deshaun Watson's name he probably isn't helping his argument. 

Prices that shoot up, rarely go back down to where they were previously. Once a precedent is established in negotiations, it's tough to get a side to go back to a previous position. 

With that said, I'm not against guaranteed contracts. I just feel like that is should be conducted on equal grounds. For example a wealthy ownership group should not be able to unfairly set a precedent that is tough to match by other owners.

[*Nately120*]

(09-13-2024, 07:22 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Prices that shoot up, rarely go back down to where they were previously. Once a precedent is established in negotiations, it's tough to get a side to go back to a previous position. 

With that said, I'm not against guaranteed contracts. I just feel like that is should be conducted on equal grounds. For example a wealthy ownership group should not be able to unfairly set a precedent that is tough to match by other owners.

Well, the NFL is a monopolistic oligarchy, of a sort but it's capitalistic enough for it to be expected to be unfair as a rule and slanted towards those who are able to write the biggest checks. 

[SunsetBengal]

(09-13-2024, 07:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, the NFL is a monopolistic oligarchy, of a sort but it's capitalistic enough for it to be expected to be unfair as a rule and slanted towards those who are able to write the biggest checks. 

That goes against every NFL rule that was imposed for the specific reason of creating parity.

[casear2727]

(09-13-2024, 07:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That goes against every NFL rule that was imposed for the specific reason of creating parity.

But it is not true.  See how Haslem has handled the cap in Cleveland.

The ability to guarantee more money is a clear advantage.

The ability to manipulate the cap with multiple large restructures utilizing cash is a clear advantage.

The Bengals do not do either and it's not due to principle.... 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-13-2024, 03:35 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: 2nd Team MLB All Decade-- Joey Votto (CIN): Votto started the decade by winning the 2010 NL MVP Award, and the Reds cornerstone led his league in on-base percentage seven of the 10 years -- one of three hitters to do so, along with Hall of Famers Ted Williams (1940s) and Rogers Hornsby ('20s).

His massive contract started in 2014.  Of course he wasn’t going to be an MVP at 40, but he was arguably a top 5 player in all of MLB from 205-2017.

The 10 year deals that get signed in baseball are essentially their final ride.  In football, the 3-5 year deals can still leave them in their prime.  

I do find it weird that in the most physical sport of the big 3, that football players are payed the least, with the least amount of monetary protection.

MLB contracts everyone knows that the players won't be worth it for the final 2-3 years. It's pretty much accepted that at the beginning of the contract the players will be underpaid for the value they produce, and at the end they'll be overpaid for the value they produce.

Votto did well during his contract, he was 41% above average offensively for his first 8 years of it. The Reds ownership just sucks and failed to draft, develop, and sign a team around him.

Football players are paid the least because there's the most of them. All the leagues have a roughly 50/50 split, but 50% split by 15 guys (NBA) or 26 guys (MLB) is going to be more per person than 50% split by 53 guys. 

I think MLB is still tougher money-wise because the guys you see in the majors are the wheat and there's a TON of chaff that gets discarded in the minors before a guy ever has a chance to get any kind of real money. Until very recently guys in the minors were making like $6k during the season, living with either 3-5 roommates or in sponsor families homes eating nothing but PBJ and then in the offseason having to find jobs (they weren't paid for spring training, so if they were a non-roster invitee they needed to save money to pay for that if they got the offer).

In the NFL if you get drafted you have very good odds of making an NFL roster for at least 1 year ($795k).

In MLB if you get drafted, they have 20 rounds and while it used to be MUCH worse until recently, you can get as little as a $10-25k signing bonus (but often $50k-150k). Then playing an entire season in rookie ball will get you another $19,800. Then the next year you play Low A and High A ball for $26.5k for the season. You can be in the minors like that for multiple years making $20-30k per year, and if you manage to get to the majors you then have 3 years at league minimum before you reach arbitration to start getting real money. Won't get your first FA until 7 years in, and by then you can be 30-31 years old.

The cream of the crop get paid better in baseball and you can earn for longer if you make it, but overall the NFL money is better, even more so with college NIL money now. Plus you never have to live and play in little podunk minor league towns for years, traveling for ages by bus. Lol

(09-13-2024, 04:22 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: You dont pay a player a massive 10 contract for them to be great 4 seasons and to have them not so great the next 6.  That's the problem with guaranteed contracts.  Guys want to be paid what they are worth until they arent worth it any longer but they still want to be paid as if they are.  How about not having guaranteed contracts and if you get cut you are free to sign with a team that will pay you want you are worth?  That sounds fair doesnt it?  Get paid for what you are worth.

Players are getting paid what they're worth, and what they're worth is whatever contract an owner is willing to give them. 

It's funny I never see people arguing to pay a player what they're worth by saying we should abolish the fixed rookie contracts, or the 5th year options, or the franchise tag. It always seems to be "what they're worth, so long as it's a worse situation than they currently are getting". Heck, if you want players to truly be paid what they're worth make every player hit free agency every single offseason and everyone will have a free-for-all bidding war for the best players to join their team that season.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-13-2024, 08:02 PM)casear2727 Wrote: But it is not true.  See how Haslem has handled the cap in Cleveland.

The ability to guarantee more money is a clear advantage.

The ability to manipulate the cap with multiple large restructures utilizing cash is a clear advantage.

The Bengals do not do either due to principle.... 

Do they not because of principal or because they simply cannot due to lack of liquid capital?

[*Nately120*]

(09-13-2024, 07:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That goes against every NFL rule that was imposed for the specific reason of creating parity.

As long as winning leads to more revenue you'll never get true parity. 

[casear2727]

(09-13-2024, 08:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Do they not because of principal or because they simply cannot due to lack of liquid capital?

Thats what I was trying to convey (poorly), it is not due to "principle", they have never (seemingly) been able to afford to be that creative.  

[samhain]

(09-13-2024, 08:55 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Thats what I was trying to convey (poorly), it is not due to "principle", they have never (seemingly) been able to afford to be that creative.  

I'm afraid that I agree with you.

The Chase thing doesn't just suck because Ja'marr didn't get an extension.  It sucks because it's basically the first real sign that they might not be able to hang with the rest of the league in terms of cash flow. Or, (since that's mostly a given) that they will run into major competitive disadvantages as a direct result.  The cap has insulated them, but the guaranteed money could really turn them into a Reds-like entity.