The real problem - The Trenches

[Destro]

Cincinnati Riddlers. More question marks on this team than anything.

[pulses]

(10-28-2024, 03:50 PM)Au165 Wrote: It doesn't matter how many scouts you have, the guys who stacks the board holds the power. The Cowboys have a ton of scouts but Jerry sets the board with his son...if you have an army of information someone has to make a decision on what you do with it. We have had a ton of situations, as most teams do, where there are two players on the board and they obviously scouted both (we have reports they were at pro days and on campus) and yet we choose the wrong player. It's not an issue we don't know about the best guys, the issue is we do an awful job on deciding how those guys project to the NFL.

Just goes to show our decision makers are shit.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Let’s look at a positive for the Bengals: Amarius Mims.

He is Top 15 in the NFL in PFF’s pass blocking efficiency metric on true pass sets - 0 QB hits allowed, 0 sacks allowed.

Here is the company that puts him in.

Pretty impressive for a rookie. pic.twitter.com/stOinGrZWa

— Gridiron Grading (@GridironGrading) October 28, 2024

[sonofstat]

(10-28-2024, 05:42 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Let’s look at a positive for the Bengals: Amarius Mims.

He is Top 15 in the NFL in PFF’s pass blocking efficiency metric on true pass sets - 0 QB hits allowed, 0 sacks allowed.

Here is the company that puts him in.

Pretty impressive for a rookie. pic.twitter.com/stOinGrZWa

— Gridiron Grading (@GridironGrading) October 28, 2024

He's been an absolute godsend ... imagine if he was an Isiah Prince type out there at RT.

Although even on Mims ...there's a part of me thinking that unless Trent Brown got himself injured then Pollack and Taylor would still be rolling him out there and accepting mediocre play when they were sitting on a viable , upgrade option

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-28-2024, 06:10 PM)sonofstat Wrote: He's been an absolute godsend ... imagine if he was an Isiah Prince type out there at RT.

Although even on Mims ...there's a part of me thinking that unless Trent Brown got himself injured then Pollack and Taylor would still be rolling him out there and accepting mediocre play when they were sitting on a viable , upgrade option

Mims has had some rough moments tbf. This is just on true pass sets. Brown would probably still be the better option had he not gotten injured.

[NUGDUKWE]

(10-28-2024, 11:13 AM)Synric Wrote: The issue isn't the number of scouts. Hell most teams area scouts pull double duty with scouting services. The issue is the Front Office guys who stack the board from those scouting reports. I would guess it's Mike Potts, Duke Tobin, the HC, and Coordinators that do most of the board stacking. 

The issue is we under value the talent we see in front of us and think we can draft any old player to replace them. Most draft picks are busts or just decent players. You can't let your talented players walk. I know some of the recent ones have been FA but it's all the same once they are in the building. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Amarius Mims is terrific but don’t worry. Frank Pollack will coach the natural ability out of him by Week Ten.

[WildCat]

we don't care about the trenches. at least not for 33 years. it's always been about the QB and a #1 WR or #1 RB. the shit that sells tickets. and gives you a reason to buy tickets. and at the very least merch. i haven't seen this change. certainly not since wyche was fired. they're going to ruin burrow and chase.

[WildCat]

the cincinnati bengals ruining careers for most of my life and most of yours lol. but at least those guys got paid. we got embarrassed.

[3wt]

(10-28-2024, 11:23 AM)Whatever Wrote: You realize Burrow is statistically the LEAST pressured QB in the league?  He's only pressured on 13.6% of his drop backs.

This is the big problem with the ol' eye test.  Our DL gets next to no pressure, so people evaluating our OL think they should look like the opposing OL looks.  At least in pass pro, they've been good.  Everyone gets pressured, but because our DL sucks, things look worse than they are.

And our RB's are trash.  Utter trash.  We're not a great run blocking line, but put a true stud RB back there and they'll look a lot better.

Mixon looks a LOT better with Houston than he did with us.

Which indicates our coaching staff did not correctly identify the problem.

[Frank Booth]

(10-29-2024, 01:21 PM)3wt Wrote: Mixon looks a LOT better with Houston than he did with us.

Which indicates our coaching staff did not correctly identify the problem.

the bengals run scheme is outdated. But they switched to it because the o-line was so unathletic. 

but the main problem with that whole situation is Pollack and Zac Taylor come from zone blocking schemes. The o-line personnel is literally a giant misfit to the coaches specialty. 

So the front office coulvde gotten good zone guys, which require a bit more money. But they opted for guys who are ok, but come at a discount because of their lack of athleticism. So either blame the front office for not giving the zone guys proper zone personnel, or blame pollack and taylor for not adapting. 

I personally blame the FO. It's like hiring Marty Schottenheimer, and then giving him a team that is incapable of running the ball to eat clock. It's a poor fit

[reuben.ahmed]

Like Jameis Winston said after the Browns game: the offensive line dominates, the defensive line dominates - you win.

[SunsetBengal]

Somehow I missed this article in August, when it was written. Copies of this article should be emailed to everyone in the organization, along with a picture of Joe Burrow in the hospital from his knee reconstruction.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2024/8/14/24219153/cincinnati-bengals-offensive-line-nfl-draft-history-duke-tobin

Quote:The Bengals, the draft, the O-line, and Duke Tobin: A decade of missed opportunities
Things haven’t been great for the Bengals when it comes to evaluating offensive linemen in the pre-draft process. Something needs to change.

By Jason Garrison@JasonRG83 Aug 14, 2024, 12:35pm EDT 100 Comments / 100 New

The Cincinnati Bengals appointed Duke Tobin as the team’s Director of Player Personnel in 1999. They were leaving the entire decade of the ‘90s in the rearview mirror as they forged their path into the new millennium. Three short years later, the team hired Marvin Lewis, who brought the Bengals back to relevance.

All the while, Tobin worked in the background. While he doesn’t carry the label of General Manager, and he likely never will, he does act as the team’s de facto GM. He, Mike Brown, Katie, and Troy Blackburn have guided the team through a changing league.

In his time with the Bengals, he has helped the front office navigate three different CBA agreements and two NFL Commissioners in a league that has gone through massive changes over the last 25 years. He helped hire three head coaches and countless assistants and helped the team get to the postseason nine times and to the Super Bowl once.

By all accounts, he has been one of the more successful “GMs” in the league.

However, since the 2013 season, he and the Bengals have absolutely failed when it comes to evaluating incoming offensive linemen at all three positions. With a couple of exceptions, the offensive linemen they’ve selected in the draft, in any round, have hurt the team more than they’ve helped.

Here’s a history:

2013
Drafted linemen

Tanner Hawkinson (TE in college, drafted to play OL), 5th round (156), Kansas
Reid Fragel, OL, 7th round (240), Ohio State
TJ Johnson, C, 7th round (251), South Carolina
Hawkinson, Fragel, and Johnson combined to play in 50 NFL games (45 of which were Johnson’s appearances), but they also combined for 5 starts (all Johnson’s). Hawkinson and Fragel both played for other teams following their respective releases from the Bengals, but neither played more than 30 regular-season snaps in their careers, and both spent the vast majority of their time on different practice squads.


This wasn’t so terrible, considering the linemen were late-round picks, and one was a converted tight end.

Hindsight Grade: C

2014
Drafted Linemen:

Russell Bodine, C, 4th round (111), North Carolina
Bodine came in and replaced Kyle Cook, who was released in March of 2014, as the team’s starting center. He held that position for four seasons and then one season as the Bills starting center. Per PFF, he averaged a run block score of 64.5 and a pass block score of 66.6 in the four years he spent as the team’s starting center. In those four years, he gave up 12 sacks.

After he left Cincinnati, he was signed by the Bills as the team’s backup center but took over in Week 3 of the 2018 season. He held that position for 10 weeks before a season-ending injury landed him on IR. The following year, he was traded to the Patriots but was released just two months later and hasn’t played another snap since.

Again, though, we’re talking about a Day 3 pick who started for the team for multiple seasons.

Hindsight Grade: B-

2015
Drafted Linemen:

Cedric Ogbuehi, OT, 1st round (21), Texas A&M
Jake Fisher, OT, 2nd Round (53), Oregon

This offensive line draft class was a disaster for the Bengals and set the offensive back years. The Bengals had future Hall of Fame (hopefully) Andrew Whitworth at left tackle and Andre Smith Jr. at right tackle in 2015. Ogbuehi started the majority of his second season at right tackle before he took over for Whitworth in 2017.

In 2016, Whitworth was PFF’s top-ranked offensive tackle. Ogbuehi was No. 57. When Whitworth left to go to the Rams, Ogbuehi moved from right to left tackle, but the play didn’t improve. The shift from Whitworth to Ogbuehi at left tackle was devastating for the Bengals. In fact, he was so bad that the Bengals declined his fifth-year option, and he spent most of his final year in Cincinnati as a healthy scratch before leaving for free agency the following season.


He didn’t catch on for any of the three teams he played for over the following three years.

Fisher never consistently started for the Bengals. He was primarily a backup for both right and left tackle, with a handful of starts over his four years. After his time with the Bengals was up, he tried to convert to tight end with the Bills but was cut before the season.

He never played another down in the NFL.

Hindsight Grade: F

2016
Drafted Linemen:

Christian Westerman, G, 5th round (161), Arizona State
Westerman started two games at left guard for the Bengals, which isn’t nearly enough to get an accurate sample size of his potential. Once the Bengals were done with him, he never played for another team.

Sensing a trend here.

Hindsight Grade: D-

2017
Drafted Linemen:

JJ Dielman, C, 5th round (176), Utah
Dielman was a career practice squad player for the Bengals, Rams, Broncos, Seahawks, and Patriots. He never played a snap in a regular-season NFL game.

Hindsight Grade: F

2018
Drafted Linemen:

Billy Price, C, 1st round (21), Ohio State
Rod Taylor, G, 7th round (252), Mississippi
Price came with a lot of promise. Center had been a problem position for the Bengals for several years, and Price seemed like he would be the fix. He missed a good portion of his rookie season with a foot injury, but he was still named to the PFWA All-Rookie Team.

Price struggled badly the following season, losing his starting job to Trey Hopkins. He started several games as a left guard that season but gave up an astounding 29 pressures. PFF ranked him as the 122nd guard in the NFL that year. The Bengals declined his 5th-year option and somehow convinced the New York Giants to take him in a straight-up trade for BJ Hill, who has been a major asset to Lou Anarumo’s defense.

You may not remember Taylor, which wouldn’t be surprising because he never played a snap in the regular season. He lost his rookie season thanks to a preseason ACL injury, and then he was suspended for violating the league's PED policy. Then, he was suspended again and eventually received an indefinite ban from the NFL.

Hindsight Grade: F

2019
Drafted Linemen:

Jonah Williams, OT, 1st round (11), Alabama
Michael Jordan, G, 4th round (136), Ohio State
Williams missed his rookie season with a torn labrum he suffered in OTAs and then took over the left tackle position in 2020, where he played decently but still missed several games due to injury. However, over the 2021 and 2022 seasons, he gave up 10 and 13 sacks, respectively (including playoffs), and made the move to right tackle when the Bengals acquired Orlando Brown Jr. in free agency. He’s now a member of the Arizona Cardinals.


Jordan started nine games as a left guard in his rookie season and then 10 games in 2020. He gave up nine sacks in that time and was waived before the 2021 season. He has since spent time with the Panthers and Packers, and he was signed by the Patriots in January.

Hindsight Grade: C

2020
Drafted Linemen:

Hakeem Adeniji, OT/G, 6th round (180), Kansas
The Bengals began the Joe Burrow era in 2020, and the only selection they used in that year’s draft on the offensive line was on Adeniji, who was a member of the team’s patchwork line over the next couple of seasons. He started every game at right guard from Week 9 on in 2021 and gave up nine sacks, including three in the Super Bowl.

Then, once he took over for La’el Collins the following year at right tackle, he gave up three sacks in the AFC Championship game. He was waived the following offseason.

Hindsight Grade: Again, considering the late-round pick, it’s not terrible. It’s not great, either. C-

2021
Drafted Linemen:

Jackson Carman, OT/G, 2nd round (46), Clemson
D’Ante Smith, OT, 4th round (139), East Carolina
Trey Hill, IOL, 6th round (190), Georgia
We’re getting to guys currently on the roster. Carman is a well-known problem to modern Bengals fans. He was selected in the second round of the ‘21 draft. He played left tackle at Clemson, but the Bengals reportedly liked him at guard. He struggled at guard, and when he was moved to tackle, he struggled there as well. Despite a couple of bright spots, Jackson hasn’t lived up to his second-round promise.

Smith has played in a handful of snaps over his tenure in Cincinnati but was never able to move up the depth chart, and the same goes for Hill.

Both Smith and Hill are on the outside looking in when it comes to making the 2024 53-man roster, and with Carman’s performance in the team’s first preseason game, he could be on the outs too and probably should be.

Hindsight Grade: F

2022
Drafted Linemen:

Cordell Volson, G, 4th round (136), North Dakota St.
The following sentence is a tough pill to swallow.

Coldell Volson is probably the best or second-best offensive lineman the Bengals have drafted over the last 10 years.

The reason it’s a sad sentence is that Volson has been a mediocre left guard in the NFL and has played very poorly at times in the past. Overall, he’s not the worst, but certainly not the best. He improved slightly between his rookie and sophomore seasons, but the Bengals will need him to make a jump in year three. They have, on paper, the best line of the Burrow era. It would be sad to see Volson hold them back.

Hindsight Grade: C

2023
Drafted Linemen:

None
Hindsight Grade: N/A

2024
Drafted Linemen:

Amarius Mims, OT, 1st Round (18), Georgia
Matt Lee, C, 7th Round (237), Miami (Fl)
It’s too early to tell whether or not Mims and Lee have what it takes to make it in the league. They’ve seen only a little bit of game action, and it was just a preseason game. Directly after, it was announced Mims would miss “several weeks” with a pectoral strain. There were concerns about Mims’ durability before he was selected by the Bengals. His ability to stay healthy and the relatively low amount of snaps were the only two knocks on him. It’s too early to tell if this pectoral strain is a sign of things to come.

We have been saying, “I’m sure happy the Bengals drafted Mims if Trent Brown isn’t available.” Now, we could find ourselves in a position where we’re thankful we signed Brown because of Mims’ availability.

There is some excitement about Lee, but it’s far too early to tell.

Hindsight Grade: The jury is out.

Conclusion
The Bengals have been far better at signing established free agents that were drafted by someone else to play on their offensive line than they have been at drafting them, but that’s not sustainable.

Four of their five starting offensive linemen (including Trent Brown right now) were signed in free agency, and Volson is the lone player drafted and developed by the team. He’s probably the worst offensive lineman of the starting five, as well.

Trent Brown will be a free agent after the 2024 season. Cappa, Karras, and Volson will be free agents after the 2025 season. Orlando Brown will be a free agent after the 2026 season. The Bengals are going to have to extend or replace every position on the offensive line within the next three seasons. They have Mims in waiting, but they have nothing if he has durability issues.

They paid Joe Burrow big money, and they’re likely about to do the same thing for Ja’Marr Chase. They won’t be able to afford to bring established free agents in to replace the guys that leave. They probably won’t even have enough to extend everyone they have, despite most of them will be over 30 years old.

They’re going to have to look to the draft for the future of the line, but based on what we’ve seen over the last decade, how much trust can we place in Tobin and the front office to make the call? Right now, their ability to draft and develop linemen resembles the ability of a blind squirrel to find a nut: sometimes, they get lucky enough to find a Volson or Williams.

So, what needs to change?

Nobody needs to be fired, but it’s clear the team's process when evaluating offensive linemen heading into the draft is severely flawed. It could just come down to creating some new position in the front office just to help the team get their ducks in a row when it comes to drafting linemen. They’ve changed so much over the last few years that it’s not out of the realm of possibility. The team did add passing game coordinator Justin Rascati this offseason. That’s a new position.

And it can’t be stressed enough that Tobin has done a great job overall in free agency, including the offensive line, which has helped alleviate many of the issues from missing draft picks. He’s a big part of why the Bengals are in the midst of one of the best runs in franchise history. If they can start hitting on these o-line draft picks, it could easily become the best era of Bengals football there has been and maybe ever will be.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. Ten years is a long time to learn a lesson the hard way. Hopefully, they’ve learned, though.

Something needs to change.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-29-2024, 01:40 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Somehow I missed this article in August, when it was written.  Copies of this article should be emailed to everyone in the organization, along with a picture of Joe Burrow in the hospital from his knee reconstruction.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2024/8/14/24219153/cincinnati-bengals-offensive-line-nfl-draft-history-duke-tobin

If "they" want to have any prayer of reaching the promised land with Joe Burrow they have to totally change how they draft Olinman. 

And Dlineman for that matter. They're missing waayyyyyyy to often.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-28-2024, 05:42 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Let’s look at a positive for the Bengals: Amarius Mims.

He is Top 15 in the NFL in PFF’s pass blocking efficiency metric on true pass sets - 0 QB hits allowed, 0 sacks allowed.

Here is the company that puts him in.

Pretty impressive for a rookie. pic.twitter.com/stOinGrZWa

— Gridiron Grading (@GridironGrading) October 28, 2024

I have hope for Mims

It's the 3 interior Oline that need replaced.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-29-2024, 02:15 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: If "they" want to have any prayer of reaching the promised land with Joe Burrow they have to totally change how they draft Olinman. 

And Dlineman for that matter. They're missing waayyyyyyy to often.

What often gets lost in the romanticism over the "athletic" pass blocking specialist, is that they are commonly thought of as "finesse" players. Pass blocking is a skill that can be taught and enhanced, the desire to move the man in front of you is a quality that either you're born with, or you don't have.

[SunsetBengal]

Being able to identify players with the talent to make it in the NFL and fully develop them into competent starters is more important than ever, as the NCAA is putting out fewer and fewer plug and play ready prospects. If you think that I don't know what I'm talking about, consider this; Fred Johnson, Bobby Hart and Michael Jordan are all currently employed as OL in the NFL.

Obviously the people picking the talent for the Bengals aren't knowledgeable enough to identify which prospects have the traits and talent to look good at the college level and which ones have what it takes to become a household name in the NFL. We can complain about coaching and schemes and such, and they may be suspect as well, but it all starts with providing the coaching staff with bodies who are qualified to get the job done at the fundamental level of the game.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-29-2024, 04:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What often gets lost in the romanticism over the "athletic" pass blocking specialist, is that they are commonly thought of as "finesse" players. Pass blocking is a skill that can be taught and enhanced, the desire to move the man in front of you is a quality that either you're born with, or you don't have.

Indeed !!

You gotta have that mean streak, that indomitable will to destroy the man in front of you.

I hate the passive "catch run blocking" you see so much of today.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Out of 79 qualified guards this season, Cordell Volson ranks #79/79 in pressures allowed with 27 total.

Alex Cappa ranks #77/79 with 25
total pressures allowed.

It is time to shift some chairs and give Matt Lee a chance at C.

— Gridiron Grading (@GridironGrading) November 8, 2024

[Nicomo Cosca]

Carter, Shelvin, Jenkins, Jackson.. what did they all have in common?

Pass rushing production profiles under the 55th percentile average in college.

Hope and development is not a strategy that is working here.

— Gridiron Grading (@GridironGrading) November 8, 2024